Violent video games + children =...?

kage_rod

My dumbass brother, Drew, decided to show Grand Theft Auto 4 to my older brother, Hugh, who was over with his kids and fiance for Mother's Day. However, Hugh was busy cooking, so Drew just sat down and played it while my nephew, Dusty, who's going to kindergarten next year, sits down and watches it.

I'm unsure if it's just because of his age or his personality, but this kid is -really- impressionable. It drives me crazy to hear him swearing and using insults I don't let Scouts (Jr High to lower High School aged) kids using. His mother, I think, has completely given up on it except for a few half-hearted tries, while his father, my brother, tries to stop him. Now, with this impressionability, for some reason Drew and his mom thinks it's ALRIGHT to let him watch GTA 4. I don't care if they both say, "It's not real", it's still watching violence at a young age unnecessarily. I told Drew afterwards, in a fit of rage, that if he ever played any violent games like that around our nephew again, I'd be breaking his game discs - it's fine if his mother is so lenient and lets her kids see age-inappropriate things, but he shouldn't be doing the same thing.

Am I wrong in thinking that it might harm the kid? I tried not to make too big of a deal out of it while he was there, but it still really bothered me. I think it's irresponsible and possibly damaging, but I don't have any kids of my own, nor do I have any chance to see any long term effects like a parent might.

Omnutia

The easy way to do things would be to treat games as films with the same content.

edifolco25

The easy way to do things would be to treat games as films with the same content.

That's the most logical way to look at it. I agree with your reaction Kage_Rod, I'd probably have said something to him as well if he was my brother. When I was playing GTA: SA and my sister brought over my niece and nephew, I turned off the game. They are 4 and 5 and I don't think they should be listened to someone saying the F-word and the N-word every 20 seconds while I'm running over pedestrians.

...

Am I wrong in thinking that it might harm the kid?

Of course. It's perfectly acceptable to let a little toddler watch his big cousin mow down grandmothers with uzis with high definition blood splatters flying around, swing chainsaws around, decapitating images left and right and getting in game money for it. Of course, said big cousin could also go the non-violent path, and just pick up random hookers and show the fuck scenes that result. Of course said little toddler will be able to determine by himself that it's all fake, not real, and won't get heavily influenced by it.

Fucking idiot parents.

Katsu

I honestly feel that exposing children to violent depictions in media, with the children in question having a visceral understanding of pain and the consequences for actions, is not a problem.

Would you also prevent the child from learning of human history, as blood-stained as it is?

...

Would you also prevent the child from learning of human history, as blood-stained as it is?

If he or she is still in kindergarten, yes. And the child will figure out himself that the wars weren't without blood or gruesome crimes eventually. No need to show them graphically at an age when they're still mentally developing their own consciousness.

Andrew

Here is an idea, why not play the game with you child and talk to them about it. Maybe you can actually teach them a thing or two about our world. I suppose it's just easier to ban video games instead of actually parent your children...

I think the one of the reasons why the world is as fucked up is that parents think their babies should be protected from this world and don't actually teach them a thing. The world isn't bubblewrapped, the sooner your child learns this, the better IMHO.

edifolco25

Here is an idea, why not play the game with you child and talk to them about it. Maybe you can actually teach them a thing or two about our world. I suppose it's just easier to ban video games instead of actually parent your children...

I think the one of the reasons why the world is as fucked up is that parents think their babies should be protected from this world and don't actually teach them a thing. The world isn't bubblewrapped, the sooner your child learns this, the better IMHO.

Or here's an even CRAZIER idea! Why not play a game thats more age appropriate for the child instead of selfishly playing the game you want to play while not caring at all about the child?

Seriously, you do realize there's a difference between letting a child know that the world isn't bubblewrapped and poking them with a sharp stick to drive the point home, right?

Also, you do realize that's quite a leap from "I don't think its appropriate to let a small child watch Grand Theft Auto" to "BAN THE GAMES!!!" right? Do I think video games should be banned? No, of course not. However, I also question the parent that would let a small child watch someone play Grand Theft Auto. It's simply not age appropriate.

You'll never hear me say you should ban any video game, nor would you ever hear me say that kids shouldn't play video games. Who do you think got my nephew into gaming in the first place? However, I didn't play Grand Theft Auto with him. I played Donkey Kong, Pac Man, Frogger and other simple games he'd be able to play. At the age of 5 he was pretty darned good at Dig Dug right off the bat.

What is the deal with people today who think that kids are tiny adults and should be awaken to the horrors of the world as early as possible? What ever happened to letting kids be kids for a bit?

Katsu

Seriously, you do realize there's a difference between letting a child know that the world isn't bubblewrapped and poking them with a sharp stick to drive the point home, right?

There is a difference, yes, but the latter option, I believe, has faster rates of comprehension.

edifolco25

Seriously, you do realize there's a difference between letting a child know that the world isn't bubblewrapped and poking them with a sharp stick to drive the point home, right?

There is a difference, yes, but the latter option, I believe, has faster rates of comprehension.

Ok, that made me laugh out loud. Seriously though, if your five year old asks you "where do babies come from?" you can either give them the five year old answer about "when a man and woman loves each other" spiel, or you could take them to redtube. "See Timmy, that's what we call a Cleveland Steamer... didn't we tell you that everybody poops?"

Katsu

Honestly, I would tell them the biological realities of procreation, and warn them that deeper understanding of the subject will have to wait until their brains have reached the point where it can wrap the mind around the more messy concepts.

Andrew

What is the deal with people today who think that kids are tiny adults and should be awaken to the horrors of the world as early as possible? What ever happened to letting kids be kids for a bit?

What does it mean to be a kid? How many times did you sneak a peak at a porno mag when you were young? Or watch an animal die? Or break a bone? These are all life lessons and whether you like it or not your kids are going to be exposed to these ideas when they are young. Now how young is probably debatable but if you just try to prevent them from ever being a kid (which means let them have room to hurt themselves a little and experience life) then they will never be balanced.

I'm not saying we should force our kids to play GTA IV and obviously not if they are super young. But by the time kids are around 9-10 they are going to start getting smart about the world whether you like it or not. It will either be you who plays the game with him (and put it in context) or his friend down the street who got his older brother to buy it.

Also, someone show me some scientific studies of the true effect video games have on children. I'm guessing most people blow it way out of proportion. Kids aren't as stupid as we think...

kage_rod

I never said to ban video games - in fact, I believe that certain games can be played at certain ages/maturities, and can be used as tools to show them real life.

I still don't think that my brother should have played GTA 4 with a 5 year old watching. I've said I don't know if there will be any permanent damage, and my brother did try to explain that it wasn't real. However, it's not the violence or swearing I object to - it's the virtues and lifestyle that is being shown. Yeah, some people do that, but I wouldn't want my nephew - or any kid - thinking that's cool. GTA is a mature game, in that it needs a mature and firm grip on reality. There's ratings there for a reason, right?

Sir_Xander

I agree with kage_rod. Games have their place, GTA 4 is a game to play alone or with your adult friends over, I probably would have played something more family friendly or nothing at all. I would have chose something less bloody and realistic, most likely a rental like Spiderman or Super Smash bro's

edifolco25

What is the deal with people today who think that kids are tiny adults and should be awaken to the horrors of the world as early as possible? What ever happened to letting kids be kids for a bit?

What does it mean to be a kid? How many times did you sneak a peak at a porno mag when you were young? Or watch an animal die? Or break a bone? These are all life lessons and whether you like it or not your kids are going to be exposed to these ideas when they are young. Now how young is probably debatable but if you just try to prevent them from ever being a kid (which means let them have room to hurt themselves a little and experience life) then they will never be balanced.

I'm not saying we should force our kids to play GTA IV and obviously not if they are super young. But by the time kids are around 9-10 they are going to start getting smart about the world whether you like it or not. It will either be you who plays the game with him (and put it in context) or his friend down the street who got his older brother to buy it.

Also, someone show me some scientific studies of the true effect video games have on children. I'm guessing most people blow it way out of proportion. Kids aren't as stupid as we think...

You're making such an exaggerated argument. How do you go from, "I dont think this game that was made for 18 year olds is appropriate for kids that are 9 and under" to "You want to keep your kids sheltered forever".

To deal with the points you made: Yes, kids should be free to play and yes sometimes they get hurt even to the point of breaking bones. Accidents happen and are a part of life. That doesn't mean you let your kid ride his/her bike without a helmet thinking, "hey, they gotta learn the world' isn't safe, they can get hurt!"

Kids will be curious and sneak porn. That doesn't mean you take them to redtube and show them where to find the really kinky stuff.

There's a difference between letting kids be free and explore and grow, and forcing them to mature before they are ready by exposing them to stuff they shouldn't be exposed to yet.

Also, your right, you do run the risk of kids being exposed to this stuff when your not around. That's why you should talk to them about it. But talking to your kids about this stuff is different then exposing them to it yourself. I don't need to show my nephew Full Metal Jacket to tell him that the things you see on TV are fake and you shouldn't copy them.

Long story short, I wouldn't let a 9-10 year old watch a gritty R rated movie filled with lots of blood, foul language and sex, and in the same vein, I wouldn't let someone that age watch or play GTA.

Starfox

Lying to kids. It was posted today. I really like a lot of Paul Graham's stuff.

Andrew

Long story short, I wouldn't let a 9-10 year old watch a gritty R rated movie filled with lots of blood, foul language and sex, and in the same vein, I wouldn't let someone that age watch or play GTA.

Why? What reason do you have?

EDIT: Also, you are the only one making exaggerated argument. I never said you should force danger on your children yet you are making my argument equivalent to shoving a three year old to watch porn on purpose. I never said any of those things nor would I endorse such an idea. I feel that as soon as they ask about a topic or ask to play a game you should talk with them and let them know the reality of the situation.

sibnova

Violent video games + kids = o.k. as long as kid common sense can tell them about moral decisions. most children don't understand the concept of death till they are 10 -12 (occasionally earlier)i think grade 5 is OK to let kids play gta2 and upwards. The original GTA is fun for all ages. i personally believe that the GTA range now is using shock value as a major marketing tool, so each game from the second one onwards has it's minimum age increased by about a year.

Personally i think letting kids play violent video game is entirely up to the mental state of the child. a well adjusted, quiet and understanding child should be able to play the game no matter what the age, where as a child who is extremely impressionable, violent and is know to repeat things they see on TV ( like suplexing the cat) still have mental maturing to do.

Tho the argument is valid that violent things make people more violent. if anyone remembers the port Arthur massacre in Hobart Australia, the single biggest none war time shooting massacre in the world and still unfortunately holds that record when he was arrested they found hundreds of hours of Gore movies and Guro porn. the same can be said about the guy who did the killings in japan, after he was caught his apartment was found with hundreds of hour of Tentacle rape anime and the such ( funny side note he is also the guy who claimed to be an Otaku and gave the whole of japan the idea that Otakus are horrid sick twisted people).

People are influenced by what they learn no matter what it all truthfully comes down to the individuals will power, morals, ethics and mental state.

Andrew

Tho the argument is valid that violent things make people more violent. if anyone remembers the port Arthur massacre in Hobart Australia, the single biggest none war time shooting massacre in the world and still unfortunately holds that record when he was arrested they found hundreds of hours of Gore movies and Guro porn. the same can be said about the guy who did the killings in japan, after he was caught his apartment was found with hundreds of hour of Tentacle rape anime and the such ( funny side note he is also the guy who claimed to be an Otaku and gave the whole of japan the idea that Otakus are horrid sick twisted people).

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, my friend. Do you really know that these things were the cause? Again, I ask for scientific, peer reviewed papers on the effect of violence on children. I'm willing to agree with you if you can show comprehensive evidence that your claims are justified.

edifolco25

Long story short, I wouldn't let a 9-10 year old watch a gritty R rated movie filled with lots of blood, foul language and sex, and in the same vein, I wouldn't let someone that age watch or play GTA.

Why? What reason do you have?

EDIT: Also, you are the only one making exaggerated argument. I never said you should force danger on your children yet you are making my argument equivalent to shoving a three year old to watch porn on purpose. I never said any of those things nor would I endorse such an idea. I feel that as soon as they ask about a topic or ask to play a game you should talk with them and let them know the reality of the situation.

I don't recall saying 3 year old. And You're the one who brought up children finding porn and breaking bones and seeing dead animals as some weird counter argument to, "I don't think you should expose a 10 year old to a media with tons of sex, violence and language."

Finally, I never said you shouldn't talk to kids about a topic they asked about. There's a difference between talking to them about it, and breaking out the PS3 and playing it for them with all the before mentioned sex, violence and language. That was the point of my arguments to your porn and bone breaking, that they can learn without you showing them first hand.

Andrew

I don't recall saying 3 year old.

You said five year old which is close enough.

"I don't think you should expose a 10 year old to a media with tons of sex, violence and language."

You never said this.

Also, look what I wrote up above:

I'm not saying we should force our kids to play GTA IV and obviously not if they are super young. But by the time kids are around 9-10 they are going to start getting smart about the world whether you like it or not. It will either be you who plays the game with him (and put it in context) or his friend down the street who got his older brother to buy it.

Since when did I say we should force it on young children? Maybe you should actually READ and not skim.

Finally, I never said you shouldn't talk to kids about a topic they asked about.

You said this in which I think you clearly rejected my idea.

Or here's an even CRAZIER idea! Why not play a game thats more age appropriate for the child instead of selfishly playing the game you want to play while not caring at all about the child?

I was nothing but reasonable in my original statement. However you were the one who started the hyperbole. You are also the first one who brought up porn in the topic.

But none of this matters, what reason do you have to think that video games cause psychological harm to children? Please, I'm willing to believe you if you can just prove it.

sibnova

Tho the argument is valid that violent things make people more violent. if anyone remembers the port Arthur massacre in Hobart Australia, the single biggest none war time shooting massacre in the world and still unfortunately holds that record when he was arrested they found hundreds of hours of Gore movies and Guro porn. the same can be said about the guy who did the killings in japan, after he was caught his apartment was found with hundreds of hour of Tentacle rape anime and the such ( funny side note he is also the guy who claimed to be an Otaku and gave the whole of japan the idea that Otakus are horrid sick twisted people).

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, my friend. Do you really know that these things were the cause? Again, I ask for scientific, peer reviewed papers on the effect of violence on children. I'm willing to agree with you if you can show comprehensive evidence that your claims are justified.

OK How about the American high school student, who managed to pull of a number of head shots without ever having practiced with a gun before. the same goes for the port Arthur massacre.

and anyway I'm not saying that video games and guro porn cause it, but i am saying that it is a major contributor.

Andrew

OK How about the American high school student, who managed to pull of a number of head shots without ever having practiced with a gun before.

What do video games have anything to do with it? They don't even train the same motor skills as firing a weapon. Also, I'm not sure what incident you are talking about.

and anyway I'm not saying that video games and guro porn cause it, but i am saying that it is a major contributor.

Prove it.

sibnova

ok how do you know anything?

i know how to eat an apple because i was shown how to eat an apple.

i can tie my shoes because i practiced doing that everyday and tried my hardest tie them when i was younger.

i like the same movies as my father because at a young age i sat down with him and watched him enjoying them and as a little kid i thought well he is smiling and laughing at this and enjoying and so must I.

i understand computer lingo and jargon because i see other people using it.

i have never fired or held a gun before in my life and thanks to:

1. Americas army i know that you should shoot at the end or start of your breath to minimise the barrel movement.

2. halo i know that you should aim for the weak points in armour

3. Battlefield 1942 i know that cover is the key to surviving

4. counterstrike i know that sniper rifles are great for accurate shooting

5. counterstrike use a shot gun at close range only

6. Americas army always duck when a grenade is thrown to minimize the amount of you that is showing

7. Call of duty i know how to reload a bolt action

8. halo i know that king hitting will hurt some one more than punching some one in the face

9. hit-man a screwdriver is a lethal weapon

10. Americas army i know how to reload a m16 and fix a jammed bullet

I've really only named only 4 games that have taught me about guns and proper ways to kill effectively look at what i know from video games.

Now on to other subjects, thanks to 4chan nothing phases me, i can look at anything and not cringe, blink, shudder and sometimes now i enjoy looking at most of it because my tolerance is much much higher. if i technically keep going on like this then only the real life will be able to cause an emotion strong enough to release endorphins and make me feel good.

kage_rod

Sibnova has a point, even with his horrible punctuation. I do admit video games can teach people horrible things, but at the same time, so can movies. They can also teach good things that are useful for every day life.

The thing is that you need someone impressionable and interested to know those things. I know for sure I wouldn't have learned things like that - I have no interest in it.

While I'm unsure if there's an actual case study, it does seem to point everything towards "Yes, video games can teach violence" - but so can anything else. What do you do?

Andrew

i know how to eat an apple because i was shown how to eat an apple.

No, you eat an apple because it's food. You eat food because you have eaten food before. You've eaten food before because someone shoved it down your throat.

i can tie my shoes because i practiced doing that everyday and tried my hardest tie them when i was younger.

Exactly, you know how to do it because you have actually practiced at the physical activity. You would probably agree that just because you saw someone tie a shoe doesn't mean you know how to tie one. You have to practice the physical motor skills involved.

i like the same movies as my father because at a young age i sat down with him and watched him enjoying them and as a little kid i thought well he is smiling and laughing at this and enjoying and so must I.

Personal opinion, it has no relevance. I'm not even sure where there is a connection to the topic at hand. Is it possible you just like watching the movies because it reminds you of your father?

i understand computer lingo and jargon because i see other people using it.

No, you understand computer lingo and jargon because it's part of a language and you practice a language by reading and hearing it spoken. You have taught yourself by actually doing the activity i.e reading and listening to it.

1. Americas army i know that you should shoot at the end or start of your breath to minimise the barrel movement.

You've never done it so you don't know what it feels like to actually fire a weapon at the end or start of your breath.

2. halo i know that you should aim for the weak points in armour

Weak point in armor? This has nothing to do with real life. Furthermore, if you actually had real weapons training you would know that in a self defense situation you should always aim center mass at your target because you have the greatest chance at hitting them.

3. Battlefield 1942 i know that cover is the key to surviving

You've never been under fire and you don't know what real cover provides. You have never been under a stressful situation like a gunfight so you haven't conditioned your Flight or Fight response to react accordingly to such a condition.

4. counterstrike i know that sniper rifles are great for accurate shooting

Yeah, takes a real genius to figure that out. I can read that in books. Should they be restricted to mature adults only as well?

8. halo i know that king hitting will hurt some one more than punching some one in the face

WTF?! Learn some fucking grammar and basic English. I have no idea what you are saying here but it's probably more bullshit.

9. hit-man a screwdriver is a lethal weapon

Guess it's time for weapons restrictions on basic carpentry tools. (OMG Joseph was a fucking psychopath. No wonder Mary didn't sleep with him)

10. Americas army i know how to reload a m16 and fix a jammed bullet

You know how to press a button to simulate it within a virtual environment. You probably have no idea how an M-16 is constructed nor how to disassemble it for cleaning. You probably don't even know where the safety is on the damn thing.

Now on to other subjects, thanks to 4chan nothing phases me, i can look at anything and not cringe, blink, shudder and sometimes now i enjoy looking at most of it because my tolerance is much much higher.

Oh, I see you really are a fucking psycho. Maybe you are just mentally unstable. Makes much more sense to me.

if i technically keep going on like this then only the real life will be able to cause an emotion strong enough to release endorphins and make me feel good.

Way to go Freud. You are a fucking psychological genius. Do you even know how endorphin effects your brain chemistry? I'm guessing not.

Andrew

While I'm unsure if there's an actual case study, it does seem to point everything towards "Yes, video games can teach violence" - but so can anything else. What do you do?

WTF, no it doesn't?

I demand peer-reviewed studies on the matter, you just can't make broad sweeping arguments like you guys are doing.

Li_Akahi

Certain children are more impressionable than others, therefore it should be the parents responsibility to monitor their children until they gain complete sentience and know what they can handle and know approximately what the negative ramifications for their actions could cause.

Andrew

Certain children are more impressionable than others, therefore it should be the parents responsibility to monitor their children until they gain complete sentience and know what they can handle and know approximately what the negative ramifications for their actions could cause.

Agreed. I'm not saying that it's completely harmless but I think people are making it out to be much more harmful than it really is. However, I could be wrong and I'm hoping someone finds some insight for me.

tranceotaku

Movies and video games teach us nothing about real life and how to behave in it. I played my fair share of Mario Brothers and Zelda for the NES, but I have never been under the impression that eating mushrooms will give me the ability to shoot fireballs. However, with video games increasing in their realness can possibly be influential. I must say though that my father is a big martial arts movie lover, and I watched many with him as a kid. Watching those types of movies did instill a desire to learn martial arts, but never as a practical application in real life. A good example is someone wanting to be a fireman as a kid, but not going around setting fires just to put them out. Maybe some kids are more impressionable than others. Those are the kids that need parents with good parenting skills.

GreatTeacherMacRoss

GTA 4 is an "M" rated game. In my eyes, that's like a "R" rated movie.

I would never let a kindergardener watch an "R" rated movie, therefore, I would not let a child of the same age watch GTA 4 being played.

Seems simple to me.

EDIT: Oh, Sibnova, you need to take a break and think (lots) before you type. I can almost guarantee you would be unpleasantly surprised if you attempted to fix a jam in a semi-automatic rifle, reload an old bolt-action rifle, or attempt some of the other game-practiced pseudo-gun skills. Have you ever tried to shoot a rifle while standing? While moving? It's not as easy as it looks in a video game.