Warhammer 40k 5th Edition

Andrew

From what I can tell, it's getting released July 12th. Are any of you going to pick it up? Hoping for any specific rules changes?

HMTKSteve

If I still played the game I would consider it.

Have they mentioned any major changes?

Andrew

Have they mentioned any major changes?

Nothing insanely major but from what I can tell it's basically a massive overhaul of 4th edition with tons of balancing fixes.

TheWhaleShark

Have they mentioned any major changes?

Nothing insanely major but from what I can tell it's basically a massive overhaul of 4th edition with tons of balancing fixes.

I took a look at a leaked copy of the rules. From what I've seen, they've toned down Rending Attacks, skimmer tanks, and vehicles in general. Rending Attacks now generate automatic wounds on the to wound roll as opposed to the to hit roll. Minor but effective, IMO. I forget what they did to skimmer tanks; as far as vehicles go, there are ramming rules now (I think), and they changed Defensive Weapons to be Str 4, not Str 5. That last change significantly impacts Predator Destructors and similar vehicles (my poor Baal Predators, for example).

All in all, seems like they're doing some rebalancing and tweaking, which I'm always up for. I'll probably pirate the rules to see the extent of the changes, then maybe buy the book if I think it's worth it.

EDIT: What armies does everyone play? I've got Blood Angels and a mostly unassembled Tyranids army. Think I took some really craptacular photos a while back and posted 'em; maybe when I get ambitious I'll retake and post some better pictures.

Andrew

I've heard they are removing True Grit which will completely fuck up my Grey Knights. They are already the weakest army in the game I'm hoping they will lower the point cost for all the Daemonhunter models, or I'll be out of luck.

They also took out the ability to consolidate into a new unit and initiate a new assault. I also think that all blast templates hit models underneath automatically, but they now always roll 2D6 for scatter.

Apreche

That's gotta suck. You spend all this money on some miniatures trying to get the best army. Then, they change the rules, and it's not the best army anymore. I'm surprised they don't just nerf every mini that already exists, then release a new line of minis that are actually powerful.

Andrew

That's gotta suck. You spend all this money on some miniatures trying to get the best army. Then, they change the rules, and it's not the best army anymore. I'm surprised they don't just nerf every mini that already exists, then release a new line of minis that are actually powerful.

I would say that 80% of my enjoyment comes from the physical modeling and painting of the minis and the last 20% is playing with my friends. Part of the reason why I picked my army (Daemonhunters) instead of the others is that they have the coolest minis.

Apreche

That's gotta suck. You spend all this money on some miniatures trying to get the best army. Then, they change the rules, and it's not the best army anymore. I'm surprised they don't just nerf every mini that already exists, then release a new line of minis that are actually powerful.

I would say that 80% of my enjoyment comes from the physical modeling and painting of the minis and the last 20% is playing with my friends. Part of the reason why I picked my army (Daemonhunters) instead of the others is that they have the coolest minis.

That's another thing that bothers me. The better looking minis should also be better rules-wise.

HMTKSteve

I'm with Andrew. I do far more painting/modeling than playing.

Has any information been leaked as to why these rules are being tweaked? Was there some cheese (beardiness) going on with these rules?

HMTKSteve

That's another thing that bothers me. The better looking minis should also be better rules-wise.

There is a long standing superstition among my friends that painted miniatures fight better than non-painted miniatures. It is also a subject of superstition that when badly painted miniatures confront well-painted miniatures they will likely lose.

Sail

The better looking minis should also be better rules-wise.

Why? It seems like they should be nerfed to encourage people to play some of the other classes.

Andrew

Has any information been leaked as to why these rules are being tweaked? Was there some cheese (beardiness) going on with these rules?

Rumor has it that (surprise, surprise) 4th Edition wasn't selling very well.

HMTKSteve

Has any information been leaked as to why these rules are being tweaked? Was there some cheese (beardiness) going on with these rules?

Rumor has it that (surprise, surprise) 4th Edition wasn't selling very well.

How long has 4th edition been out?

Point of interest:

A guy I used to play against showed me how when he first started collecting the tanks you could buy a box set for $20 with several tanks in it. Now, you buy one tank for $30 or more...

TheWhaleShark

That's gotta suck. You spend all this money on some miniatures trying to get the best army. Then, they change the rules, and it's not the best army anymore. I'm surprised they don't just nerf every mini that already exists, then release a new line of minis that are actually powerful.

Well, no army is "the best," exactly. Each tends to be better at certain things than others, but they generally balance out. The problem is with that whole "generally" part; the balance isn't perfect, you can cheese certain armies out (friggin' Wraithlords), and sometimes you can just get totally hosed by your counter. Granted, if you plan for it and you use good tactics, you can overcome just about everything; the "counter" armies tend to be one-trick ponies, so if you can take that one trick away, they become cake.

However, Daemonhunters are definitely the weakest army in the game.

The thing is, the goal is to keep it enjoyable. One of the things I've always loved about 40k is what we call the "fluff;" the fact that you can inject your otherwise inanimate pewter and plastic models with personality and character gives the game a very personal feel, and a deep level of satisfaction. The enjoyment really comes first; that's why official Games Workshop tournaments judge you not just on your tactics and victory, but on sportsmanship as well. If you're a cheesed-out jackass, nobody's going to have fun playing with you, and you'll give the game a bad name.

Andrew

The thing is, the goal is to keep it enjoyable. One of the things I've always loved about 40k is what we call the "fluff;" the fact that you can inject your otherwise inanimate pewter and plastic models with personality and character gives the game a very personal feel, and a deep level of satisfaction. The enjoyment really comes first; that's why official Games Workshop tournaments judge you not just on your tactics and victory, but on sportsmanship as well. If you're a cheesed-out jackass, nobody's going to have fun playing with you, and you'll give the game a bad name.

I found that most of my enjoyment when it comes to actually playing the game comes from the stories we tell after a game. We will go on for hours recounting about what happened to what unit or what we should have done or how well a unit did in battle. Who wins or loses always fades five minutes into the conversation. If I remember correctly, it's much like how the FRC played Battletech.

J.Sharp

I like the setting and most of the models in Warhammer 40k, but the game itself leaves me very underwhelmed. My friends and I switched to Privateer Press's Warmachine/Hordes a few years ago and have found the actual game to be much more tactically interesting and fun to play.

Unless 5th Edition makes some heavy changes to the game, I just can't see it drawing us back in.

WallyBman

Ifi I remember correctly, the new skimmer rules make skimmers BETTER. Something about them being harder to hit when they are travel a certain distance the round before they are targeted. For example, if they move 6 inches, they are just moving, but if they move "very fast," or 9 inches, the models targeting them have a -1 applied to their to-hit roles. I may be full of shit, but it sounded something like that to me. I heark about the new rules on 40kRadio.

And as for having the best army? The best army is one that is used to its strengths. The Tau are an awesome army, but if you use them in a lot of hand to hand fighting, you are screwed. My Tau army is made up of two Crisis Suit commanders, each leading a Crisis Suit squad, 2 more 3 man Crisis Suit squads, 2 units of Fire Warrios, each with a targeter, 1 squad of 3 Broadside Crisis Suits, and a Tank with the template weapon and 4 seeker missiles. Why is that the way I roll the Tau? Well, because that way I have LOTS of to-hit rolls everytime without having to move towards the enemy much, therefore letting me shoot even more. I have Crisis suit squads for flanking, and if I get an almost dead unit into hand to hand, I can target them with my "guess range" template weapon, which if it kills my guys, will likely kill the enemy as well, and if it doesn't kill the enemy, it at least pins them down for at least one turn, letting me sweep a Crisis team in to mop up the mess. The Broadsides put 3 strength 10 attacks on a tank a turn, each have a re-roll if I miss, and If I have too many tanks to take them out one at a time, I can target individual tanks using my targeting equipment. And if I want to REALLY guarentee a tank kill, I can sacrifice a Fire Warrior squad to move up, have the leader target a tank for a Broadside, and use the rest of the squad shoot up a nearby soft target. Now that Broadside only has to roll 2+ to hit that tank, and it gets a re-roll if I roll the random 1. And any other turn, I can have my Fire Warrior leaders lighting up other targets to fire off my seekeer missiles at. And I don't need line-of-sight from the tank tot he target for that.

I kill Necrons, Nids, and Marines fairly well, along with other Tau, but Chaos is a 50/50 chance. Orks are iffy as well.

TheWhaleShark

You don't have to bring lots of firepower to kill 'Nids. You just need one squad of 5 Fire Warrios, and they can take a Hive Tyrant down in melee without suffering any wounds.

I'm not bitter.

WallyBman

I'm guessing there were lots of 6's and 1's involved, and the 1's were all yours... Shit happens. If it didn't, there would be nothing interesting in the world.

But I know the feeling. I had an entire Broadside unit firing on a Rhino making a run for my tank. The only hit I got in on it was a "weapon destroyed" roll. The next turn, it vomited out chaos marines that took out those same Broadsides before they got in a single kill.

And Scott, who difines "better looking?" If it were me, then squig riders and goblin fanatics would kill everyting in every game, and they are only in Warhammer Fantasy.

TheWhaleShark

I'm guessing there were lots of 6's and 1's involved, and the 1's were all yours... Shit happens. If it didn't, there would be nothing interesting in the world.

But I know the feeling. I had an entire Broadside unit firing on a Rhino making a run for my tank. The only hit I got in on it was a "weapon destroyed" roll. The next turn, it vomited out chaos marines that took out those same Broadsides before they got in a single kill.

I once lost a Blood Angels chaplain, tricked out, from full health, in melee against 15 Ork Shoota Boyz.

By the same token, I also had a Zoanthrope take 4 consecutive railgun hits without taking a single wound.

The Hive Tyrant thing was really more insulting than anything else.

Oh man, good times. I kinda want to bust out my army and play sometime soon. It's all been shelved for a while now.

Kilarney

I'm in the minority here, since I play Flames of War. (The World War II game based on the Warhammer rules.)

I've learned that you must enjoy painting in order to enjoy miniatures, since you'll be doing plenty of it. For me, it's not so bad. I live in the rural great white north, so in the winter it gives me a nice hobby. I refuse to paint when the weather is nice, though. We don't get much nice weather here, so I take advantage of it while I can.

Let's face it. Miniatures are expensive. Painting is insanely time consuming. They can be replicated using chits and hexes. But for all of that, they are amazingly fun. I recently played a 7 hour game, and I would have guessed that 3 or 4 hours had passed. That says a lot. I've also been getting into quick 600 point games that can be played in about 2 hours.

For all of the boardgaming I've done, nothing has quite risen to the level of enjoyment I get with miniatures. One big reason is that miniatures tend to provide the most "social" gaming that I've experienced. Of course I'm lucky to know people with lots of armies and scenery, so my investment has been very cheap. I can paint as little or as much as I want, but I'll always have access to complete armies.

J.Sharp

I've learned that youmustenjoy painting in order to enjoy miniatures, since you'll be doing plenty of it. For me, it's not so bad.

Wouldn't a game line of pre-painted minis, like Rackham's AT-43 get around that issue?

Kilarney

Wouldn't a game line of pre-painted minis, likeRackham's AT-43get around that issue?

I would gladly play such a game, but alas, nobody I know plays a pre-painted miniature game. The other problem is that, for metal figures, pre-painted figures jack up the price substantially.

Symmetry

I played a bit of Warhammer Fantasy in high school, but at college I had no time, no money, and not enough space for the hobby. Now that I've graduate I have more time and money, but I don't have enough room in my apartment for storing minis or doing painting. Maybe if I move to a larger place...

Yes, painting minis is a big part of the enjoyment for me.

Oh, and if I were to pick up 40k I would go Imperial Guard with lots of tanks and stormtroopers.

HMTKSteve

My group moved towards Mordheim (squad-sized Fantasy) because it was far cheaper and lent itself better towards customizing your troops.

Andrew

My group moved towards Mordheim (squad-sized Fantasy) because it was far cheaper and lent itself better towards customizing your troops.

I know there is something similar for 40k, I think it's called like Fire Squad or something. It always looked really interesting. Maybe they will expand upon it in 5th edition. Inquisitor also looks fun.

HMTKSteve

A few years back (pre-WD 300) they put out an Urban Assault rule book. I think it was around the time of the Armageddon Campaign?

I have that book and it had rules for skirmish level battles in 40K.

I have a shit-ton of older White Dwarf issues. If anyone wants them all you have to do is pay the shipping and they are yours. Or just come and get them.

WallyBman

LunchHammer 40K? 500 points, no saves better than 3+, no vehicles, no special characters. Something like that.

HMTKSteve

LunchHammer 40K? 500 points, no saves better than 3+, no vehicles, no special characters. Something like that.

I think it was called "Street fight". It's in my basement but I'm at work.

...

Apreche

I absolutely did not expect that.