I personally thought Daria just kept getting better right up to the end. What character progression are you talking about? (I bow to the expertise conferred by your avatar.)
I personally thought Daria just kept getting better right up to the end. What character progression are you talking about? (I bow to the expertise conferred by your avatar.)
When Tom left Jane for Daria, I think it started to go downhill. He was neither compelling and nor compelled. He existed to be the emotional anchor for a long series of crises Daria went through which were completely unlike the character she had been in seasons 1 and 2. I'll admit I kept watching until the very end, but mostly for "Sick Sad World."
The best part of Archer is that it manages to reliably be edgy without being insulting. Pretty much every character is way scummier than the cast of Futurama and it uses way more bigoted content as the butt of jokes, but despite all the incredibly scummy people, I'm hard pressed to remember a single situation where somebody's racist or sexist joke or attitude was the joke the show is relaying, because it's always "Look how incredibly screwed up these people are, holy shit!" (Mixed with really good wit and snark of course.)
Probably the best thing is the way the characters are sort of set up to call each other out on their bullshit while also all being varying degrees of hypocrites, which is played for some seriously fantastic character humour. The Canadian episode on the train is one of my favourite examples, with Malory's general elitism being mistaken for/recognized as racism by the the Canadian terrorist, but only due to his own jingoism.
I think Futurama used to be as good at that kind of humour, but it's sort of slacking off in favour of hipster-y "ironic bigotry" that really isn't the same thing.
Damn I totally voilated, look at any thread that gets 100 posts in two days rule and missed a great flame war...
Futurama is good in that I'm doing something else while watching this and occasionally I tune my attention to it as something actually funny happens. Great for when I'm working in front of the TV or playing a turn based strat game :-p
Damn where did half that sentence go... should be "Damn I totally violated one of my forum rules, "Look at any thread that gets 100 posts in two days" rule.
Yeah, I've been liking Archer even if it feels a little hollow at times. I thought the progression picked up noticeably in season 2, and I wound up marathoning it from there. I'm not sure how well the show is going to wear a few seasons down the line without any moral core whatsoever, but we'll see.
How I met you mother. Venture Brothers. Continually fresh with continual character development. The only drawback is that one literally has to watch from the beginning in chronological order or it makes almost no sense.
Good, I was hoping for examples. Neither of those shows blew me away, but I'll have to give them another shot at some point.
Whoa, awesome flamewar! How did I miss this? My take on it: it is more important to have unlimited free speech than to protect against offense. That means we have to let stupid Illinois nazis have their say under the law, so far as they don't make actual threats against people. (That's covered by a different law.) However! We can fight their memes with our memes, idea against idea. That means if something offends us, we can say it does loudly and clearly. The "you can't take a joke" cliche I denying people the right to their own opinions. Futurama had a whole episode where they switched bodies, male/female, and it was one long litany of sexist jokes. Satire, you say? I would be more open to that idea if I had not seen that kind of humor made with a straight face elsewhere. Satire usually skewers its target by taking it to absurd levels, this merely came across as tired sexist cliches. Intent does not count for a lot, for even if they were trying for parody, this is how my friends and I experienced it. When satirizing, attention should be drawn to how foolish these tropes and viewpoints are. Also, repeating bigoted humor, how does that in any way help things equalize, as you claim? I think it normalizes stereotypes rather than fights them.
If you take racist/sexist jokes seriously when they're uttered by characters on a Matt Groening show, you may have a social disorder. That's ridiculous.
I wouldn't put Futurama on the same playing field as Nazi propaganda films.
If a normal comedian says the same exact racist/sexist jokes as a racist/sexist comedian, how are they different? Thing don't get a free pass when they are animated, yo. If I didn't like those jokes in 90's sit coms, I don't know why I should dig them when uttered by the Planet Express crew. Also, where did I say that Futurama = nazi propaganda films? I said we have to allow bad speech to live in a free speech society, but we can bitch about it nevertheless.
It's not about being animated, it's about understanding the vehicle. Futurama has a long and established history. It doesn't need to flash "this is satire" on the screen in every episode in order to be effective.
See also, the complete lack of any significant outcry regarding the episodes condemned in this thread.
I'm saying that they did a bad job at satire, and just retold old jokes with little adjustment to the material. We all looked at each other like "Well, that was lame." If I need the context of the show's meta in order to think a stupid joke is funny, that's poor comedy writing.
Popular enough to have come back 3 times now. And with an audience that has decided it's trendy to bash things for not being progressive enough on any available justification. ;-)
Justification = I thought it was dumb. Thus, bashing. Plus, I think you just can laugh at stuff that I don't find funny. It's hard to like fake sexism when I have to deal with real sexism sometimes. Seriously, I used to love Futurama. It is just so hit or miss in the new seasons.
Fake sexism has done more to end sexism than every anti-gender-discrimination rally in history. Satire is, hands down, the single most effective progressive tool there is for soft social issues like sexism.
Sadly, it doesn't seem to help with class warfare.
While I agree that satire is a powerful political tool, I disagree that it eclipses other forms of activism. Art is indeed an excellent way to express your views, but you seem to think that merely repeating old jokes is good satire. Like, you would say a sexist joke and think that was helping?
I don't accept your assertion that Futurama is simply parroting sexist/racist jokes and calling it satire. I also don't agree that the context and history of the show isn't relevant in that respect or that it's necessarily a sign of weak writing.
Satire is, hands down, the single most effective progressive tool there is for soft social issues like sexism.
Yeah. Who can forget the comic genius of Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech, or Elizabeth Cady Stanton's hilarious "Declaration of Sentiments"?
I didn't say that activism was irrelevant or ineffective. I said that satire is most effective. It's like erosion. Erosion will take down a mountain much more thoroughly than blasting, just takes longer and/or more persistence.
Greg, dude, you're an angry guy. It's not healthy to be so angry. I don't mean to take pot shots and stray from the actual discussion, but man, you're angry. I should know. I used to be a really angry guy. Was terror on my health.
Comments
I mean, I agree that Archer is awesome. I love Archer, but dude.
I mean, their recent re-debut episode was pretty sad, but overall Futurama is pretty well constructed. We can't all be Archer.
As Rym says, it's offensive to my sense of humor, because it still thinks it's funny.
Probably the best thing is the way the characters are sort of set up to call each other out on their bullshit while also all being varying degrees of hypocrites, which is played for some seriously fantastic character humour. The Canadian episode on the train is one of my favourite examples, with Malory's general elitism being mistaken for/recognized as racism by the the Canadian terrorist, but only due to his own jingoism.
It's subjective.
Futurama is good in that I'm doing something else while watching this and occasionally I tune my attention to it as something actually funny happens. Great for when I'm working in front of the TV or playing a turn based strat game :-p
My take on it: it is more important to have unlimited free speech than to protect against offense. That means we have to let stupid Illinois nazis have their say under the law, so far as they don't make actual threats against people. (That's covered by a different law.) However! We can fight their memes with our memes, idea against idea. That means if something offends us, we can say it does loudly and clearly. The "you can't take a joke" cliche I denying people the right to their own opinions. Futurama had a whole episode where they switched bodies, male/female, and it was one long litany of sexist jokes. Satire, you say? I would be more open to that idea if I had not seen that kind of humor made with a straight face elsewhere. Satire usually skewers its target by taking it to absurd levels, this merely came across as tired sexist cliches. Intent does not count for a lot, for even if they were trying for parody, this is how my friends and I experienced it. When satirizing, attention should be drawn to how foolish these tropes and viewpoints are. Also, repeating bigoted humor, how does that in any way help things equalize, as you claim? I think it normalizes stereotypes rather than fights them.
I wouldn't put Futurama on the same playing field as Nazi propaganda films.
Also, where did I say that Futurama = nazi propaganda films? I said we have to allow bad speech to live in a free speech society, but we can bitch about it nevertheless.
See also, the complete lack of any significant outcry regarding the episodes condemned in this thread.
If I need the context of the show's meta in order to think a stupid joke is funny, that's poor comedy writing.
Plus, I think you just can laugh at stuff that I don't find funny. It's hard to like fake sexism when I have to deal with real sexism sometimes.
Seriously, I used to love Futurama. It is just so hit or miss in the new seasons.
Sadly, it doesn't seem to help with class warfare.
Greg, dude, you're an angry guy. It's not healthy to be so angry. I don't mean to take pot shots and stray from the actual discussion, but man, you're angry. I should know. I used to be a really angry guy. Was terror on my health.