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It boggles the mind...

AndrewAndrew
edited May 2008 in Everything Else
Did you know that there are still groups of people who have had NO contact with the outside world? Groups of people who have lived the same way for thousands of years? Primitives in the most literal sense. Sounds like the stuff of movies, but they exist!

Think about this for a second. One species split up into two groups. One group is trying to figure out how to make sure their huts made of branches survive a heavy rain. The other group is building a 27 km circumference particle accelerator which will hurl protons at 99.9999% the speed of light. Both live in the same time period and both live on the same planet, literally right next to each other.

Group A:
image
Group B:
image

Same species and yet they are so different.
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Comments

  • LyddiLyddi
    Oh noes, we must spread the sacred gospel of the FSM so the savages can be enlightened. I wonder what they would think of pirates.
  • SailSail
    One species split up into two groups. Both live in the same time period and both live on the same planet, literally right next to each other.
    As is how evolution works, right? But remember, one group's pursuits are no less superior to the other.
  • Victor FrostVictor Frost
    If they understand the pirate lifestyle, I think they would realize them to be truly one of FSM's chosen ones.
  • AndrewAndrew
    As is how evolution works, right? But remember, one group's pursuits are no less superior to the other.
    This isn't about biological evolution, we are the exact same as they are. Nor am I saying our pursuits are more superior. This is about how one species can be separated by a couple miles of forest creating an massive disparity in knowledge. When you look at it from the scale of the universe, we are right on top of each other. We are the same people, yet how can a few miles make us so different? Just something to think about I suppose...
  • LyddiLyddi
    We are what society makes us to be, and that is what makes us so different.
  • KilarneyKilarney
    edited May 2008
    Look more closely. They are aliens. Their skin is bright red.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited May 2008
    One species split up into two groups. Both live in the same time period and both live on the same planet, literally right next to each other.
    As is how evolution works, right? But remember, one group's pursuits are no less superior to the other.
    I know it's correct to say things like this and it feels good to say things like this, but is it true, really? Or would one be branded a bigot for saying that developing and implementing the technology to construct a supercollider might in some small way be slightly superior to trying to shoot something out of a tree with a bow and arrow?
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • FunfetusFunfetus
    Or would one be branded a bigot for saying that developing and implementing the technology to construct a supercollider might in some small way be slightly superior to trying to shoot something out of a tree with a bow and arrow?
    I think they were trying to shoot the helicopter that was taking that picture.
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    edited May 2008
    Or would one be branded a bigot for saying that developing and implementing the technology to construct a supercollider might in some small way be slightly superior to trying to shoot something out of a tree with a bow and arrow?
    I think they were trying to shoot the helicopter that was taking that picture.
    Does it make a difference?

    Edit: Actually, it might make a difference. Instead of using the bows effectvely, they're trying to utilize them against an object that they might not have ever seen, without any prior knowledge of how effective they might be, instead of running away. I think they'd be smarter to run away, but they apparently have a shoot-first value system (maybe not so different from us after all).
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • AndrewAndrew
    Edit: Actually, it might make a difference. Instead of using the bows effectvely, they're trying to utilize them against an object that they might not have ever seen, without any prior knowledge of how effective they might be, instead of running away. I think they'd be smarter to run away, but they apparently have a shoot-first value system (maybe not so different from us after all).
    I think it just goes to show how necessary social interaction is for the advancement of knowledge. I know some people (*cough*Jcc*cough*) think that the study of social evolution is evil and the causes of eugenics and the sort. While there may be a sliver of validity to that idea, there is so much learning potential to be gained by learning how interaction between individuals within a species effects their cognitive abilities.
  • RymRym
    The real question is: what do we do? What can we possibly do with these people?

    Do we quarantine them forever from our society? Do we try to assimilate them? Whatever we do, we can't simply leave them be and expect everything to work itself out. They will eventually discover the outside world and, barring an actual, physical, permanent quarantine, they will some day have to deal with this. If we simply leave them be, the likelihood of a positive outcome is low. If we intervene, we will effectively destroy their world.

    What can we possibly do?
  • FunfetusFunfetus
    Does it make a difference?
    It does. It's funnier.
  • AndrewAndrew
    The real question is: what do we do? What can we possibly do with these people?

    Do we quarantine them forever from our society? Do we try to assimilate them? Whatever we do, we can't simply leave them be and expect everything to work itself out. They will eventually discover the outside world and, barring an actual, physical, permanent quarantine, they will some day have to deal with this. If we simply leave them be, the likelihood of a positive outcome is low. If we intervene, we will effectively destroy their world.

    What can we possibly do?
    PRIME DIRECTIVE!!1one
  • JasonJason
    Imagine there were a society more advanced than our own on the same scale that we are more advanced that the Amazonians. I wonder how we would react to first contact.

    Also, I wonder if the UN or any other group has a Prime Directive for dealing with this situation.
  • JasonJason
    PRIME DIRECTIVE!!1one
    FSM damn you, Andrew. You stole that from our IM yesterday and beat me to the posting.
  • AndrewAndrew
    edited May 2008
    Imagine there were a society more advanced than our own on the same scale that we are more advanced that the Amazonians. I wonder how we would react to first contact.
    Who knows, perhaps our Solar System is a wildlife preserve controlled by a much larger species that spans our galaxy.
    Post edited by Andrew on
  • KilarneyKilarney
    edited May 2008
    Or would one be branded a bigot for saying that developing and implementing the technology to construct a supercollider might in some small way be slightly superior to trying to shoot something out of a tree with a bow and arrow?
    You're mixing up socialization with evolution. There is no reason to believe that this tribe has inferior brains. There is no reason to believe that they could not participate in the development of a supercollider, if given the resources and education that scientists get.

    If you're asking which type of social environment is superior, that seems to be a subjective question.

    The one area where they are at great risk due to evolutionary pressures is susceptibility to disease. (At least according to the article.) Their immune systems have not evolved to fight against diseases that they have not been exposed to. This puts non-primitive types at an evolutionary advantage.
    Post edited by Kilarney on
  • HungryJoeHungryJoe
    You're mixing up socialization with evolution. There is no reason to believe that this tribe has inferior brains. There is no reason to believe that they could not participate in the development of a supercollider, if given the resources and education that scientists get.

    If you're asking which type of social environment is superior, that seems to be a subjective question.
    I think that the idea that the superiority of social environments is purely subjective actually leads to the result that they will never be given the same resources and education that the supercollider guys get. I suppose someone like Mr. jcc would say, "Why should we impose our values on the tribesmen? Let them live life the way they want. Let them teach their kids they way they want them to be taught." That means that none of those kids will get lessons in supercolliding.

    They have the same brains, sure. They have the same potential. If they stay in the bush, that potential is wasted.
    If we simply leave them be, the likelihood of a positive outcome is low. If we intervene, we will effectively destroy their world.

    What can we possibly do?
    Take their land by invocation of Manifest Destiny. Build industry and tourist attractions. Let the adults work at the industries and tourist attractions while the kids go to school to learn about Western Culture, Evolution, and Supercolliding.
  • HMTKSteveHMTKSteve
    I am reminded of this old joke:
    An American tourist was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.

    Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The tourist complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

    The Mexican replied, "Only a little while."

    The tourist then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?"

    The Mexican said, "With this I have more than enough to support my family's needs."

    The tourist then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?"

    The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life."

    The tourist scoffed, " I can help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You could leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you could run your ever-expanding enterprise."

    The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all take?"

    The tourist replied, "15 to 20 years."

    "But what then?" asked the Mexican.

    The tourist laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

    "Millions?...Then what?"

    The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."
  • AprecheApreche
    Here's the catch with Steve's story. If you stay in the fishing village, you have to do that little bit of fishing ever day for the rest of your life. Also, life is very risky. If you fail to catch fish for a few days, you are in deep shit.

    If you go the millionaire route, then when you get to the fishing village, you are 100% worry free. You don't have to go out and catch some fish every day. You spend 100% of your time living the good life, with very little risk of anything spoiling that life.
  • SparkybuzzedSparkybuzzed
    The article about these isolated tribes talks about the effort to keep them isolated. Developers wanting to cut down that area of rainforest have denied their existence. These pictures prove otherwise. Prime Directive in effect.
  • lackofcheeselackofcheese
    edited May 2008
    We should just spy on them with electronics (very small electronics, clearly).
    It doesn't matter if we know all about them as long as they don't know about us.
    We can intervene should it prove necessary (i.e. if they are threatened, or should some of their practices prove to be unacceptable), but otherwise, I think they have value in
    1) A case study in humanity
    2) Entertainment
    They have the same brains, sure. They have the same potential. If they stay in the bush, that potential is wasted.
    While they may have the same "potential" as any of the rest of us, we have billions of people in the rest of the world for whom to maximise utilisation of potential, to far greater effect.
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • RymRym
    I agree that we should study them unmolested as much as possible. An opportunity such as this could be an incredible and unprecedented boon.
  • LyddiLyddi
    I see an interesting reality show out of this.
  • Luke BurrageLuke Burrage
    We could pretend to be gods and start a religion.

    Or for even more fun: start two religions.
  • chaosof99chaosof99
    Here's the catch with Steve's story. If you stay in the fishing village, you have to do that little bit of fishing ever day for the rest of your life. Also, life is very risky. If you fail to catch fish for a few days, you are in deep shit.

    If you go the millionaire route, then when you get to the fishing village, you are 100% worry free. You don't have to go out and catch some fish every day. You spend 100% of your time living the good life, with very little risk of anything spoiling that life.
    You don't think that his amigos would help him out if he got sick?
  • Kate MonsterKate Monster

    I know it's correct to say things like this and it feels good to say things like this, but is it true, really? Or would one be branded a bigot for saying that developing and implementing the technology to construct a supercollider might in some small way be slightly superior to trying to shoot something out of a tree with a bow and arrow?
    How does the supercollider feed you and your family? It like saying that the person who cleans toilets is less necessary than an astronomer. If we had a glutton of astronomers and no toilet cleaners, we would be in the shit. That doesn't negate the importance of astronomers, but it does highlight the importance of the simple, but more immediately necessary function.
  • AndrewAndrew
    How does the supercollider feed you and your family? It like saying that the person who cleans toilets is less necessary than an astronomer. If we had a glutton of astronomers and no toilet cleaners, we would be in the shit. That doesn't negate the importance of astronomers, but it does highlight the importance of the simple, but more immediately necessary function.
    Astronomers can clean toilets. Janitors cannot collide two hydrogen protons to test the existence of the Higgs Boson (unless your name is Matt Damon).
  • RymRym
    It like saying that the person who cleans toilets is less necessary than an astronomer. If we had a glutton of astronomers and no toilet cleaners, we would be in the shit. That doesn't negate the importance of astronomers, but it does highlight the importance of the simple, but more immediately necessary function.
    But what about when we eventually automate all menial tasks with machines?

    I both look forward to and fear the day when the majority of the working economy is no longer necessary.
  • lackofcheeselackofcheese
    edited May 2008
    How does the supercollider feed you and your family? It like saying that the person who cleans toilets is less necessary than an astronomer. If we had a glutton of astronomers and no toilet cleaners, we would be in the shit. That doesn't negate the importance of astronomers, but it does highlight the importance of the simple, but more immediately necessary function.
    Oh please, the supercollider is just representing technology in general, and there is no way you can deny the role of technology in feeding us.
    Also, the supercollider doesn't really fall under "astronomy".
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
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