I suppose you're drawing a comparison to the swastika being an ancient symbol used throughout history by many cultures and religions, that was misappropriated by the nazis.
I stand by the Godwinning. Not that it actually matters.
I suppose you're drawing a comparison to the swastika being an ancient symbol used throughout history by many cultures and religions, that was misappropriated by the nazis.
No Jason! Don't agree! Your head will implode! Oh... to late.
Anyway, I think that the Confederate flag has some historical relevance and should be regarded as such. That will not, of course, stop me from thinking that the people who have it on a bumper-sticker, or fly the flag, or have it on a shirt, et cetera are ignorant assholes.
Being a native Georgian, I am very used to seeing the confederate flag everywhere. It used to be our state flag until enough people complained. But then of course the rednecks complained when it got changed. People (rednecks) wear the flag on every article of clothing all the time, and its ridiculous. I'm not so sure its supposed to be about hate, though. I think for most people its just about being old and cranky and not wanting change and having pride about living in the South for some reason. Maybe they like it for the same reason they are all UGA fans, who knows.
It's historically relevant like Nazi symbols (swastika, Eagle (you know what I mean), etc.) and it has been used a symbol of hate by many people for a very long time. I won't say that people shouldn't be allowed to fly it but it makes me very uncomfortable being around someone who flies it. I doubt that anyone is flying for purely historical reason but it making a political statement. Everyone knows what "heritage" they are celebrating by flying this.
On another train of thought. If people in the south say the Civil War was about states rights (not making arguments about that) why do they fly a national flag but the respective state flag?
Symbols are not absolute, their meaning comes out of what people believe is right. They also change through time. I remember we had a very interesting debate in history class. I mean we all know the Civil War was not about abolishing slavery, and many historians believe that slavery would have eventually ended. So our professor asked us if the south had the right to secede from the union? We were kind of confuse, and she divided us in two groups, and made us read different letters, journals, and books from different sides of the war. I know why the north had to do what it did, but then in some letters the many soldiers thought of their slip from the Union as an"independence" so they can continue their way of life. But I will say that I hate war.
Symbols are not absolute, their meaning comes out of what people believe is right. They also change through time. I remember we had a very interesting debate in history class. I mean we all know the Civil War was not about abolishing slavery, and many historians believe that slavery would have eventually ended. So our professor asked us if the south had the right to secede from the union? We were kind of confuse, and she divided us in two groups, and made us read different letters, journals, and books from different sides of the war. I know why the north had to do what it did, but then in some letters the many soldiers thought of their slip from the Union as an"independence" so they can continue their way of life. But I will say that I hate war.
I have been a southerner all my life, and I can give you my view of that flag: BURN IT! It is a symbol of the stupidity of the region at that time. As for the "right" of secession, I am not a supporter of states' rights. The constitution stated that power would be shared between the federal government and the states. Nothing was stated about states' rights at all. If it takes the federal government to acquire land, it should take the federal government in the case of divestiture.
I must also point out the Articles of Confederation gave the states rights, and look how that turned out. And in case you are wondering, if I were in that time period as who I am today, I would support the Union, despite the fact that Lincoln violated habeas corpus.
It's hard for some to live in a time where people assume that you're poor, backwards, ignorant, and inconsequential simply because you live below the Mason-Dixon line. This especially stings if all these things are true. I think that's part of the reason why certain subgroups of white Southerners hate blacks so much. There was a time, when no matter how poor you got, the color of your skin still kept you from being at the bottom of society. This is no longer true, and some people just can't get over that. So they escape into a fantasy past where blacks knew their place and being a Southerner was something to be proud of. The flag is a symbol of that fantasy, and in turn a symbol of that hatred.
There's more to it than that, though. When the South lost the Civil War, they also lost a culture war, which had to do with more than just how one ought to treat black people. Should the U.S. be agrarian or industrial? Nation-based or state-based? Hamiltonian or Jeffersonian? Some people think it is important to understand what the South was about, and the flag, for better or worse, has become its symbol.
I agree that it has historical relevance and should be talk about it along with the why and how of the civil war as education. I disagree with the message of the flag and the people who use it for hate.
Should the U.S. be agrarian or industrial? Nation-based or state-based? Hamiltonian or Jeffersonian?
Let's see if I can help you out. Industrial. Nation-based. Hamiltonian.
How do you even get out of the house in the morning? I imagine you standing in the bathroom wondering to yourself, "Maybe I should take a shower, but there are some societies that don't place a premium on personal hygiene . . . should I shave? There is some evidence that Jesus didn't shave . . . ", and then in the kitchen, "Maybe I should fix a Pop-Tart for breakfast, but early christians would have preferred unleavened bread. Do I have the right to prepare unleavened bread? Is the Pop-Tart leavened or unleavened? What would the early christians think of a Pop-Tart? Isn't a Pop-Tart proof that God exists?", and then in front of the door, "Is it going to rain? Should I take an umbrella? Does God want me to take an umbrella? Is it proof that God exists if it rains today or is it proof that God exists if it doesn't rain today? Can science really predict the weather? Shouldn't science be more concerned with letting go and letting God?", and so on.
Regardless of its racial implications, the Confederate Flag is a symbol of States that wanted to secede from the Union. They no longer wanted to be a part of the nation as a whole. Based on this, it could be seen as an anti-American gesture - a giant F*** You to the nation as it stands. I really do not care if someone flies, wears, or paints the confederate flag wherever they like, as long as it is not in or on buildings that receive federal funds.
I think the flag as a symbol (generally speaking, not this flag in particular) in recent years has been very much overused. Partially for the wrong reasons and mainly because people in general are stupid. Since recently I can especially observe it where I live. My university is less than a kilometer away from one of the stadiums where the european football championships are held this summer, in fact our parking spaces are rented out for the games. For this occasion the austrian government temporarily suspended a law that prohibits people from mounting flags to their cars. Now I see cars in the streets that have four flags of three different nations on them and almost every day I drive I can find a flag that was torn of by winds on the streets, mostly because people are to stupid to take them into their cars before they hit the highway.
Flags are used as a symbol for identification with a school of thought. Unfortunately many people do not realize it anymore or fly them just for the hell of it. First you have to know what the flag in question stands for and second you have to ask why the person is showing that symbol. The swastika is a good example. The NASDAP used it for their propaganda and is now a symbol for racial hatred that is even forbidden to be displayed in my country in this manner. However, it is also a nordic rune and an eastern symbol representing the sun. For example, about a year ago in a german anime board I irregularly visited, one of the users tried to tie Naruto creator Masashi Kishimoto to the Nazis because one of his characters sports a swastika on his forehead, until we explained the meaning of the swastika in Japan, China or Tibet.
In regard to the article posted, I think it is mainly the aforementioned stupidity as nobody really knows anymore what this flag really stands for and a flag without a defined meaning loses it's purpose and value. Therefore I don't think the confederate flag should be flown ever again.
I seem to recall reading about a game company that brought a World War 2 game to a German game convention and had every copy confiscated because they used the swastika on some of the German troop pieces in the game.
We were just talking about this in the car on the way upstate. A lot of problems occur when two unrelated ideas become arbitrarily grouped together for no reason. The confederate flag is a great example of this. Someone can be all for more states rights and a weaker federal government while also not being a racist southern hick who like slavery and has a Git-R-Done hat. The confederate flag symbolizes both of these ideas, as well as many others. Thus, it is incredibly problematic.
We were just talking about this in the car on the way upstate. A lot of problems occur when two unrelated ideas become arbitrarily grouped together for no reason. The confederate flag is a great example of this. Someone can be all for more states rights and a weaker federal government while also not being a racist southern hick who like slavery and has a Git-R-Done hat. The confederate flag symbolizes both of these ideas, as well as many others. Thus, it is incredibly problematic.
But, when an object symbolizes something controversial, other meanings don't matter. No matter what the argument for historical use, the swastika will never be allowed in Germany. No matter what excuses or reasons people have for flying the Stars & Bars, it will always be seen as racist here in the South and throughout most of the country. If people want to be good advocates for their cause, they would be better served not having to defend a hugely controversial symbol.
No matter what the argument for historical use, the swastika will never be allowed in Germany.
Not exactly. The german and austrian law prohibits the use of the swastika to propagate racist ideals. However, the symbol can still be used in historical or fictional context or when clearly identified with Buddhism or other schools of thought that use that symbol. Else we wouldn't be able to print history books and a lot of manga like Adolf by Osamu Tezuka or Hellsing couldn't be printed.
The problem with the confederate flag is that it doesn't have a clearly defined meaning any more and one has to always ask himself what the guy hanging it up there is trying to convey. In this regard, the flag has lost it's purpose and in my opinion shouldn't be used except in a depicting of a historical scene.
Comments
I stand by the Godwinning. Not that it actually matters.
Anyway, I think that the Confederate flag has some historical relevance and should be regarded as such. That will not, of course, stop me from thinking that the people who have it on a bumper-sticker, or fly the flag, or have it on a shirt, et cetera are ignorant assholes.
On another train of thought. If people in the south say the Civil War was about states rights (not making arguments about that) why do they fly a national flag but the respective state flag?
I remember we had a very interesting debate in history class. I mean we all know the Civil War was not about abolishing slavery, and many historians believe that slavery would have eventually ended. So our professor asked us if the south had the right to secede from the union? We were kind of confuse, and she divided us in two groups, and made us read different letters, journals, and books from different sides of the war.
I know why the north had to do what it did, but then in some letters the many soldiers thought of their slip from the Union as an"independence" so they can continue their way of life.
But I will say that I hate war.
I must also point out the Articles of Confederation gave the states rights, and look how that turned out. And in case you are wondering, if I were in that time period as who I am today, I would support the Union, despite the fact that Lincoln violated habeas corpus.
Some use it in a hateful way, some don't.
It's hard for some to live in a time where people assume that you're poor, backwards, ignorant, and inconsequential simply because you live below the Mason-Dixon line. This especially stings if all these things are true. I think that's part of the reason why certain subgroups of white Southerners hate blacks so much. There was a time, when no matter how poor you got, the color of your skin still kept you from being at the bottom of society. This is no longer true, and some people just can't get over that. So they escape into a fantasy past where blacks knew their place and being a Southerner was something to be proud of. The flag is a symbol of that fantasy, and in turn a symbol of that hatred.
There's more to it than that, though. When the South lost the Civil War, they also lost a culture war, which had to do with more than just how one ought to treat black people. Should the U.S. be agrarian or industrial? Nation-based or state-based? Hamiltonian or Jeffersonian? Some people think it is important to understand what the South was about, and the flag, for better or worse, has become its symbol.
How do you even get out of the house in the morning? I imagine you standing in the bathroom wondering to yourself, "Maybe I should take a shower, but there are some societies that don't place a premium on personal hygiene . . . should I shave? There is some evidence that Jesus didn't shave . . . ", and then in the kitchen, "Maybe I should fix a Pop-Tart for breakfast, but early christians would have preferred unleavened bread. Do I have the right to prepare unleavened bread? Is the Pop-Tart leavened or unleavened? What would the early christians think of a Pop-Tart? Isn't a Pop-Tart proof that God exists?", and then in front of the door, "Is it going to rain? Should I take an umbrella? Does God want me to take an umbrella? Is it proof that God exists if it rains today or is it proof that God exists if it doesn't rain today? Can science really predict the weather? Shouldn't science be more concerned with letting go and letting God?", and so on.
Flags are used as a symbol for identification with a school of thought. Unfortunately many people do not realize it anymore or fly them just for the hell of it. First you have to know what the flag in question stands for and second you have to ask why the person is showing that symbol. The swastika is a good example. The NASDAP used it for their propaganda and is now a symbol for racial hatred that is even forbidden to be displayed in my country in this manner. However, it is also a nordic rune and an eastern symbol representing the sun. For example, about a year ago in a german anime board I irregularly visited, one of the users tried to tie Naruto creator Masashi Kishimoto to the Nazis because one of his characters sports a swastika on his forehead, until we explained the meaning of the swastika in Japan, China or Tibet.
In regard to the article posted, I think it is mainly the aforementioned stupidity as nobody really knows anymore what this flag really stands for and a flag without a defined meaning loses it's purpose and value. Therefore I don't think the confederate flag should be flown ever again.
The problem with the confederate flag is that it doesn't have a clearly defined meaning any more and one has to always ask himself what the guy hanging it up there is trying to convey. In this regard, the flag has lost it's purpose and in my opinion shouldn't be used except in a depicting of a historical scene.