D&D 4E

HMTKSteve

Wondering why I put this in video games? If you have been listening to the Penny-Arcade D&D4E podcast you would know.

It sounds more and more like the D&D game we once knew no longer exists. One thing the new version is adding in is called "Healing Surges". These allow you to quickly heal a few hit points multiple times a day, even more hit points than your character has! Yes, every character is now part Paladin/Cleric.

I have to wonder if they were getting feedback that many players did not enjoy playing the glorified medic known as the Cleric and decided to downplay this usefulness in this new edition.

The game is pretty much nothing more than a set of rules for miniatures-based combat. It's like the game has come full circle back to it's roots in Chainmail! Even measurements have gone from distances to "squares".

I'm reminded of the venerable Chevy Nova. If you owned an early 70's Nova you owned a muscle car. If you owned one of the Novas from the end of the model line you owned a small-box econo car. This is how I feel about D&D4E, it's become the Chevy Nova of the gaming world.

Sail

Table-top video games? Is that what the kids are into these days? I suppose they took out the role-playing aspect because it required too much effort.

Kiey

I'm listening to the PA D&D podcast, and it's starting to make me interested in 4th Edition. It seems like a lot of fun, especially in a more casual group of players. I'm really interested in the online integration that they've apparently included to let people play it over the internet, which seems like a really cool idea, especially if you can get everyone in a TeamSpeak server or something.

Apreche

Everything I've heard about D+D4E suggests that it is basically WoW on a table. Really, it's basically the same game as Hero Quest, only much more complex. If you want to play a game where you roll lots of weird dice to see how much treasures you get, and how many monsters you kill, by all means play some D+D. If you actually want to role play and create a dramatic narrative, look elsewhere. While it is possible to role play and use the D+D system to resolve combat and such, there's no reason to do so. The D+D system does next to nothing to help actual role playing.

Neito

I'll wait for the SRD to form an opinion so I don't have to pay WotC any moneies.

Kiey

I don't see why making it simpler (more WoW like as Scott put it,) is a bad thing. I mean the problem with WoW isn't that it's simple, but that there really isn't a story (cohesive at least,) and you have to do a lot of collect a number of things, or kill a number of things quests.

I do agree that Burning Wheel is obviously a superior system for role playing, but I think that 4th Ed is something that is better for people looking for a more casual game. I know that my friends would probably enjoy 4th Ed over Burning Wheel, only because they are a more casual group (more about the fighting, and less about the role play.) And it's also not like you couldn't create a dramatic narrative in 4th Ed, I just think that Burning Wheel makes it easier to do so.

HMTKSteve

Making it simpler is only a bad thing because they are still calling it D&D.

fuzzyj

I have logged 10 -12 hours playing 4th edition so far and it like it better then 3.0 or 3.5. It is simplified with allows more time and effort to be put in to actual role playing. and yes it could be called table top WoW if your DM and players don't want a story but hell you could do that with any past system. If you and the people around you want to role play 4th edition makes it simpler (then past D&D systems) to do so. The powers and abilities look confining until you start playing and realize that there is a huge amount of chooses to make on a character development. but again it comes comes down to role playing.
that being said I would be happy to sit around a table with no books and role play as epic stroy with my friends.

I hope that's coherent.

TheWhaleShark

I don't see why making it simpler (more WoW like as Scott put it,) is a bad thing. I mean the problem with WoW isn't that it's simple, but that there really isn't a story (cohesive at least,) and you have to do a lot of collect a number of things, or kill a number of things quests.

WoW has an assload of story, probably more than any modern RPG out there. Being plot-driven isn't the issue with most games. In fact, most D&D; games are HEAVILY plot-driven.

The problem with WoW, and with D&D;, is that they're not really character-driven. Nothing is stopping you from making character-driven D&D; games, but it takes work, as the system lends itself far better to plot driving.

Apreche

It has nothing to do with the simplicity of the system. It has to do with what the system does.

If your goal is to have a game where you explore dungeons, fight monsters, collect treasure, etc. That is what D+D does. It is a system that helps you figure those things out. If you want to add some flavor on top of that, it is possible, but the system doesn't do very much to help you along.

Burning Wheel, among other RPGs, is actually a completely different kind of game. Sure, if you want to just fight monsters in Burning Wheel you can, but it sucks. Primarily it is a system of rules that gives you and your friends a creative focus through which you can collaboratively create a character driven narrative. It also provides multiple, superior, conflict resolution mechanisms for when not everyone agrees on the direction the story should go.

D+D does not offer much more than Hero Quest besides a more advanced set of rules. There's no reason D+D can't have character drama and collaborative storytelling, but Burning Wheel, and many other games, encourage, nourish, and foster it.

Koholint

Hey Steve, just to let you know the Dungeon Master said specifically that you can't go over your hit point limits by using Healing Surges. (Sorry, I'm kind of OCD about correcting people. Didn't mean any offence!)

sime

It has nothing to do with the simplicity of the system. It has to do with what the system does.

If your goal is to have a game where you explore dungeons, fight monsters, collect treasure, etc. That is what D+D does. It is a system that helps you figure those things out. If you want to add some flavor on top of that, it is possible, but the system doesn't do very much to help you along.

Burning Wheel, among other RPGs, is actually a completely different kind of game. Sure, if you want to just fight monsters in Burning Wheel you can, but it sucks. Primarily it is a system of rules that gives you and your friends a creative focus through which you can collaboratively create a character driven narrative. It also provides multiple, superior, conflict resolution mechanisms for when not everyone agrees on the direction the story should go.

D+D does not offer much more than Hero Quest besides a more advanced set of rules. There's no reason D+D can't have character drama and collaborative storytelling, but Burning Wheel, and many other games, encourage, nourish, and foster it.

I am not sure if you guys have already done this or not but I'd be fascinated to here a sample of what playing the game is actually like. I have heard an episode where you described how awesome it was, I just struggle to get how it works because my previous experience with role playing did feel like a glorified Heroes Quest game. I apologise if you guys have done an episode like this already. I might go back and listen to the interview and see if that gives me a better idea.

Edit: I am listening to the Burning Wheel episode again and you do kind of go through some scenarios there, but I still think it'd be nice to here an actual bit of the game being run so you can hear the way it kind of flows.

HMTKSteve

Hey Steve, just to let you know the Dungeon Master said specifically that youcan'tgo over your hit point limits by using Healing Surges. (Sorry, I'm kind of OCD about correcting people. Didn't mean any offence!)

True, but you have effectively doubled the character's hit points by allowing the character to heal themself (nearly at will) for more hit points than they have. It does not matter that you can't have more hit points than your max because you have a reserve pool of hit points that is greater than your max.

Kiey

Hey Steve, just to let you know the Dungeon Master said specifically that youcan'tgo over your hit point limits by using Healing Surges. (Sorry, I'm kind of OCD about correcting people. Didn't mean any offence!)

True, but you have effectively doubled the character's hit points by allowing the character to heal themself (nearly at will) for more hit points than they have. It does not matter that you can't have more hit points than your max because you have a reserve pool of hit points that is greater than your max.

Yes, but you can only use it once in a battle, (not including other abilities that may let you use more,) so typically unless you have a healing class character when it really matters, (in battle,) you can't heal yourself all that much.

HMTKSteve

Hey Steve, just to let you know the Dungeon Master said specifically that youcan'tgo over your hit point limits by using Healing Surges. (Sorry, I'm kind of OCD about correcting people. Didn't mean any offence!)

True, but you have effectively doubled the character's hit points by allowing the character to heal themself (nearly at will) for more hit points than they have. It does not matter that you can't have more hit points than your max because you have a reserve pool of hit points that is greater than your max.

Yes, but you can only use it once in a battle, (not including other abilities that may let you use more,) so typically unless you have a healing class character when it really matters, (in battle,) you can't heal yourself all that much.

But you can heal yourself outside of battle as much as you want. This is no different than giving each character a bag full of healing potions that refill themselves every day.

...

even more hit points than your character has!

Eh... What? I too listen to the PA D&D; session, I have not heard anything about people being able to go above their maximum hitpoints. Sure, you can use a surge that's supposed to heal 7 HP when you only are 2 HP from max HP, but that will only mean you heal 2 HP and those remaining 5HP are wasted.

Either way, it's funny to listen to the session.

HMTKSteve

even more hit points than your character has!

Eh... What? I too listen to the PA D&D; session, I have not heard anything about people being able to go above their maximum hitpoints. Sure, you can use a surge that's supposed to heal 7 HP when you only are 2 HP from max HP, but that will only mean you heal 2 HP and those remaining 5HP are wasted.

Either way, it's funny to listen to the session.

The hit points you can heal via surges are enough to completely heal your character from 0 hit points and still have healing surges left over. This has nothing to do with going above max hit points.

...

The hit points you can heal via surges are enough to completely heal your character from 0 hit points and still have healing surges left over. This has nothing to do with going above max hit points.

Aaaaaaaaah, that is true yes, however...

These allow you to quickly heal a few hit points multiple times a day, even more hit points than your character has!

It's really fucking hard to get that from this sentence though. Here you make it seem like people can use healing surges to go above their maximum hit points.

HMTKSteve

These allow you to quickly heal a few hit points multiple times a day, even more hit points than your character has!

It's really fucking hard to get that from this sentence though. Here you make it seem like people can use healing surges to go above their maximum hit points.

I see now.

These allow you to quickly heal a few hit points multiple times a day, from a supply of hit points that is greater than your maximum hit points.

Is that any more clear? I assumed that everyone already knew that you can not pass your max hit points and figured everyone would also read that to indicate the supply of hit points available via Healing surges was larger than your max hit points not that you could go above max hit points via surges.

...

Is that any more clear? I assumed that everyone already knew that you can not pass your max hit points and figured everyone would also read that to indicate the supply of hit points available via Healing surges was larger than your max hit points not that you could go above max hit points via surges.

Yup, it is. And you're drawing wrong conclusions, not everybody has played D&D; so not everybody knows that you can never go above your maximum hitpoints.

HMTKSteve

Yup, it is. And you're drawing wrong conclusions, not everybody has played D&D; so not everybody knows that you can never go above your maximum hitpoints.

Fair enough. It just bugs me that they still call it D&D.;

It's like this, when I think of a Chevy Nova I think of this:


No this:


I'm sure D&D4E; is a great game in its own right, I just don't think it should still be called D&D;.

Rym

It's such a silly thing. They're treating D&D just like a videogame now. Balancing classes, fiddly rules changes... Who ever had a problem with hit points as they were? Too few? Just arbitrarily raise them! To many? Cut them in half! Characters dying all the time? Fudge the dying rules! Playing clerics isn't fun? Just change them until it is.

It's almost as though D&D players have forgotten that they can do whatever they wish with the rules, and that they don't need WotC's approval to make their game fun...

fuzzyj

Rym I think you hit it on the head. A lot of people who have only played D&D 3.X (there are always exceptions) like to follow rules to the letter, which just makes playing any game chunky. 4th ed took a lot of the stuff people fudged, like making a cleric fun to play, and put it in official book.

It's is just a progression of the system: whether good or bad, in the long run it really doesn't matter, because your AD&D books did not burst in to flames when the new ones came out.

WotC has to call it D&D. Otherwise, it wouldn't sell without tons of marketing and extra work.

chaosof99

Tuchulcha

I've been playing DnD since 1st Ed, and I don't actually plan on buying the 4th Ed because of a lot of the changes I've been hearing about and the PA podcast. Unlike a lot of y'all, I enjoy WoW, but I do agree that the move to make DnD more like an MMO is a mistake. Each system has its own merits, but I play them for different reasons.

I would suggest, though, that 3.x was pretty darn good. Combat can take longer than you might want, but combat doesn't have to be the bulk of the campaign. The advantage that I see in 3.x versus 1st and 2nd ed is that the classes were much more balanced. In 1st and 2nd ed, combat was much more freeform, and thus the fighter was often a sub-par character class when compared to another that had many other abilities or spells. 3.x changed that with the Feat system. Are there some problems? Sure. The Challenge Rating experience point system is heinous, so, at times, I ignored it. I actually agree with Rym on this point. The DM can change the rules however he sees fit.

When you're developing a story line, I'm not sure how many rules you really need. I've always had mixed feelings about skills such as Bluff or Intimidate. If you're going to role-play, why not base an NPC's reaction to one of your players' actions by expecting that person to be convincing or intimidating? Do you really need a roll here? Sure, you can use one, and heck give the player a bonus if they role-played well, but I'm not sure it's even necessary. When we played, we did a lot of things on the fly, and that's the way I'm going to continue to play. I will also continue to play with my 3.x books.

HMTKSteve

If you're going to role-play, why not base an NPC's reaction to one of your players' actions by expecting that person to be convincing or intimidating? Do you really need a roll here?

Yes, just because the character has an 18 Intelligence and an 18 Charisma does not mean the player does. There is a certain point where you can not role play the character properly due to your own limitations.

Tuchulcha

Yes, just because the character has an 18 Intelligence and an 18 Charisma does not mean the player does. There is a certain point where you can not role play the character properly due to your own limitations.

You've got a good point, but the point I'm making is that some people get into character and really try to role play their actions. The Bluff roll is a good example. Think of it this way. One person can say, "I use my Bluff skill on the guard to let me into the party." Another might say, "I forge an invitation, feign an aristocratic accent, and approach the guard saying..." If that person has an 18 Charisma, I don't see that a roll is always going to be necessary. These are extremes of role playing, but the point is that you don't always have to pick up the dice. It's part of the DM's prerogative.

HMTKSteve

DM's prerogative is a wonderful thing. Even if the player is creative and very "in tuned" with his character a roll may still be necessary if the player has more knowledge than the character. You need to ask yourself if the character could come up with this plan or not.

If you have a structural engineer at the table playing a fighter with a 6 Int and 7 Wis you should not provide him any bonuses if he lays out a detailed plan for knocking out the structural supports of a guard tower. Likewise if the character has a high Int/Wis and the player knows absolutely nothing about engineering you are better off going with a straight die roll (plus bonuses).

It's all subjective though and up to you to decide how you want to run your game. It is then up to the players to decide if they want to play under your rules. with all that said, this is not a thread for discussing the player vs. character knowledge problem in RPG gaming.

Wyatt

Has anyone else noticed that all the 3rd edition iconic characters are dead in the 4th Edition artwork??

I looked over some of PDF's this weekend and found more then one case of this happening. The easiest two to spot are in the Monster Manuel and Player's Handbook. The Medusa artwork and the artwork for Rituals respectively. Also, I found the image of the storm giant clenching his over sized LIGHTNING PENIS to be pretty damn funny.

I don't know if their is some animosity towards early editions or just WoTC's less the subtle way of saying. "The game you loved is dead. Deal with it."

Seriously,,, I hate them for sucking the the soul out of the game I loved

TheWhaleShark

They're definitely trying to emphasize that this is a totally different game. I was even reading through the DMG, and it sounds like sessions are broken down into defined segments: encounter, milestone, extended rest. You reach a milestone (and gain an action point) for completing 2 encounters without taking an extended rest.

Seriously.

I find the concept of streamlining the system to be interesting, but as is often the case, they've streamlined the soul out of it.