The Definition of Sport.

Luke Burrage

When reading the Athleticism thread I was thinking "What about motor sports?" as a topic that geeks enjoy. But I guess very few people actually do this sport as opposed to watching or following it. Are motor sports an athletic activity? I hear that F1 drivers have to be very, very fit.

Anyway, it got me on to thinking about the way I normally define what is or isn't a sport. Here you go, please disagree with me:

1. Competition with another person or team has to be involved. If you just like swimming or running you aren't doing a sport. You are doing the same training that people who actually compete at that activity do but unless you are involved in an event where it is possible to win or lose it isn't sport.

2. The must be no motor or engine attached to carry out the activity. It has to be physical human fitness that provides the energy to carry out the activity, or the human body that guides "natural" energy to carry out the activity. So surfing uses the power of the sea, and downhill bmx uses gravity and gears to provide more energy than the human can get alone. Skydiving is a sport because skydiving begins when the body leaves the plane that is powered by props. And tow in surfing is also a sport because the act of surfing begins when the surfer lets go of the line. So motor sport isn't in the same class as regular sport because "the more powerful the engine the better you are".

3. If you can do the activity by telling someone else who has never played before to carry out your actions for you, and through this method you can still play, it is not a sport. So this excludes chess and other board or card games.

My definitions sort of come a bit unstuck when I think about computer games. Are they a sport? You are competing against others.... check. Are you attached to a motor? I think this is the tricky bit. I say yes. The effort required to run around a Counterstike map isn't provided by yourself. You can't just tell someone else what to do... while you are controlling the gun up and down to shoot, and you couldn't tell someone "point the gun higher and shoot", in a way you are actually instructing the computer to move the gun of something else. When having a paintballing match you have to carry the gun, run with it, point it and shoot it yourself. Compressed air powers the paintballs, but maybe this is just a like skydiving. A motor (compressor) was used to input the energy needed for the activity to be possible, but the uses of the resulting energy is controlled purely by human effort and skill.

Not sure what conclusions to draw here. Except though an activity might not be something I consider a sport, and even if you are one step removed from the action or if the energy comes from burning fossil fuels, the skill or athleticism involved can be at a higher level.

lackofcheese

When having a paintballing match you have to carry the gun, run with it, point it and shoot it yourself. Compressed air powers the paintballs, but maybe this is just a like skydiving. A motor (compressor) was used to input the energy needed for the activity to be possible, but the uses of the resulting energy is controlled purely by human effort and skill.

I think your definition was broken somewhat by this. "Controlling the resulting energy" is something you're doing with motor sports as well, after all.

Apreche

Any competition whatsoever that tests any physical ability is a sport. Chess is not a sport. Sure, there is physical activity involved in moving the pieces, but your skill at that physical activity does not have any influence on winning and losing. Counter-Strike is a sport, as your atheltic abilities of coordination and reflexes are directly related to the winning and losing. Paintball is a sport and motor racing are also sports. Sure, there are other factors involved in those sports, such as the guns and engines, but there is an athletic element as well. If there is any significant athletic element at all in a competition, it can be called sport.

Luke Burrage

When having a paintballing match you have to carry the gun, run with it, point it and shoot it yourself. Compressed air powers the paintballs, but maybe this is just a like skydiving. A motor (compressor) was used to input the energy needed for the activity to be possible, but the uses of the resulting energy is controlled purely by human effort and skill.

I think your definition was broken somewhat by this. "Controlling the resulting energy" is something you're doing with motor sports as well, after all.

Exactly, which is why I said it comes unstuck. However, do think there is a difference between using "stored" energy, like gravity when ski-ing, and "throttled" energy, like in motor sport.

Gravity is a constant, so two people going down the same ski slope have the same energy at their disposal. For windsurfing, wind and sea conditions are pretty consistent over the course, or at least all competitors have to put up with the same conditions, and their skill at using patchy wind is also tested. Same with surfing, the waves are the same for both surfers on the lineup, and the skill of choosing the right wave is tested. With paintballing, pulling the trigger releases a preset and constant (though decreasing by the end) burst of air. This is true for both teams or players. Same with biathlon, the energy released by each trigger pull is a constant, and the skill tested isn't the speed of the bullet but the accuracy.

The difference with motor sport is that the energy released isn't constant. If the sport is a test of speed, the overwhelming factor is not the athletic ability of the driver, it is the size of the motor. There are exceptions, but in racing this is pretty much always the case. In F1 I think the athletic element is there, but not significant compared to the technology of the car, the durability of the components, the daring of the driver, the coordination of the team and the tactics.

Motor sports where racing isn't the aim... again I can see more how these compare athletic ability. In freestyle motor cross, for example, having a bigger motor lets you make longer and higher jumps, but the skills tested are more to do with controlling the bike in the air with your body.

As for video games, I'll go with them being a game rather than a sport. If the only muscles needed are those that control your wrist and fingers, I just can't accept it as an athletic ability. An athlete is usually defined as someone with a high level of control of running, jumping or throwing or otherwise using their arms, legs or body. This is why in the "athleticism" topic, nobody mentioned that they are very athletic because they play quake. Sure, Counter-Strike does test reaction and coordination directly, and while these are also skills of an athlete, I don't think they are the defining characteristics of athleticism. Instead, by common understanding and by just checking a dictionary, the words that come to mind are strength, physically active, agility, stamina, sturdy, muscular, physical skills and exertion. While I can go with all of them for F1 drivers, Counter-Strike? Not so much.

And I'll end by quoting myself so it doesn't seem as though I'm bashing the skill involved in video game playing:

... though an activity might not be something I consider a sport, and even if you are one step removed from the action or if the energy comes from burning fossil fuels, the skill or athleticism involved can be at a higher level.

Cremlian

Any competition whatsoever that tests any physical ability is a sport. Chess is not a sport. Sure, there is physical activity involved in moving the pieces, but your skill at that physical activity does not have any influence on winning and losing. Counter-Strike is a sport, as your atheltic abilities of coordination and reflexes are directly related to the winning and losing. Paintball is a sport and motor racing are also sports. Sure, there are other factors involved in those sports, such as the guns and engines, but there is an athletic element as well. If there is any significant athletic element at all in a competition, it can be called sport.

So, Counterstrike will stop being considered a sport when we are able to control it with our brains instead of our hands being controlled by our brain?

Luke Burrage

Also, if anyone is a fan of F1, my girlfriend works for Tilke, the architecture firm that designs and builds pretty much every new F1 circuit these days. If you have any questions about track design I can ask the person who, for example, decided on the route of the new Singapore F1 night race this year.

Sparkybuzzed

It's picky, I know, but can we use the plural? Using the word "Sport" to define a group of activities bugs the hell out of me. If there's more than one, it's "Sports." Eat it, Albion.

My definitions are a bit narrower between "sport," "game" and "athletic event." Sports require physical interaction between sides (real, honest, American football), games require there to be multiple sides with little/no direct physical interaction (baseball) and athletic events require only timed competition (track & field).

lackofcheese

It's picky, I know, but can we use the plural?

Go ahead, but I like the singular

Apreche

If the sport is a test of speed, the overwhelming factor is not the athletic ability of the driver, it is the size of the motor.

You're making a good argument about racing not being fair and balanced, but you're not making a good argument about it not being a sport. Put Michael Schumacher in a shitty F1 car, and he'll still be near the front. Put yourself behind the wheel of the best F1 car, and you'll probably die. Yes, there are more skills than just athleticism being tested in motor sports, but as long as there is any athleticism at all involved, it's a sport.

So, Counterstrike will stop being considered a sport when we are able to control it with our brains instead of our hands being controlled by our brain?

Exactly right. There has to be muscle tissue involved. The brain is just nervous tissue.

gomidog

Are motor sports an athletic activity?

Lol, Scott do you remember you got into a big fight with my mom about this?

....I won't tell her about this thread.

Apreche

Lol, Scott do you remember you got into a big fight with my mom about this?

Yeah. She kept turning into a values issue when it was a semantic issue.

Dkong

Honestly, I've tried to come up with a definition of "sport" before, and there's ALWAYS tons of flaws and obviously left out sports that should be included in said definition, but aren't.
So really, I don't bother trying to come up with a definition of sport, nor do I want to even try. It's typically pointless.

Luke Burrage

If the sport is a test of speed, the overwhelming factor is not the athletic ability of the driver, it is the size of the motor.

You're making a good argument about racing not being fair and balanced, but you're not making a good argument about it not being a sport. Put Michael Schumacher in a shitty F1 car, and he'll still be near the front. Put yourself behind the wheel of the best F1 car, and you'll probably die. Yes, there are more skills than just athleticism being tested in motor sports, but as long as there is any athleticism at all involved, it's a sport.
...
There has to be muscle tissue involved. The brain is just nervous tissue.

Scott, are you actually serious about this? If a single muscle is involved then it is a sport?

Let me clear things up here: You say any form of competition that involves athleticism is a sport. Then you say that a single muscle has to be involved for it to be a sport. Which is it? Athletic activity or any use of any muscle no matter how small? I'm not trying to make this into a value judgment, I'm really trying to stick to semantics:

1. physically active and strong; good at athletics or sports: an athletic child.
2. of, like, or befitting an athlete.
3. of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina: athletic sports; athletic training.
4. for athletics: an athletic field.
5. Psychology. (of a physical type) having a sturdy build or well-proportioned body structure.

Nothing in any of the definitions of the word athleticism lets you get away with calling playing a computer game a sport. A test of fast reactions and some coordination... yes! It is probably the BEST test of those skills as so little movement and therefor delay is needed to register and utilize the inputs of the player. But a sport? Not by any definition you have yet suggested, as quick reactions and coordination don't make one an athlete.

...

I haven't read the entire topic, only the first post. But isn't the definition

Testing one's ability against other human beings.

sufficient?

All I really have to say is that you're making it needlessly complicated Luke, again, only judging from that first post.

Apreche

Uh, look at definition 3.

involving the use of physical skills or capabilities.

It doesn't say anything about the scale of those physical skills or abilities. Any physical skill or ability makes something a sport. The important thing is that it only counts as a sport if the physical abilities matter in terms of the competition. Sudoku is not a sport, even though you use muscles to write the numbers, because the athletic part of it does not have any effect on the result. Competitive eating is a sport.

lackofcheese

I'm willing to agree with Scott on this one.
Semantics is all there is to it, and Scott's definition is the soundest from a semantic point of view.

Luke Burrage

Uh, look at definition 3.

involving the use of physical skills or capabilities.

It doesn't say anything about the scale of those physical skills or abilities. Any physical skill or ability makes something a sport. The important thing is that it only counts as a sport if the physical abilities matter in terms of the competition. Sudoku is not a sport, even though you use muscles to write the numbers, because the athletic part of it does not have any effect on the result. Competitive eating is a sport.

Why not look at the whole of definition 3, in context?

3. of or pertaining to athletes; involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina: athletic sports; athletic training.

It doesn't stop at "...or capabilities", it actually goes on to list what kind of capabilities it is referring to, namely strength (not needed for computer games), agility (not needed for computer games) or stamina (not needed for computer games). I suggest every single one of the definitions, including number 3, show that athleticism IS to do with scale of physical skills or activities.

Apreche

It doesn't stop at "...or capabilities", it actually goes on to list what kind of capabilities it is referring to, namely strength (not needed for computer games), agility (not needed for computer games) or stamina (not needed for computer games). I suggest every single one of the definitions, including number 3, show that athleticism IS to do with scale of physical skills or activities.

It says the word "as", meaning "such as". Those are just examples. Thus, it also refers to other capabilities that are not listed.

lackofcheese

How about catching a ball?
I would say that such an activity is dominated by stuff like co-ordination, and yet it is very much a "sporting" activity.

I think your definition is unmanageable, luke.

Lyddi

Is cheerleading a sport? Is marching band a sport? They both exist to entertain an audience, they both have to learn formations and movements and stuff, and they both require somewhat strenuous physical activity. They also both go to competitions to compete against other teams (if you consider squads and bands to be teams). But are they sports? I don't think so, but I'm not sure why. Its more like a gut feeling.

Luke Burrage

If you read my original post, I was trying to work out why people didn't put down things like "driving to work" or "playing counter-strike" as the athletic activities throughout the day. Now I see everyone was mistaken, and they should have put down every single thing they do when they move their body ever, because every single activity that uses any muscle ever is, by Scott's reasoning, athletic. I call bullshit.

It says the word "as", meaning "such as". Those are just examples. Thus, it also refers to other capabilities that are not listed.

No, they are not "just" examples. They are the main examples given. All of them reflect larger scale physical activity than pressing buttons. Also, every other example in all the other definitions also refer directly and exclusively to activities of larger scale, and references bodily fitness and track and field events.

Your reasoning is this: "It doesn't NOT say X, therefor X is also true." Sorry, this is a complete non-sequitur. That is like me saying "In the dictionary definition of Food it doesn't say this poisonous acid ISN'T food, and in every example given it says that food is something else, but in one definition it has the word "as" so I guess I can say poisonous acid is food!"

How about catching a ball?
I would say that such an activity is dominated by stuff like co-ordination, and yet it is very much a "sporting" activity.

Of course. Catching a ball is part of many sports. Just catching a ball isn't a sport, but during a competition it can be.

I think your definition is unmanageable, luke.

So clumping everything together in the same bag is more manageable? Why not call a game a game? Why not call a motor sport a motor sport? Why should everything have to be a defined as a sport?

Apreche

If you read my original post, I was trying to work out why people didn't put down things like "driving to work" or "playing counter-strike" as the athletic activities throughout the day. Now I see everyone was mistaken, and they should have put down every single thing they do when they move their body ever, because every single activity that uses any muscle ever is, by Scott's reasoning, athletic. I call bullshit.

Driving to work is not a sport because there is no competition. If you had some game like, who can get to work first, then it could be considered sport.

If you think that there needs to be a certain level of physical activity in order for something to count as athletic, how exactly do you want to measure it? What is the line between athletic and non-athletic physical activity?

Starfox

What if we define it as a spectrum of sportiness? You don't have to arbitrarily say, "this is a sport, this is not." Different activities have differing levels of sportitude.

Apreche

What if we define it as a spectrum of sportiness? You don't have to arbitrarily say, "this is a sport, this is not." Different activities have differing levels of sportitude.

I'm not going to argue and say that Counter-Strike is more athletic than track + field. However, it is a tiny bit athletic. A sport is any athletic competition. Therefore, Counter-Strike is a sport, even if it is only a little bit athletic relative to other sports.

Candy Land is a board game, and so is Go. Candy Land requires absolutely no brain power whatsoever. Go requires a great deal of brain power. Candy Land is much less of a game than Go, but it is still, regretfully, a game.

Erwin

I just wanna say that Nascar is not a sport. Now Rallying is a proper sport

Luke Burrage

If you think that there needs to be a certain level of physical activity in order for something to count as athletic, how exactly do you want to measure it? What is the line between athletic and non-athletic physical activity?

Scott, with respect, I don't feel there is any point continuing this discussion. There isn't an exact line between something being athletic and something not being athletic. I've shown many ways that playing a FPS game is not an athletic activity as it fall short of EVERY definition of athleticism in every dictionary and every encyclopedia so far. Also, in the thread about the very topic, nobody even imagined it could be considered an athletic activity, with Rym's definition being something along the lines of "If it raises your heart rate" and another definition being "If it makes you sweat". I've outlined that it has to at least involve the movement of limbs or the body itself. Other examples show that being an athlete portrays the ability to run, jump or throw. Others that include strength, agility and stamina.

The ONLY definition where FPS playing comes close to being considered an athletic ability is your own. If you want to stick to that, go for it, but if you insist on debating from such a position I'm just not going to bother.

Debating is fun if both parties are honest and are open to having their minds changed by contrasting arguments and evidence. I agreed that motor sports can judge physical prowess as well as mechanical factors. I also stated repeatedly that game playing is in no way less valid by not being a sport... I'm not arguing any value judgment. Your style of forum debate is up to you, I just don't see the point.

HMTKSteve

Candy Land is a board game, and so is Go. Candy Land requires absolutely no brain power whatsoever. Go requires a great deal of brain power. Candy Land is much less of a game than Go, but it is still, regretfully, a game.

Candy Land does test your stamina. I mean how long can you play that game before you tear your hair out in frustration?

I don't know if I would even call Candy Land a game because all you do is flip a card and move. There is no skill in the game at all and no luck. The only decision that comes up is "who goes first?" After that everything is preordained.

lackofcheese

Sadly, it counts as a game because it is a game of chance.

Apreche

Also, in the thread about the very topic, nobody even imagined it could be considered an athletic activity, with Rym's definition being something along the lines of "If it raises your heart rate" and another definition being "If it makes you sweat". I've outlined that it has to at least involve the movement of limbs or the body itself. Other examples show that being an athlete portrays the ability to run, jump or throw. Others that include strength, agility and stamina.

Counter-Strike can raise your heart rate, make you sweat, it involves moving the limbs of the body. It involves agility and stamina. What more do you want?

HMTKSteve

So... Is the Wii a video game system or a sport game system? At what point does the physical activity required to play a video game move it from being a video game to being a sport played via a simulator?

Take the indoor golf ranges for example. They have a special screen and video system where you hit the ball and the system projects (onto the screen) the results. Would you call that a video game system or something else? Would you just call it a simulator and be done with it?

As to the Wii in particular is there a certain point where the amount of activity required turns it into a sport machine or is a video game system a video game system no matter what?

Luke Burrage

Counter-Strike can raise your heart rate, make you sweat, it involves moving the limbs of the body. It involves agility and stamina. What more do you want?

You've got to do better than this. Your arguments are pitiful. Every single piece of evidence I've referenced has clearly indicated BODILY activity, movements of limbs, etc. I mentioned sweating and raised heart rate as something resulting from physical exertion. You counter with sweating and raised heart activity that could equally result from watching a horror movie. Once, when playing Hearts, I completed 3 shooting the moon plays, three times in a row. At the end of the third game my heart was pounding like a mother fucker, and I was sweating from every pore of my body. I've had the same kind of experience playing many games. Next, fingers are not limbs. No amount of finger agility matches the kind of bodily agility implicit in every mention in all of the definitions and examples I've shown so far. Finally, the stamina involved in playing FPS is overwhelmingly mental, not physical. An if you now type "But it does test physical stamina too", read what you have just typed again. Your defense of FPS being a sport relies solely on a minor quibble with a sub argument of your personal disagreement with one example of one point of one definition out of many examples I have given so far.