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How is this possible?

edited July 2008 in Everything Else
Dying of cancer, Thomas Amschwand did everything he was told to make sure his wife would collect on the life insurance policy he had through his employer.
"He was obsessed with dotting every `i' and crossing every `t'," Melissa Amschwand-Bellinger recalled about her husband, who died in 2001 at age 30.

But Spherion Corp., the temporary staffing company where Amschwand worked, told Amschwand-Bellinger she would not receive any of the $426,000 in benefits she believed she was due. When she went to court, Spherion succeeded in getting her lawsuit thrown out. The Supreme Court on June 27 refused to review the case.

Amschwand-Bellinger received a refund of the few thousand dollars in insurance premiums she and her husband dutifully had paid. The total, she said, would not cover the costs of his funeral.

....

Sen. Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said at a recent hearing that before ERISA became law, employees clearly could sue for benefits in state courts.

The court rulings, said Leahy, D-Vt., have left people "more vulnerable than they were before the law was passed."

Spherion's decision to deny benefits to Amschwand-Bellinger turned on an odd set of facts. Spherion, which employs about 300,000 people, switched insurers after Thomas Amschwand was diagnosed with a rare form of heart cancer. The new policy did not take effect until an employee worked one full day. Spherion never informed Amschwand of the requirement.
Employers use federal law to deny benefits

This makes no sense and is entirely frightening. The thought that your employer can change insurers, and in so doing, remove your ability to benefit from insurance you are paying for.

I'm with Leahy on this one. If the employee qualified under the old plan he should also qualify him under the new plan. Telling him he is all set when he has to come in for a day is wrong and the blame is with the employer.

I can understand blocking frivolous lawsuits against insurance companies but all they are looking for is to receive the benefit they paid the premiums for. I'd be willing to bet that if you cancelled an insurance policy and asked for your premiums back you would be laughed at.

More companies should be unionized.
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Comments

  • Dude, life insurance costs like $260 a year. The solution is to buy your own, not to destroy the economy by forced unionization.
  • I purchased a decent life insurance policy for almost nothing through my credit union. They are easy to get and there is no need for more companies to unionize based on this issue. (BTW, I am a cancer survivor, so even with medical issues, these policies are attainable for those that have a moderate income).
  • Term life insurance FTW.
  • RymRym
    edited July 2008
    I don't think I need to mention the sheer, overpriced insanity of the funeral industry in the United States. Life insurance should be to cover the needs of dependents, not to pay for a ludicrously expensive casket and headstone.

    I honestly only have life insurance because it's free. I might consider it had I dependents, but I have them not.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • It is usually a sound idea to have a life insurance policy that covers slightly more than your debt (mortgage, college loans, car payments, etc.) and any any funeral arrangements you would like. Make sure that you appoint a proper beneficiary of your policy (particularly if you do not have a spouse) that will see that the money goes where you wanted it to. Be clear about your desires, and make certain that you have an up-to-date will (preferably housed in a water-proof and fire-proof safe - most estate attorneys provide such storage) and that all out-of-date copies are destroyed. This is just my opinion and I am not a lawyer nor a financial advisor. This is just my basic, common sense approach.
  • It is usually a sound idea to have a life insurance policy that covers slightly more than your debt
    Frankly, I'm of the mind that I should like to die in as much debt as possible. ^_~
  • It is usually a sound idea to have a life insurance policy that covers slightly more than your debt
    Frankly, I'm of the mind that I should like to die in as much debt as possible. ^_~
    Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
  • Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    That's bullshit. If my mom goes on a spending spree and then kicks the can, why should I have to pay up? If there is an inheritance of some sort, it's fair for the creditors to take as much of that as they need to pay off the debt, but if there isn't enough, tough shit. You were unlucky or stupid enough to lend money to someone who is now unable to pay you back. Sorry.

    I also plan to go into as much debt as possible before kicking the bucket.
  • Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    That's bullshit. If my mom goes on a spending spree and then kicks the can, why should I have to pay up? If there is an inheritance of some sort, it's fair for the creditors to take as much of that as they need to pay off the debt, but if there isn't enough, tough shit. You were unlucky or stupid enough to lend money to someone who is now unable to pay you back. Sorry.

    I also plan to go into as much debt as possible before kicking the bucket.
    If your mom goes on a spending spree before kicking the bucket you are safe, your father is not (if they are married).
  • Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    As far as I've read, only insofar as the debt is paid as much as possible from the estate. Maybe Michigan is different from other states, but I've seen this strategy come to fruition.
  • edited July 2008
    If that is the case, couldn't one transfer ownership of the estate before one's death?
    Post edited by lackofcheese on
  • edited July 2008
    Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    As far as I've read, only insofar as the debt is paid as much as possible from the estate. Maybe Michigan is different from other states, but I've seen this strategy come to fruition.
    So you are saying that you would leave your spouse or children with nothing (or in horrible debt) if you had any?
    Keep in mind that I am married and that I plan to have kid - so I have a different perspective.
    If that is the case, couldn't one transfer ownership of the estate before one's death?
    I believe that there are limits on this, and that there are some heavy "gift taxes" that apply. Also, it is difficult to transfer large assets from one person to another at a reasonable tax rate without both taking a blow.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • edited July 2008
    Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    That's bullshit. If my mom goes on a spending spree and then kicks the can, why should I have to pay up? If there is an inheritance of some sort, it's fair for the creditors to take as much of that as they need to pay off the debt, but if there isn't enough, tough shit.
    I think the point Mrs. MacRoss was making was just that - the inheritance would be wasted. If B, the child of decedent A, finds that there was a $100K estate, but that there is $99K of debt that has to be paid out of the estate, B will probably not be happy, even if B doesn't have to pay anything out of his own pocket.
    Unless you have dependents/family that then become responsible for your debt.
    That's bullshit. If my mom goes on a spending spree and then kicks the can, why should I have to pay up? If there is an inheritance of some sort, it's fair for the creditors to take as much of that as they need to pay off the debt, but if there isn't enough, tough shit. You were unlucky or stupid enough to lend money to someone who is now unable to pay you back. Sorry.

    I also plan to go into as much debt as possible before kicking the bucket.
    If your mom goes on a spending spree before kicking the bucket you are safe, your father is not (if they are married).
    Whether a spouse is responsible for a decedent's debts is dependent upon the type of debt and the state in which the couple resides.
    If that is the case, couldn't one transfer ownership of the estate before one's death?
    Such a transfer would likely be held to be invalid and the creditors could still get to it.

    Here is a brief exposition on the assignment of debt in a probate estate. There are lots and lots of variations based on type of property, type of debt, and the relation of the beneficiary.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • I think the point Mrs. MacRoss was making was just that - the inheritance would be wasted. If B, the child of decedent A, finds that there was a $100K estate, but that there is $99K of debt that has to be paid out of the estate, B will probably not be happy, even if B doesn't have to pay anything out of his own pocket.
    This is true, but I think the way inheritance works in general need to be rethought. I mean, isn't that what lefties are always complaining about? That it's unfair that some people are rich, just because their parents are rich, and that others are poor, just because their parents are poor? It ties into copyright law as well, as we have many people making lots of money because their parents or grandparents happen to have been great creators, and their works continue to profit, or even create more profit, after they have died.

    At the very least we should bring back the inheritance tax that Bush got rid of.
  • edited July 2008
    This is true, but I think the way inheritance works in general need to be rethought.
    Good luck. Much of Trusts and Estates law dates from Shakespeare's time and before. I mean, we've gotten rid of things like primogeniture, (they didn't get rid of it in England until 1925), but The Rule in Shelley's Case is still good in some jurisdictions and The Rule against Perpetuities is still valid in many more. We're talking old rules here. They're not gonna change anytime soon.
    At the very least we should bring back the inheritance tax that Bush got rid of.
    Was it ever finally repealed? I didn't think it was.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Was it ever finally repealed? Ididn't think it was.
    I don't think it was repealed, but it was changed in some way that allowed a bunch of rich people to save millions, including Cheney IIRC.
  • edited July 2008
    Was it ever finally repealed? Ididn't think it was.
    I don't think it was repealed, but it was changed in some way that allowed a bunch of rich people to save millions, including Cheney IIRC.
    I believe there were some changes. That was the vilest, most despicable PR campaign I've ever seen. To this day I cannot believe that they successfully convinced people that they would "lose the family farm" over "the death tax."
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Doesn't incorporating or forming an LLC (for the family business) get around the death tax?

    Why should the transfer of assets upon ones death be subject to taxes?

    Last time I checked $10,000 was the limit on gifts per year. I tried talking my mother-in-law into putting that much money into a college fund "gift" for my daughter each year but no luck. Then again her mother lived well into her 90's so she will probably also live a long time too. (She is just shy of 70.)
  • edited July 2008
    Steve, no one who has ever posted in this forum will ever have to pay or be personally affected in any way by "the death tax", so any time spent thinking about how to avoid it is simply not very productive.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Steve, no one who has ever posted in this forum will ever have to pay or be personally affected in any way by "the death tax", so any time spent thinking about how to avoid it is simply not very productive.
    The estate tax's gradual disappearance -- and reappearance -- was mandated as part of Bush's 2001 tax cut plan. Congress decided to make the repeal temporary as a way to save revenue. After phasing out in 2010, the estate tax will return in 2011 with a $1 million exemption and a levy with a tax rate of as much as 55 percent on estates of larger size.
    Senate Plan to Repeal Inheritance Tax Fails

    If anything over $1 million is subject to the death tax I know some members of my family would be subject to it. My mother-in-law's estate is worth well over that. Her real estate property alone is worth over $1 million. When you add in her stocks and bonds it is considerably higher (though not as high as it was a few years ago).
  • edited July 2008
    If anything over $1 million is subject to thedeath taxI know some members of my family would be subject to it.
    1. Bullshit. I might even believe your mother-in-law was that rich (if I had been drinking) but more than one member of your family has an estate worth more than $1 million? If you come from such a rich family you wouldn't have been screwing around as a Corporal in the Army and you would have a better education. Also, you would have better things to do than read this board all the time. Finally, your wife put you on a $20.00 per week allowance. That doesn't sound like someone with more than one family member who has an estate worth more than $1 million.

    2. The exclusion this year is $2 million. No estate less than that will have any estate tax assessed against it. Next year it will be $3.5 million. I simply don't believe that you have any connection whatsoever to an estate that large. The exemption you're talking about would occur after a year in which no tax was assessed against anyone. Then the exemption would go back up to $1 million. I don't believe that would be the final limit on the exemption.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Maybe you could leave the debt to someone you really didn't like.
  • They would get a choice whether or not to accept it.
  • Scott: Intentionally sticking your creditors is evil.
    Hungry Joe: the wealth of one's relatives is irrelevant to one's own financial status. I am surrounded by millionaires but I am not one (yet).
  • Scott: Intentionally sticking your creditors is evil.
    Sure, if I get credit, I repay it. If I happen to die, well, you can't blame me for not paying back a debt if I'm dead. If I continued to live, I would have paid. If they happen to get screwed because I no longer exist, that's their fault for giving credit to someone who is so old.
  • Bullshit. I might even believe your mother-in-law was that rich (if I had been drinking) but more than one member of your family has an estate worth more than $1 million? If you come from such a rich family you wouldn't have been screwing around as a Corporal in the Army and you would have a better education.
    Joe, you are being classist. I, too, have relatives with villas in foreign countries, beach houses, and cushy apartments in Manhatten, but I'm not exactly rolling in the dough. As frustrating as Steve's arguments often are, there's no need to resort to petty ad hominem attacks when he says something relatively benign.
  • Scott: Intentionally sticking your creditors is evil.
    Sure, if I get credit, I repay it. If I happen to die, well, you can't blame me for not paying back a debt if I'm dead. If I continued to live, I would have paid. If they happen to get screwed because I no longer exist, that's their fault for giving credit to someone who is so old.
    Age discrimination in lending is illegal.
  • Age discrimination in lending is illegal.
    Ahh, a very complicated issue! Shall we argue it? Oh, shall we!
  • Age discrimination in lending is illegal.
    Well, that just brings us back to the previous discrimination discussion.

    Sure, age discrimination in general is bad. However, when lending money to someone, age is actually a consideration that matters a great deal. If someone is very old, that factors into their ability to repay what they borrow. It's not ok to discriminate against physically disabled people, but if I am hiring construction workers, being in a wheelchair is going to make you less qualified for the job. If I run a BBQ restaurant where half the menu is ribs, I can refuse to hire religious people who avoid the pigs. If someone is deaf, it's not discrimination if I don't hire them for a job taking dictation. It is discrimination if I don't hire a deaf person to be a writer (and they are otherwise the most qualified candidate).

    Insurance companies, as much as I don't like them, have the right idea. The actuaries take into account all statistically significant factors, and leave out all insignificant factors, when calculating premiums. When you are old, health, life, and auto insurance premiums all go up. It's just common sense.

    It's patently unfair to force someone to lend their money to someone who is unlikely to pay it back.
  • Age discrimination in lending is illegal.
    Ahh, a very complicated issue! Shall we argue it? Oh, shall we!
    We have shall!
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