Gaming in 2008

Dkong

LackofcheeseDiscussion:- So far in 2008, what good games have there been? Why so few / many?

Well, I think this is a good way to start the thread off.

I'll answer...this is going to be games released in '08 only...and I'm picking games based off of Metacritic's scores. I'm really, really trying to not bring in my own personal opinion into this (whenever I do, it's a shitstorm, so I'm trying to avoid that...).

DS (honestly the only system I play nowadays) - World Ends with You, FFIV, Advance Wars, Layton, Etrian Odyssey 2, FFTA2
Wii - Brawl, Mario Kart, Okami, Wii fit, No More Heroes
PS3 - MGS4...uh *crickets*?
360- Unreal Tournament 3, GRID
PSP- God of War chains of olympus, Patapon, Crisis Core, Devil May Cry 4, Rainbow Six Vegas 2
Non-exclusive games- GTAIV, Civ Revolution, Burnout Paradise

As for why so few/many...I think this sums it up:

Posted By: lackofcheeseIt is far more profitable to target games at huge demographics.
(That's what "hardcore" and "casual" is really a question of,demographics- classify the gamers first, then classify the games based on the target audience)
Given this, why will any game company even bother to target mine more specifically?

So, I guess, here's what Dkong wants to say:
Gaming began as a spectrum of niche markets; now it is becoming very mainstream.
The spread of gaming to the mainstream is killing off these niches

And really, you don't see all the generic games for the DS on that list, but according to my friend that works at Gamestop, that's what sells. He says they will MAYBE get 1-2 copies of FFIV. Though, there are problems with citing my friend at Gamestop. 1. he doesn't see all the sales that go through. 2. this is a single Gamestop in a single state in a single country. We're not talking millions of people...

lackofcheese

Please note that I'm not entirely sure of my own opinion yet, I was just trying to help Dkong out by clarifying his.

This could be said to be the beginnings of a counter-argument also:-

That's essentially it. Nintendo's making a killing off of the Wii and Wii Fit. According to VGchartz (not sure how reliable they are...they were the first google hit I got), Wii Fit has 5.4mil sales and Brawl has 6mil. To me, that's scary, especially considering that the Wii fit costs almost double that of Brawl.

Well, consider thatin its entire lifetime, Super Smash Bros. Melee has only had 7 million sales, making it the best-selling GC game of all time (In its first two months, it exceeded 1 mil).

Even if "hardcore gaming" will be relegated to a small slice of the pie, if that slice is way bigger than the entire pie of yesteryear, should you even care?

So, now we discuss based on games and/or sales figures.

Railith

There's not much in 08 because we had a ton of AAA games in 07. Those games usually take about 2-3 years to make so we're probably not going to get another major helping until 09-10.

lackofcheese

Some slight additions / corrections to your list, Dkong.

PS3 - MGS4
360- Unreal Tournament 3, Rez HD (so you're including XBLA?), Ninja Gaiden II
PC - Sins of a Solar Empire
Non-exclusive games- GTAIV, Civ Revolution, Burnout Paradise, GRID, Devil May Cry 4, Rainbow Six Vegas 2, Battlefield: Bad Company

In any case, it certainly seems that 2008 is a rather poor year for gaming. In particular, the fact that there is only one PC game of note this year to date (Well, I guess Mass Effect also counts, even if it is a port) is truly sad. However, I wouldn't take this as evidence that "hardcore gaming" is dying. For the moment, I'd stick with Railith's explanation.

Also, I think it's time I refuted my own point.

It is far more profitable to target games at huge demographics.
(That's what "hardcore" and "casual" is really a question of,demographics- classify the gamers first, then classify the games based on the target audience)
Given this, why will any game company even bother to target mine more specifically?

Two solid reasons:-
1. It is often the hardcore gamers who go into game design, and when they get the chance, they will make games they themselves are interested in. Sadly, they don't get too much control over what's made.
2. Economics:- Diminishing returns. Sure, casual games being put out make more money, for now. But for each additional game produced, less and less additional people will make a purchase. Eventually, it would be more profitable to focus on a niche.

(1) means that there will be people willing to make those games.
(2) means that there is a worthwhile market for those games.

Dkong

(so you're including XBLA?)

Had no idea...I just took the crap that was posted on Metacritic...

lackofcheese

You might as well modify the list in your OP, or argue about my changes.

Schnevets

Firstly, I would just like to say I feel DKong got overzealous intially in his post because he was as pissed off as I was about Morio-Kun calling 360 hardcore.

Secondly, this was a year of sequels: Very, very big sequels, a la MGS4, GTA4, NG2, and GoW2. These studios may have been making other, slightly more niche-y games (Zone of the Enders, a Rockstar franchise that isn't GTA), but instead they focused their resources on ensuring these live up to the hype (and make profit).

Thirdly, the market demands a cinematic experience. We have technology to render particles of dust spreading after an explosion, and people want to see that, damnit! This means much bigger development costs, much more investment from people looking to make a profit, and an intolerance to anything that doesn't push the hardware to the limit by making everything brown (realistic) and rendering each hair individually!
That's on PS3 and 360. Meanwhile, on the wii, I think the opinion of my cousin summarizes things perfectly:
*I'm trying Brawl for the first time (and owning with Pikachu)*
"So, can you do anything by shaking the wii-mote?"
"No"
"That sucks."
*Much profanity ensued as I corrected her on her ignorance*

Finally, just thought I'd mention that "hardcore game designers" don't make games. Investors, executives, and distributors make games. If the lead programmer of Madden '09 wants to completely revamp the gameplay, he won't be able to. If an RPG designer wants his game to be 200 hours long, he has to convince investors that people will still buy other games.

Hardcore gamers have been exiled to portable systems. If those systems improve any more, they'll move onto digital distribution. I think then things will improve...


Although I'm totally pumped for Spore!

lackofcheese

Investors, executives, and distributors make games.

For a certain value of "make".
It is true that these are the people with the most influence in what comes out. It's not like game designers have no influence at all, though.
I made my point a bit poorly before, but I've improved it now.

Hardcore gamers have been exiled to portable systems.

Completely unfounded claim, I must say.

In any case, I'll still say that as long as there are "hardcore gamers", there will be "hardcore games" (see my previous post for my reasoning).

Schnevets

Yeah, scratch that. It was really late when I said that. A better phrase would be "old school" gamers.

zombie a gogo

Wait 'til September and you'll start to see the great games role out. Sadly, I don't think we'll get our August gem this year (aka Dead Rising from '06 and BioShock from '07), as I don't think Too Human will be all that great a game.

Apreche

Fire Emblem DS has to come sometime.

Schnevets

Wait 'til September and you'll start to see the great games role out. Sadly, I don't think we'll get our August gem this year (aka Dead Rising from '06 and BioShock from '07), as I don't think Too Human will be all that great a game.

That notion really made me think... with all the focus on sequels, maybe there has been something that has been buried under the constant coverage of MGS4 and GTA4...

...glancing through an EGM next to my computer, I can see a few really good contenders:
Left 4 Dead
Brutal Legend
Dead Space
Star Wars: Unleashed
Prototype (even though it's been moved to 2009)
Rygar (It's coming out for the wii, why hasn't anyone told me this!?!)

Li_Akahi

I heard that Brutal Legend was cancelled, of course I might be wrong...

Schnevets

Web site's working fine...

One Sin

Fire Emblem DS has to come sometime.

I didn't know you had an interest in Fire Emblem, Scott (either that or I forgot). Which ones have you played?

Cremlian

I didn't know you had an interest in Fire Emblem, Scott (either that or I forgot). Which ones have you played?

I lent him both GBA ones, though he played the second one the most I believe.

Cremlian

And really, you don't see all the generic games for the DS on that list, but according to my friend that works at Gamestop, that's what sells. He says they will MAYBE get 1-2 copies of FFIV. Though, there are problems with citing my friend at Gamestop. 1. he doesn't see all the sales that go through. 2. this is a single Gamestop in a single state in a single country. We're not talking millions of people...

Well there are so many of those generic games that they all sell a moderate amount, and since a lot of them cost a lot less to develop, they make the publisher more money, hence more shovel ware is released. However some of the generic games have big licenses attached to them and go on to sell a ton like Iron Man even though it is a generic game.

Apreche

I didn't know you had an interest in Fire Emblem, Scott (either that or I forgot). Which ones have you played?

I lent him both GBA ones, though he played the second one the most I believe.

I played the second GBA one. It was good, but I stopped playing it for a few days, and I couldn't get back into it without starting over. It's that kind of game where I have to give it my full attention from start to finish, or I get lost.

Dkong

I'm sorta looking forward to FE for the DS. Graphics look pretty bad. I'm not a graphics whore...and since you can turn off animations, it probably won't end up being a big deal.
Then really, the last few FE games I've played weren't all that great, IMO. But since it's a remake I'll probably wind up getting it.

Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)

The only problem with another Fire Emblem for the DS is that it will preclude any other social interactions for at least a month. :P

I'm sorta looking forward to FE for the DS. Graphics look pretty bad. I'm not a graphics whore...and since you can turn off animations, it probably won't end up being a big deal.
Then really, the last few FE games I've played weren't all that great, IMO. But since it's a remake I'll probably wind up getting it.

I'd have to say that the animated graphics (like the kind used on the GBA games) is preferable to the 3D graphics used on the GC and WII games, if only for the spectacle of the critical hits. After looking at screenshots, though, I would agree that the graphics are a little too close to the uncanny valley for my tastes.

Mr. Eric

Race Driver: GRID is fuckin' amazing. I've played the demo about 6 hours and I'm downloading the full version. I suggest you get it.

Apreche

Race Driver: GRID is fuckin' amazing. I've played the demo about 6 hours and I'm downloading the full version. I suggest you get it.

Where is the demo? It's not on Steam.

Tyashki

Steam isn't the be all and end all of PC gaming, Scott. I'd post a link but it insists on giving me the AU link.

Sail

Google, people.

Mr. Eric

I've been playing it for the last 3 hours. Damn, it is awesome. I'm thinking of getting a steering wheel for this. It's incredibly difficult though, except to be restarting and flashbacking a lot if you like to not slow down for turns.

Apreche

I played the Grid demo for a few minutes using my XBox 360 controller on the PC. I don't see what's so exciting about it. In which way is this game different from Gran Turismo and/or Forza?

Lusankya

I played the Grid demo for a few minutes using my XBox 360 controller on the PC. I don't see what's so exciting about it. In which way is this game different from Gran Turismo and/or Forza?

Slow motion crashes, and the ability to pick up control from the middle of a replay. A lot of people are raving about it; personally I don't think it's all that spectacular.

Apreche

Slow motion crashes, and the ability to pick up control from the middle of a replay. A lot of people are raving about it; personally I don't think it's all that spectacular.

That's just some fancy add-ons. The core of the game is still no different than Gran Turismo. They put in "realistic" physics that are impossible to drive without an actual steering wheel.

Dkong

Slow motion crashes,

Burnout has that, far as I know....Dating back to Burnout 1, to boot.

...

Slow motion crashes,

Burnout has that, far as I know....Dating back to Burnout 1, to boot.

Perhaps because it is what the entire game series is about? The goal of Burnout is to crash, do you think it would've sold at all if those crashes only took 2 seconds?

Dkong

Slow motion crashes,

Burnout has that, far as I know....Dating back to Burnout 1, to boot.

Perhaps because it is what the entire game series is about? The goal of Burnout is to crash, do you think it would've sold at all if those crashes only took 2 seconds?

Does it really fucking matter WHY they're in the game? Point is, slow motion crashes aren't a new feature. And I suppose no one said it was a new feature in racing games...but frankly, there's no need a praise an unoriginal concept.