GeekNights 080716 - Otaking Interview

Rym

Tonight on GeekNights we interview Paul "Otaking" Johnson about his video The Rise and Fall of Anime Fan Subtitles. In the news, Boom! studios put some good comics online for free, and the great convention run of '08 is about to begin.

Scott's Thing - Rare Bill Watterson Art
Rym's Thing - Otakon DJ

Conan-San

Ha, "Otaking is a massive fagot" is the forth result on Google.

Omnutia

Ha, "Otaking is a massive fagot"isthe forth result on Google.

C'mon lets get it to number one! Isn't it "Gigantic faggot"?

I am somewhat split on this issue as I'm learning Japanese so the inclusion of Japanese in a sentence makes remembering a particular word easier but for people who aren't me, I agree with most of what he says.

Rym

I'm not split at all. I've learned plenty of Japanese just from listening while I watch properly subtitled shows. You start to just pick up on things like honorifics naturally. Besides, as he points out so well, no professional translators do any of the garbage that anime fansubbers do.

gomidog

I like how the old Ranma VHS tapes did it. They didn't say KAKUGO!, OSAGE NO ONNA, INAZUKE or any of that stuff in the subtitles, but you picked it up from listening. They would also include really good liner notes in the tape case, which could be easily replicated by posting these cultural notes on a website or in a text file that can be read at leisure. The Azumanga Daioh manga did this quite well. They would put puns in English and then explain the reference in the back of the book. I mean, I speak Japanese pretty well, well enough to watch the raws, and so even though I understand what the Japanese word means when they put it in the subtitles I think it lowers the fluidity of the translation.

Another example: When I watch K dramas with my parents, if they put the word "pabo" (which is like stupid or "baka") in Korean in the subtitles, I would never have learned what it meant.

Funfetus

There was some talk in this episode about flipping manga, and how not flipping it is a cost-saving measure. I've never really understood that. Unless you're actually flipping the whole page, then re-flipping each panel (I understand Dark Horse did this on the floppies of Blade of the Immortal, but I don't think it's been done for many others), wouldn't it just be a quick Photoshop batch job? (And if you ARE flipping each panel, that's gotta wreak hell on the page flow, and that's an even worse corruption of the artist's intent.) Unless I'm really misunderstanding something, it seems to me that the reasons usually given for not flipping are pretty valid. Though if I were to be more cynical, I might think it's a marketing decision to make manga seem more exotic.

...

Ha, "Otaking is a massive fagot"isthe forth result on Google.

It's fifth now after this show. Also, am I the only one who doesn't think his voice sounds horrible?

Your Mom

Okay, I'll have to wait to get home to have a listen to this one. Is he deriving the name from the the Otaku no Video Theme (or one of them anyways)?

Railith

I like the cut of your jib Otaking.

Eryn

Ha, "Otaking is a massive fagot"isthe forth result on Google.

It's fifth now after this show. Also, am I the only one who doesn't think his voice sounds horrible?

Nope, you're not. British accents for the win.

Haven't finished listening yet, but it's a great interview so far. I don't agree with absolutely everything he says, but I agree with most of his main beefs. I try to plug the documentary to every anime fan I know when I get the chance.

Omnutia

Nope, you're not. British accents for the win.

It's kind of a shame that you only ever get to hear the London and surrounding area accents (Sim Syn not withstanding). Have you ever heard people from Somerset talking? My personal favorite accent is Scottish but that's just my opinion.

Kate Monster

Nope, you're not. British accents for the win.

It's kind of a shame that you only ever get to hear the London and surrounding area accents (Sim Syn not withstanding). Have you ever heard people from Somerset talking? My personal favorite accent is Scottish but that's just my opinion.

Irish accent FTW!

Eryn

I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know the names for the different accents in Britain. I can distinguish between them, but I can't place them. So if I have heard a Somerset accent, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Aheheheh.

Irish is another favourite of mine, but I could be biased, as my dad's side of the family comes from Irish ancestry. That and my name. XD;;

Mankoon

This is such a great episode. There is so much to comment on but I'm still listening and at work still. But in case anyone was wondering here is his deviant art.
Otaking's DA
Drving a point home
I agree with him on the look of modern Anime. I hate the look of Naruto and other new shows. I was even more pissed when I saw what Blade of the immortal is going to look like. I don't agree with everything he says but he expresses a lot of stuff that really bothered me.

Apreche

People seem to be saying they don't agree with everything he says, or that you mostly agree with what he's saying. What part do you disagree with, and can you back it up?

Omnutia

In the run of things, I agree with him on this point about fansubs and realise that while it helps having Japanese on screen when learning, you would probably do better by including the Japanese subtitles (the ones for deaf people) and pausing every now and then to go over what was said.
When it comes to his old art vs new art ideas, I resent him trying to confuse opinion and fact. I, for one, prefer new art over old, I would say that Macross: Do you remember love could have been improved with a pallet that wasn't so bold. It was the 80s but that is the point of the argument.

Concerning the Gigantic Faggot thing.. we could always..

Bronzdragon

I don't think he is wrong, but I just don't care about some of the things he gets worked up about. Things such as shading.

Rym

Things such as shading.

When I say disagree with him, I mean specifically his documentary. I couldn't care less about his taste in anime art.

Apreche

I agree with him on this point about fansubs and realise that while it helps having Japanese on screen when learning, you would probably do better by including the Japanese subtitles

But that's just it. Having japanese on screen makes it harder to learn. If someone on the screen says the word "baka" and the subtitle also say "baka", how am I supposed to learn what baka means? When it is properly translated the audio track will say "baka," but the subtitle will say "idiot". Thus, I can learn that baka means idiot. It is easier to learn the language from the type of dynamic equivalence he is talking about.

gomidog

People seem to be saying they don't agree with everything he says, or that you mostly agree with what he's saying. What part do you disagree with, and can you back it up?

During the interview, he mentioned flipped manga as being a positive thing. I would agree with him about the translation, but I feel flipping screws up the art a little bit. It's the best of both worlds: It's cheaper AND you are able to enjoy the original look and composition of the artwork. Many manga artists didn't want their work licensed in those days because they didn't want it mirrored, and speaking for myself I must say I see where they are coming from.

Also, about his taste in animation: I think he is being a little closed minded. There are many kinds of styles that look good in cartooning. I like super flat and stylized as well as realistic, 3D and 2D and hybrids of the two. There are many ways for animation art to look good, I feel. Also, as much as he rags on Disney for not having shading, he has to take into account that they have excellent movement, something that a lot of these old anime lack. Presenting this a a flaw in "animation," I feel, is missing the point a bit. These old OVA characters can have great shading precisely because in so many shots they were essentially still drawings. To make characters with that many shadow passes move all the time would require lots of time and money. Its the eternal production triangle: High Speed, High Quality, and Low Cost. You can only have two.

One Sin

Speaking of bad translations . . .

Nerissa

I already knew that drop down screens with useless information were annoying. It wasn't until watching the documentary that it hit me, all the other shit is annoying too. Otaking has extreme views and high exceptions for translations, but if he didn't then why make a documentary. The best thing was that he stated that he made his documentary for himself, not for the good of man-kind. I agree with his views, not all of them, but the majority. Watching anime should be like driving a car. You need a couple of seconds to check your speed, but the rest of the time should be spent on the road.

I don't think that animes should be completely Americanized. If the story is based in Japan, then some things cannot be converted over. An example would be ganguro girls, since we don't have an American equivalence (other than the girls from laguna beach); we just have to state the name with the girls so there can be association.

As for his anime choices, I think Otaking got on the anime train, stopped at the 90's saying "this is it.. it can get any better.. I'm getting off."

jcc

Great interview!

One piece of advice for Scott: Try to train yourself to not fill in those silences with "you know". When you edit the stream, the filter will clear silences out, but will leave you-knows in.

Robert

I would've liked the interview to have pressed more on the points that Otaking made in his documentary, but that's just me. I agree somewhat on some of the issues, but honorifics apart from -san, -chan, -tan or that are difficult because they're used in so many different contexts. For instance, "oneesama" is used not just to refer to big sisters in certain anime, so would you have to come up with different translations for the different contexts the word is used in? Wouldn't that confuse the viewer? And then there's the whole signs issue...

Rym

honorifics apart from -san, -chan, -tan or that are difficult because they're used in so many different contexts.

You just leave them out. The experienced listener will learn what they mean and hear them without needing a subtitle, while the inexperienced watcher will never miss them.

For instance, "oneesama" is used not just to refer to big sisters in certain anime, so would you have to come up with different translations for the different contexts the word is used in?

Yes, and that's what almost all professional translators do anyway. Anime fansubs are the ONLY exception.

Wouldn't that confuse the viewer?

It hasn't in every other professionally subtitled work ever...

And then there's the whole signs issue...

Professionals simply put a subtitle (just like spoken dialog, only sometimes with a different color) down where the subtitles go. Problem solved.

I would've liked the interview to have pressed more on the points that Otaking made in his documentary

The thing is, they were perfectly concise in the documentary and well-backed. There was nothing for us to disagree with, so all we could do was get him to say them again.

chaosof99

I agree with most of the points that Otaking makes, including the honorifics, but I wouldn't say all professionals are perfect examples. For example, listening to Manga Pulse (and yeah, I know you guys hate them) they hate the "Honorifics explained" page many american publicized manga include. I would be glad to have such a page which I could simply ignore. Instead I am currently holding Bleach Volume 26 published by the german division of Tokyopop in my hands which includes footnotes at the bottom of the page/panel to explain those honorifics including distracting asterisks to link to them. After 26 volumes which each includes those explanations, someone would think that the reader already knows what they mean.

I also would like to have more translation notes at the end of the book in german published manga, which unfortunately is very very rare. The only ones I have seen so far are in the first volume of Lone Wolf & Cub (which also strangely enough has the english title on the german edition). I keep the scans of the english volumes of Genshiken although I have the entire series in german just for the translation notes. Some german manga have translation notes or explanations though, but unfortunately they are often created with footnotes, sometimes intruding on the artwork. The german version of Black Lagoon would be a good example of this bad practice.

Sorry, had to get rid of that rant and also sorry for going more into manga translation rather than anime subtitling.

Apreche

I agree with most of the points that Otaking makes, including the honorifics, but I wouldn't say all professionals are perfect examples.

Well, that is part of the problem, isn't it. Professionals see these fansubbers, and see that their stuff is popular, so they stop being professional and start being stupid. Companies like Dark Horse, Vertical, and Viz (Signature) are still doing awesome manga translations. Others are doing some of the stupid things that fansubbers do, and it's not good.

chaosof99

Indeed Scott. It was simply meant to counter Ryms "professionals do..." approach, which sadly doesn't always correlate with actual practices in the industry.

I think a few good rules for translators would be:
1. Follow the school of dynamic equivalence.
2. Minimize obscuring the artwork or avoid it if possible.
3. Keep the readers focus on the story, not on the translation.
4. Be consistent.

Rym

It was simply meant to counter Ryms "professionals do..." approach, which sadly doesn't always correlate with actual practices in the industry.

It does for the worldwide non-anime non-manga industry.

chaosof99

I just remembered a good example of how good translations avoid japanese honorifics. In volume 5 of Yotsuba&!, Mr. Koiwai introduces Yanda to Yotsuba:

Bad version: This is Yanda. He is my kohai*.
Good version: This is Yanda. You could say he is something like my student.

The good version appears in the german edition.


* A kohai is a lower ranked person in an organization. And if I made you look, I've proven my point :P

Robert

honorifics apart from -san, -chan, -tan or that are difficult because they're used in so many different contexts.

You just leave them out. The experienced listener will learn what they mean and hear them without needing a subtitle, while the inexperienced watcher will never miss them..

The professional translations of certain honorifics in anime are just unwieldy though. I find chaosof99's example like this for certain. And what about scenes where the use of honorifics are crucial to understanding the scene, such as Anthy's words to Saionji after he loses the duel in the first episode of Utena?

And then there's the whole signs issue...

Professionals simply put a subtitle (just like spoken dialog, only sometimes with a different color) down where the subtitles go. Problem solved.

And if there are multiple signs or large amounts of writing onscreen? Wouldn't that be cramped as well?

I suppose the main issue I have with the docurant is that fansub groups probably haven't heard of these dudes that are cited there, and probably haven't learned anything other than the japanese language. Plus, professional DVD subtitles are mostly softsubs, limited by the DVD player, while anime fansubs are hardsubs, so the fansub groups can do what they want, hence the uniform, readable look of professional subs. And professional translators aren't immmune to problems... There's subtitles following the dub script for instance (like my Golgo 13 DVD, which I noticed during the opening when subtitles starting popping up during the dialogue-free opening, and discovered that the dubbers added dialogue to that scene.), or hamfisted translations (translating "yuri" as "girl on girl" in Best Student Council), or obnoxious English overlays to translate Japanese text (Nadesico). This "Otaking" isn't necessarily wrong about everything, but I don't agree with him on everything.