Fansubs, legality and morality, etc.

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Since people appear to want to discuss this topic, here, have a topic.

Posted By: AprecheHowever, you spoke about people having clean consciences. Conscience is all about morals, not legality.

Yes, I was pointing out that it was bullshit. You're only lying to yourself if you claim that downloading torrents via AnimeSuki (muscle memory wants to write 'Sucki', gah) is better in any way.

Posted By: AprecheAlso, Animesuki has handy links to ANN Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Animenfo, etc. This makes it easy to check out what a show is before you download it.

These are useless. You shouldn't be discovering new anime by browsing through lists of torrent. Also, you have to go to a separate page to get to those links.

Have fun discussing.

Sail

Also, you have to go to a separate page to get to those links.

Perhaps you need to get more exercise if you find clicking to be incredibly taxing on your body.

This topic seems to be more about your dislike of AnimeSuki than anything that actually matters.

Apreche

Yes, I was pointing out that it was bullshit. You're only lying to yourself if you claim that downloading torrents via AnimeSuki (muscle memory wants to write 'Sucki', gah) is better in any way.

Here's the situation. You have a work of art. However, that work of art is produced and distributed in such a way that is is only available to a small portion of the population of the world. Forget about fansubs, think about abandon ware. It's the same situation. You can have a piece of software that is only available to a very small part of the population, and it is in danger of being lost for all time. Being people who appreciate art, and would like to avoid another library of Alexandria, we think that works of art should be accessible to the people of the world, and should not be lost.

Thus, we feel justified in fansubbing anime. Why should these great works of art only be available to the Japanese people? Why should only people with old DOS computers and CD-ROMS be able to play old DOS games? Even though it is technically illegal, many people feel it is not only acceptable to save works of art from extinction and make them accessible to the world, but we think that doing so is praiseworthy.

However, when a work is already accessible and available, take for example the putting of X-Com on Steam, the justification for breaking the law evaporates. No longer are you saving a work of art. The work of art doesn't need saving because a company took care of it. Thus, many fansubbers, and people in the fansub community, only want unlicensed fansubs. Despite the equal illegality of all fansubs, it is much easier to have a moral justification for distribution of unlicensed ones, especially if the shows are older, and are not likely to be licensed ever.

These are useless. You shouldn't be discovering new anime by browsing through lists of torrent. Also, you have to go to a separate page to get to those links.

Why can't I discover new anime by browsing torrents? One major justification for fansubbing new shows is so that people can try before they buy. Anime companies can also look at the torrents to figure out which new shows are more popular, and are worth licensing. The reason people fansub these new shows is to help people discover them. The list of torrents is the perfect place to discover them. Also, those links are on a separate page, but that is just a minor inconvenience. I would like it if they moved them, though.

gomidog

Well, I could say that you could do a little bit more research before clogging up the network with all your Bit Torrenting of yaoi and moe shows that you will hate anyway. You could...um...maybe ask me for recommendations, because I read the Japanese websites, or check out the series on Youtube. I think your way of doing it is very inefficient and silly.

Conan-San

Well, if you'll excuse me, I'll go buy Keororo Gunsou, Gurren Lagann and Mermaid Melody from ADV-OH WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE!

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Perhaps you need to get more exercise if you find clicking to be incredibly taxing on your body.

*pat pat* I never said anything about it being taxing to click on a link. Don't be stupid, you know just as well as anyone that it takes time.

This topic seems to be more about your dislike of AnimeSuki than anything that actually matters.

No, this is just a topic to get this discussion out of the new Anime Season thread, since it doesn't belong there. This discussion started because people started whining that AnimeSuki was better when it was just proven that it is inferior in serving fansub torrents for unlicensed anime.

Thus, many fansubbers, and people in the fansub community, only want unlicensed fansubs. Despite the equal illegality of all fansubs, it is much easier to have a moral justification for distribution of unlicensed ones, especially if the shows are older, and are not likely to be licensed ever.

Sadly the world ends at the borders of the United States of America and Japan according to all fansubbing groups that adhere to this 'moral code'. How morally correct is it to say, "Hey world, since it's kinda hard for everyone outside of Japan to get this stuff, we'll translate and give it to you for free." and then say "Oh, hey, it's licensed in our country, fuck you rest of the world, I gots my anime." You already complain about crazy prices for DVDs, imagine the import costs, not to mention, the bloody DVD regions. Even if a show is licensed in the states, that still makes it unavailable to the majority of the rest of the world.

Well, I could say that you could do a little bit more research before clogging up the network with all your Bit Torrenting of yaoi and moe shows that you will hate anyway. You could...um...maybe ask me for recommendations, because I read the Japanese websites, or check out the series on Youtube. I think your way of doing it is very inefficient and silly.

o:??? Comment to whom? Other than generally.

Why can't I discover new anime by browsing torrents? One major justification for fansubbing new shows is so that people can try before they buy. Anime companies can also look at the torrents to figure out which new shows are more popular, and are worth licensing. The reason people fansub these new shows is to help people discover them. The list of torrents is the perfect place to discover them. Also, those links are on a separate page, but that is just a minor inconvenience. I would like it if they moved them, though.

You can, I said you shouldn't. There are sites that allow you to discover anime much better. You can search by producers, writers, character designers, whatever you want, and the anime doesn't even have to be subbed yet! You can discover anime you might like much easier by doing it that way than to browse through a list of anime names that only have the fact that they're fansubbed in common. Again, you can if you like discover your anime through released torrents, but it's much easier and faster to just use something like ANN.

MrRoboto

Sadly the world ends at the borders of the United States of America and Japan according to all fansubbing groups that adhere to this 'moral code'. How morally correct is it to say, "Hey world, since it's kinda hard for everyone outside of Japan to get this stuff, we'll translate and give it to you for free." and then say "Oh, hey, it's licensed in our country, fuck you rest of the world, I gots my anime." You already complain about crazy prices for DVDs, imagine the import costs, not to mention, the bloody DVD regions. Even if a show is licensed in the states, that still makes it unavailable to the majority of the rest of the world.

Don't really think that happens, Spanish subbers keep at it, until its licensed in their country if they do, some don't care and keep on subbing. YOU should start thinking outside US borders, AnimeSuki and most fansubbers you talk about reside or sub for an American(as in US/Canada) public, thus when the show is licensed they stop. I bet, Korean, Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, Hebrew, etc. Fansubbers keep at it.

George Patches

Well, I could say that you could do a little bit more research before clogging up the network with all your Bit Torrenting of yaoi and moe shows that you will hate anyway. You could...um...maybe ask me for recommendations, because I read the Japanese websites, or check out the series on Youtube. I think your way of doing it is very inefficient and silly.

I don't know; my friends and I have an immensely good time watching all those bad shows.

Personally, I like the way the anime industry is moving now with actually being able to watch and/or buy new shows with legit subtitles. I bought all of Tower of Druaga Season 1from Gonzo (and anxiously await season two, because that show is awesome) and I'm going to buy all of Shikabane Hime from Funimation (and bitch endlessly to their customer service line about the DRM). I'm doing this because this is what I want: cheap, quickly available, subtitled anime. I know there's a market for dubbed anime, but I'm not it.

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Don't really think that happens, Spanish subbers keep at it, until its licensed in their country if they do, some don't care and keep on subbing. YOU should start thinking outside US borders, AnimeSuki and most fansubbers you talk about reside or sub for an American(as in US/Canada) public, thus when the show is licensed they stop. I bet, Korean, Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, Hebrew, etc. Fansubbers keep at it.

Sorry mate, I've already looked, there was one Dutch fansubbing group. They put out the clean ED for Suzumiya Haruhi, nothing since. And rarely a DVD-rip has Dutch subtitles with it, so I'm forced to look for fansub groups that subtitle in English. Sadly there's a bunch of fansub groups who have blinders even when half of their team is European, they still drop a show when it gets licensed. What about the United Kingdom? Australia? They speak English and pretty much 90% of the European anime fandom watches English subtitles. Don't worry about me though, I avoid those shitty blinded fansubbers as much as possible.

Apreche

Don't think in terms of countries, think in terms of languages. When a show is licensed in the US, that means it is now accessible and available to the English speaking world. Thus, the English language fansubbers stop doing their thing. If you're an English speaker in Europe or other far away lands, it still might be expensive for you to access these shows, but not impossible. There's a big difference between a situation where you have no legal options, and a situation in which you have a legal option, no matter how expensive or difficult. As others have said, even when a show is licensed in the US, fansubbers who translate to other languages like French, Spanish, German, Italian, Hebrew, Russian, etc. will continue their work.

A moral code has to have a foundation of principled logic. You seem to be arguing for a moral code based on your own personal convenience. That's not really going to fly.

Dr. Timo

Here's the situation. You have a work of art. However, that work of art is produced and distributed in such a way that is is only available to a small portion of the population of the world. Forget about fansubs, think about abandon ware. It's the same situation. You can have a piece of software that is only available to a very small part of the population, and it is in danger of being lost for all time. Being people who appreciate art, and would like to avoid another library of Alexandria, we think that works of art should be accessible to the people of the world, and should not be lost.

Sorry Scott, but abandon ware != anime fansubs in any way or form. What you get worked up about are instances where the owners of copyright are hard or impossible to track down. This can be due to companies going out of business, mergers, prolific reselling of rights etc. In these cases no-one in their right mind (at least no-one with a lawyer present) will reproduce or re-release these works due to the threat of legal actions should a rights owner suddenly appear.

With anime that is simply unreleased in America, this is not the situation. You can feel secure, since you know for a fact that no-one in the States has a license and that the Japanese cannot sue you. You can not, however, feel morally justified. You are stealing.

Rym

What about the United Kingdom? Australia? ... I avoid those shitty blinded fansubbers as much as possible.

Most of the Internet resides in the United States. The servers, pipes, bandwidth, and infrastructure is by a substantial majority on American soil, and subject to American law. Americans also constitute the majority of the non-Japanese market, and the vast, vast majority of the English-speaking market.

For Americans, Animesuki is the best place to be, and fansubbing should stop when US licensing occurs. If this hurts non-American fans, then non-American fans need to take up the slack.

Jay

Being people who appreciate art, and would like to avoid another library of Alexandria, we think that works of art should be accessible to the people of the world, and should not be lost.

What if the creator of the media explicitly does not want others to be able to view the media without there permission? If an artist creates a work of art and is unwilling to distribute it to the world does the world immediately have the moral justification to take that content by force? I would argue that if the artist does not want you to see the content then you have no moral right to the content.

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Don't think in terms of countries, think in terms of languages. When a show is licensed in the US, that means it is now accessible and available to the English speaking world. Thus, the English language fansubbers stop doing their thing. If you're an English speaker in Europe or other far away lands, it still might be expensive for you to access these shows, but not impossible. There's a big difference between a situation where you have no legal options, and a situation in which you have a legal option, no matter how expensive or difficult. As others have said, even when a show is licensed in the US, fansubbers who translate to other languages like French, Spanish, German, Italian, Hebrew, Russian, etc. will continue their work.

A moral code has to have a foundation of principled logic. You seem to be arguing for a moral code based on your own personal convenience. That's not really going to fly.

You can import the show from Japan, get a region-free or region 2 DVD player, pay someone to translate the script for you and then read along when watching it. No matter how expensive or difficult that might be, you have a legal option. I already said this, but let me say it again. Sure, a show might (after much waiting since the news of the license) be out with English subtitles, or in an English dub, but you already complain about crazy DVD prizes, now add to that the import costs, remember I live in the Netherlands, we pay taxes, and don't forget the dvd region. I might as well study Japanese and just import the shows from Japan.

For Americans, Animesuki is the best place to be, and fansubbing should stop when US licensing occurs. If this hurts non-American fans, then non-American fans need to take up the slack.

They're helping the American fansubbers.

Dr. Timo

There's a big difference between a situation where you have no legal options, and a situation in which you have a legal option, no matter how expensive or difficult.

A moral code has to have a foundation of principled logic. You seem to be arguing for a moral code based on your own personal convenience. That's not really going to fly.

So you could buy the japanese anime from japan and then hire your own personal translator to translate it to you as you watch it.

Edit: Dang, too slow with the Scott bashing.

Rym

If an artist creates a work of art and is unwilling to distribute it to the world does the world immediately have the moral justification to take that content by force?

We've had this argument. If the artist never releases a work at all, then he's welcome to restrict it as he pleases until his death. But if he does release it, and then decides that he suddenly wants to stop further people from seeing it, people have a fairly strong moral argument to copy (though not steal) the work.

Rym

They're helping the American fansubbers.

That's their choice, then, so they have no right to complain.

Jay

If an artist creates a work of art and is unwilling to distribute it to the world does the world immediately have the moral justification to take that content by force?

We've had this argument. If the artist never releases a work at all, then he's welcome to restrict it as he pleases until his death. But if he does release it, and then decides that he suddenly wants to stop further people from seeing it, people have a fairly strong moral argument to copy (though not steal) the work.

I want to continue talking this point but I don’t want to parrot something that has been discussed already while adding nothing new. Where was this discussed before?

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Edit: Dang, too slow with the Scott bashing.

Don't worry, it just adds to the point when two separate people independently came up with the same point at pretty much the same time, imho. Just look at the telephone, great invention, long distance communication, two guys separately came up with it at pretty much the same time.

That's their choice, then, so they have no right to complain.

And that's exactly why there are awesome fansubbers and ShitsenSubs & coannoying fansubbers. Most European fansubbers I know moved from those fansub groups to others that did not care about US licenses and laws. You can compare them to the Pirate Bay.

Also Rym, why do you too double post? It has become a plague by now.

Apreche

It is true that there is a difference between not knowing who the copyright holder is, and a known copyright holder simply not making the work available to the entire world. However, I think in both instances it is justifiable to make the work available.

If a work exists, but the copyright holder is unknown, as in the case of abandonware, the case is pretty simple. Nobody knows the legal status of the copyright, so no person or company is in a position to make the work legally available. In the interest of making it available despite broken laws, we do some abandoneware.

The case for a foreign copyright holder is a little different. Right now, in the world, we have an almost complete disintegration of communications boundaries. Where less than a century ago you would have to pay very high postage or telephone fees to communicate with people around the world, even China is a Skype away. The one major obstacle preventing free worldwide communication is the language barrier. I mean, look at these forums. They are technolgically open to the entire world, but only those who know English can actually make any use of it. Even Google is not completely translated to every language in the world, and they are always working to fix that.

Look at history and you will see the literate ruling the illiterate. The church speaking Latin or Hebrew to keep the congregation out of the loop. Lawyers speaking in legalese making even the law inaccessible. Science making itself largely inaccessible to those who have not had a great education. Now we have achieved the ability to instantly copy and transfer any and all information to any place on earth almost instantly. However, much of the information that is out there is still inaccessible to the vast majority of people.

I maintain that any effort to make any information accessible to more people is a noble endeavor, regardless of illegality. Some exceptions for privacy and security apply, of course. The only reason to stop when things are licensed is because legal means are preferable to illegal means, and duplicated efforts are wasted efforts.

Dr. Timo

and duplicated efforts are wasted efforts.

And therein lies one of the fundamental real problems that fansubs generate: removing incentive for companies to license anime.

Now before you go off, I know there is an argument to be made that fansubs can function as a sort of "commercial" or as usable indicators of popularity. Those are logically sound (and sometimes even demonstrably true) arguments. However, anything but a private company (owned by smart people) will have trouble explaining this to their stock holders.

Now, if your argument is that those companies don't deserve to make money because they're stupid, then I may even agree with you. Nonetheless, I won't agree with you on the morality of fansubs. The fact that Japanese anime companies don't get US pricing, that they are greedy or that the US distributors are stupid still doesn't give the slightest moral justification to your "noble" cause.

Apreche

And therein lies one of the fundamental real problems that fansubs generate: removing incentive for companies to license anime.

Fansubs do not remove incentive to license anime. Imagine if we lived in a world with no fansubs. Do you think the anime companies would be doing any better? The answer is no. If fansubs did not exist, then the people who currently watch fansubs simply would not watch anime. Even if people still watched anime only by legal means, DVD sales still would not increase because the audience is largely kids with no disposable income. They would only watch anime on television, free streaming, Netflix, etc. which would not result in any increased revenue for anime importing companies. With or without fansubs, there is little incentive to license anime either way.

Anime has only succeeded in the US when it is put on TV. The first generation of anime fans were watching Star Blazers on TV. The next generation watched DBZ and Sailor Moon, on TV. The next generation watched Naruto, on TV. Fansubs have no impact whatsoever on the success or failure of the anime licensing business. The only thing that matters is having that after-school block of anime programming on a prominent channel. Because anime companies have failed to make this happen in recent years is the only reason they have failed. Fansubs have nothing to do with it. If anything, fansubs are the only thing keeping people interested in anime at all.

However, anything but a private company (owned by smart people) will have trouble explaining this to their stock holders.

FYI, just about every anime company is private. The ones that aren't ar esmall parts of bigger companies, like Bandai.

Nonetheless, I won't agree with you on the morality of fansubs. The fact that Japanese anime companies don't get US pricing, that they are greedy or that the US distributors are stupid still doesn't give the slightest moral justification to your "noble" cause.

It doesn't matter what the reason is for the artwork not being imported. It could be that the creators of the work hate other countries. It could be that the publisher demands a jillion dollars for the license. It could be that there is absolutely no way to make money from the license with any business model. The net result in any circumstance is the same, and that is that a work of art is inaccessible to a majority of the human population. Faced with no reasonable legal means of making any piece of artwork accessible to people, regardless of the reasons for that inaccessibility, it is morally acceptable to employ an illegal means.

Remember what the US constitution says. It grants congress the power to make laws that To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. The main goal of intellectual property law is to promote the progress of science and useful arts. The limited monopolies are only granted as incentive so that the arts will progressed. However, we have a situation where these limited monopolies are actually promoting a decline in the useful arts, and not promoting progress. We have a situation where no incentive is needed, and people are progressing the arts without incentive of monopoly. It is obvious that we should always act in favor of progressing art and science, especially if it means violating laws which are acting against their own stated purpose.

Dr. Timo

Fansubs do not remove incentive to license anime...
[snip]
... If anything, fansubs are the only thing keeping people interested in anime at all.

Like I said, I am familiar with these arguments and concede that they are true. Not all people do, however, and therein lies the real problem.

It doesn't matter what the reason is for the artwork not being imported. It could be that the creators of the work hate other countries. It could be that the publisher demands a jillion dollars for the license. It could be that there is absolutely no way to make money from the license with any business model. The net result in any circumstance is the same, and that is that a work of art is inaccessible to a majority of the human population. Faced with no reasonable legal means of making any piece of artwork accessible to people, regardless of the reasons for that inaccessibility, it is morally acceptable to employ an illegal means.

In most cases (and I can't actually think of any cases where it's not), the lack of licensing is a monetary issue. Whether this is a company not being willing to take a smaller profit margin, or a person not importing and paying for a translator, is moot. According to your own words, this is not a reasonable excuse to justify the morality of fansubbing.

There's a big difference between a situation where you have no legal options, and a situation in which you have a legal option, no matter how expensive or difficult.

A moral code has to have a foundation of principled logic. You seem to be arguing for a moral code based on your own personal convenience. That's not really going to fly.

Either you alter your statements, qualify what "no matter how expensive or difficult" really means to you, or be called a hypocrite.

BontaKun

ok so i came into this a little late (as with the rest of the posts it apears) and i really didnt feel like reading through all the arguments. Basically what it boils down to is do you want anime to thrive or not because heres some facts

1) if you download fansubed anime its stealing
wether or not you can get it in the USA is irrelavent (sp?) when you download it for free the people and sponsours who made it dont get paid.

2) when the people who are sponsoring the people who are making it dont get paid they stop sponsouring the show
if you look at the non-anime yet still awesome show jericho the reason it got canceled was because everyone was watching it on demand so the comercials werent getting seen so the companies paying for the comercial time said if were not making any money then were not giving you any sans end of show

now all we are left with is a moral dilema do i download this show and try to pay for it later, do i download the show and screw it if it comes out later because i got it for free, or do i just wait till i have a chance to pay for it and risk not getting it at all

now kiddies if you want some moral justification i watch fansubbed anime all the time on account of it being so friggin expencive and me being so poor. i got to this sweet website that has over 650 diffrent series on there and some of them are even dubbed. but just make sure that if your gonna download the stuff make sure you make up for it in another way like buying merch or the dvds when they come out or even tell your friends about it so they can buy it. If you dont sink money into this type of media it goes away

MrRoboto

if you look at the non-anime yet still awesome show jericho the reason it got canceled was because everyone was watching it on demand so the comercials werent getting seen so the companies paying for the comercial time said if were not making any money then were not giving you any sans end of show

Is that a FACT or something you wish to believe?

Σπεκωσποκ

1) if you download fansubed anime its stealing
wether or not you can get it in the USA is irrelavent (sp?) when you download it for free the people and sponsours who made it dont get paid.

Andrew

1) if you download fansubed anime its stealing
wether or not you can get it in the USA is irrelavent (sp?) when you download it for free the people and sponsours who made it dont get paid.

Producing copies of goods essentially devalues the product.

Σπεκωσποκ

Producing copies of goods essentially devalues the product.

But, and here's the thing, it is not taking anything (aka stealing) except a copy (the total amount of the product remains the same). A product can be devalued by a number of things: obsolescence, a failing market, age, competition, etc., but none of those things are considered stealing. If Company A drops the price of product X, or puts out a product X v2, and Company B's now obsolete product X fails as a result, it is not considered stealing. True, none of those things get you anything without actually buying the product, but my point is you can't call merely devaluing a product theft.

tygerbox

If anything, fansubs are the only thing keeping people interested in anime at all.

I know that this is true for me, but in a somewhat different way. The short answer is that US anime companies are completely inept at marketing their products and finding decent reviews is nigh-well impossible. The tl;dr version:

I got back into anime as an adult (I would qualify as a forum fogey). Since I had a big kid's salary, I could afford to buy DVDs. So predictably I worked through the obvious titles. So far so good. Then I eventually wanted to check out some other stuff and started watching the trailers on the DVDs. But as well all know, those are not proper trailers, they just show you the opening sequence. Not much to go on there. Even though I would hit upon some little modern gems like Kino's Journey, I got tired of getting burned by promising looking titles that ended up being crap. I was shocked how poorly they bungled marketing good modern titles like Kino's Journey or Texhnolyze. So this awful marketing is one aspect of this issue to me.

The other is the inability to get decent US reviews. The ANN reviews are pretty good, but very sporadic. Then there is the matter of Anime On DVD. I'm not looking to make any inflammatory accusations about their editorial integrity (as I have no proof either way) but they seem to use that horrible "we grade on a scale of 1 to 10 but give everything a score of 7-10" business you see at worthless video game sites. Titles are never panned there. Every show seems to get a somewhat favorable review no matter if it happens to be great or yet another generic piece of dreck. The only source of anything approaching "critical" reviews are in Otaku USA (where they will pan things) but most of their current coverage seems aimed more at manga.

What does this have to do with fansubs?

As a consumer, I feel that fansubs are the only reliable way I can figure out what I want to watch and to shell my ducats out for. And I still do shell them out. In the past half of a year I've finished purchasing 4 shows I've already seen on fansubs and I'm going to buy a couple upcoming Funimation bricks when they get released. At this point, I won't buy anything that I haven't seen on fansubs. If fansubs vanished today, I would stop buying anime altogether unless it had the name Miyazaki, Kon, Shinkai, or Abe (and to a lesser degree BONES/Gainax) on it. And that is a small fraction of what gets released here. At this point, fansubs are the only reason I consider buying R1 anime releases at all.

Sure, fansubs may be a bit of a problem, but I think that it is somewhat over exaggerated. I think that they US anime distributors would be better served if they worried about: doing better marketing, marketing to people with money, getting shows on TV where they belong, fixing these horrible release schedules (Funi seems to be getting a clue here and good for them), cracking the fuck down on physical media bootletting (it's right out there in the open!), figuring out a way to get shows over here faster, and devising new online distribution channels.

Apreche

Producing copies of goods essentially devalues the product.

And producing infinite copies infinitely devalues the product.

However, I think there is one thing that people are failing to realize. Let's say I make a digita product. Let's pretend that nobody copies it. However, because it is possible to copy it perfectly and infinitely, it is still infinitely devalued even if those infinite copies are never made.

It's like this. Let's say you go to the arts + crafts fair. You see a cool little picture frame. Let's get hypothetical and pretend that you could duplicate that picture frame with a trivial amount of effort. If you wanted to, you could just make your own in a matter of seconds, you already have more than enough materials, and it would be identical to the one you saw at the craft fair. Even if you never ever actually make that duplicate picture frame, you still won't buy the one at the fair. You take one look at it and say "I can make that trivially. Why would I pay you for it?" Even if the copies are never made, the value is zero because the copies could be made.

Think of it in terms of a futures market. There's only a few pork barrels in the world right now. However, I know that there is a technology that exists which can trivially produce infinite pork barrels at almost no cost. Even if that technology hasn't been activated yet, and there are not yet infinite pork barrels, and even if there never are infinite pork barrels, the futures market for pork barrels collapses. The value of a pork barrel drops to effectively zero.

Simply stopping piracy is not going to help anything. Even without piracy, the mere fact that the technology exists results in the devaluation of digital goods. There's no way you can undo that economic reality. There is no social or technological solution that can undo that truth. Your only hope is to accept it and find a path despite it.

Andrew

But, and here's the thing, it is not taking anything (aka stealing) except a copy (the total amount of the product remains the same). A product can be devalued by a number of things: obsolescence, a failing market, age, competition, etc., but none of those things are considered stealing. If Company A drops the price of product X, or puts out a product X v2, and Company B's now obsolete product X fails as a result, it is not considered stealing. True, none of those things get you anything without actually buying the product, but my point is you can't call merely devaluing a product theft.

Did I say it was theft? Also, if you are going to be so strict about the definitions, piracy is probably not the correct term either (piracy is the robbery of goods through intimidation and threat). What's occurring is probably more akin to counterfeiting.

Furthermore, just because it's not "theft" doesn't morally or legally justify one's actions.

Simply stopping piracy is not going to help anything. Even without piracy, the mere fact that the technology exists results in the devaluation of digital goods. There's no way you can undo that economic reality. There is no social or technological solution that can undo that truth. Your only hope is to accept it and find a path despite it.

Stop viewing digital media as a good. Think of it as a service provided by another person. I pay someone to write a really, really long and complicated number. Sure, I can understand that this number can then be perfectly reproduced, but it had to originate from somewhere.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that piracy laws are perfect, or even anywhere near fair or decent, however we shouldn't give up trying to make a fair and balanced system for both parties.