GeekNights 081117 - X Window System

Apreche

Tonight on GeekNights we discuss the X Windows System. In the news, unhappy people watch more television, and OpenOffice beats Google Docs.

Scott's Thing - Public MP3 Listening Test
Rym's Thing - Perpetual Antiqua

Victor Frost

Wow, early. You guys get home early or something?

Alan

This is what you call dedication and must be a Rym on vacation request.

VinceA

Those Rolex warnings/alerts aren't to stop people from buying the fakes, they're for the women that get the fakes as gifts. Once they realize they've been given a fake they can nag the living hell out of the man that tried to pass off a fake as a real.

Apreche

Those Rolex warnings/alerts aren't to stop people from buying the fakes, they're for the women that get the fakes as gifts. Once they realize they've been given a fake they can nag the living hell out of the man that tried to pass off a fake as a real.

If your woman is the type who cares more about whether or not a watch is "real" or not, it's time to find someone new.

Walker

Those Rolex warnings/alerts aren't to stop people from buying the fakes, they're for the women that get the fakes as gifts. Once they realize they've been given a fake they can nag the living hell out of the man that tried to pass off a fake as a real.

If your woman is the type who cares more about whether or not a watch is "real" or not, it's time to find someone new.

Or she could just be pissed that her man tried to defraud her, instead of being honest about the whole deal.

Apreche

Or she could just be pissed that her mantriedto defraud her, instead of being honest about the whole deal.

Well, if you try to give someone a bootleg watch as a gift, and pretend it's not a bootleg in order to impress them, then you're still a douche who thinks the more expensive watch is better. In pretty much any situation, the person who gives a shit about the brand and whatnot is the fail.

C-o-r-E

Great show.

LOLRym: "HALP! JENTUU IZ BROKE!"
LOLScott: "OHNOES, EMERGE EKSORG~"
:P

Its nice to hear a little history on X and a discussion on what it is. We need to keep promoting Linux and open source as it seems there is still much confusion and misinformation out there. Just today I was talking about my Linux systems in a lab. One of the people working on the opposite side of the table made comments about Linux being old and crappy. He even started to bring up vista before I began to break down his statements by interrogation. The questioning revealed that (of course) he had almost nothing to back up his statements. Sadly I think about 50% of my fellow 1st semester software engineering think similarly to him. Its funny that today Ubuntu is actually less dificult to install and run than any other OS and for the less geeky half of the students, does everything they could ever need.

Coldguy

A word on your discussion about Office Suites:

If all you do is the basic functionality (type a letter, make a slide show, do accounting) yes you do not need an office suite, google docs and notepad++ is all you really need.

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

It all ends up on what you do with the tools that you have.

Apreche

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

No, no you do not need an office suite for that. If you have massive amounts of data, you need a database! If you want to automatically generate reports, you need a database, and maybe a reporting front-end for it. If you want to make a presentation, then yes you need something like powerpoint, but you just take the data from the database reporting and paste it into powerpoint, or other presentation app.

The biggest thing holding back a lot of businesses is that they use spreadsheets instead of real databases. It makes working about a million times less efficient than it could be. However, that efficiency results in people keeping their jobs. I could go into the average medium sized business in the US, import their spreadsheets into MySQL, create a django front-end for the database in a day or so, and then all the people who managed that spreadsheet would be out of a job. They'd hire one data entry specialist and that would be that.

Word Processors are only needed by people who still need to format paper documents.
Spreadsheets are only needed by accountants and people who need to do financial maths.
Presentation apps are needed by people who do presentations.

That's really the only use of an Office Suite. If you are using any of those apps for another purpose, you're using the wrong tool.

Lusankya

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

With exception of the presentation part of that post, every other point you made would be better serviced by a specialized application.

I'll speak from experience for a moment. For instance, take a workforce management application that tracks employee clock in times, idle codes and evaluates their performance and conformance to their predefined schedules. This program stores data in a SQL database, and can export to CSV. In the time it would take to write a VBA module to translate the data into a format that Microsoft Office could understand and format accordingly, we were able to write a series of Python scripts that did the same thing more efficiently, and without the need for an office suite to be installed on the user's computer.

The real advantage of living in a world of user-modifiable technology is that you can invent better tools when the existing ones don't cut it.

EDIT: Damnit Scott, you beat me to it!

Rym

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

No, you need something like Business Objects or Crystal Reports coupled with some sort of data management system. Using an office suite for that is massively limiting and inefficient.

George Patches

Word Processors are only needed by people who still need to format paper documents.
Spreadsheets are only needed by accountants and people who need to do financial maths.
Presentation apps are needed by people who do presentations.

That's really the only use of an Office Suite. If you are using any of those apps for another purpose, you're using the wrong tool.

And since I don't see paper, double-entry accounting, or digital slide shows going out of fashion any time soon, a lot of people need an office suite.

I still can't believe the number of people that email spread sheets around. I mean even just Access is a lot better for that.

Apreche

And since I don't see paper, double-entry accounting, or digital slide shows going out of fashion any time soon, a lot of people need an office suite.

I still can't believe the number of people that email spread sheets around. I mean even just Access is a lot better for that.

You can do double-entry accounting on the computer. Also, yes, even Microsoft Access is better than Excel for database purposes.

Coldguy

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

No, you need something like Business Objects or Crystal Reports coupled with some sort of data management system. Using an office suite for that is massively limiting and inefficient.

I would LOVE not to use an office suite, however I use what I have. Would I rather do a database for this massive project and be able to get it on the web, yes. Do I know how? Not yet, if anyone can point me into a good reference for that I greatly be appreciated.

Andrew

If however you are managing massive amounts of data, having it transform into a variety of automatically generated reports, actually integrate the data real time to a presentation and compile reports based by the outcomes of those presentations. Yes you need an office suite.

No, you need something like Business Objects or Crystal Reports coupled with some sort of data management system. Using an office suite for that is massively limiting and inefficient.

Unless you integrate those capabilities into an office suite like Microsoft Office. Let's face it, most people who use computers in a office, only know how to use Word/Excel/Powerpoint. If you can limit the learning curve of new software by adding those capabilities into a familiar UI and structure, it will be easier for the users.

Rym

Unless you integrate those capabilities into an office suite like Microsoft Office.

But why bother? Business Objects and its ilk can automate all of those tasks fairly trivially and with far more power and flexibility. If you're editing or creating mass content or aggregating data on a regular basis at the point-of-entry an office suite presents, you're attacking the root problem at entirely the wrong level.

Let's face it, most people who use computers in a office, only know how to use Word/Excel/Powerpoint.

At least where I work now, there is not a single person that weakly skilled. Every single employee is a highly trained professional, and everyone is extremely computer proficient even where their jobs have nothing to do with technology.

If you hire people who can't be trained in basic software, or you refuse to hire the right people to solve the right problems the right way, then yes, an office suite is fine. But one skilled data manipulator with the right software replaces dozens of MS Office drones and produces far better quality, automation, and reliability.

If you can limit the learning curve of new software by adding those capabilities into a familiar UI and structure, it will be easier for the users.

What learning curve? Instead of allowing a dozen paeons to generate reports and presentations, why not just hire one database/reporting/presenting professional to handle those tasks for everyone?

Apreche

Unless you integrate those capabilities into an office suite like Microsoft Office. Let's face it, most people who use computers in a office, only know how to use Word/Excel/Powerpoint. If you can limit the learning curve of new software by adding those capabilities into a familiar UI and structure, it will be easier for the users.

You make a web interface. Everyone knows how to use web sites.

Lusankya

Instead of allowing a dozen paeons to generate reports and presentations, why not just hire one database/reporting/presenting professional to handle those tasks foreveryone?

Rym, the last thing our depressed economy needs is efficiency. Imagine all the lost jobs! ^_^

Apreche

Rym, the last thing our depressed economy needs is efficiency. Imagine all the lost jobs! ^_^

It is true that many jobs would be lost with increased efficiency. However, there would also be greater production. Greater production means more GDP. We need to create more wealth in order to pay off the debt we have incurred. Having lots and lots of people work doesn't generate lots of net wealth. While it increases production, the cost of labor offsets that. Increased efficiency creates lots of extra wealth without lots of extra cost. That's kind of what we need to do in order to pay off these debts.

It's not like it's going to happen anyway, so it's really not worth talking about.

Bowl Of Rice

Rym, the last thing our depressed economy needs is efficiency. Imagine all the lost jobs! ^_^

The people it will hurt most are the uncaring, unskilled, and non-ambitious. When manufactures turned to robots, lots lost their jobs. However, it employed other people to repair and program the robots. Business is going to get more efficient if they want to survive.

chaosof99

If you guys want to watch live sports here are two sites:
myp2p.eu
adthe.net

Apreche

If you guys want to watch live sports here are two sites:
myp2p.eu
adthe.net

The first site requires installation of software. I don't trust that for shit. Hello viruses! The second site just doesn't work.

chaosof99

adthe works for me but sometimes it just spazzes out. myp2p also has browser videos of Justin.TV and others. Visit the forums for that though. At least SOPCast which is probably the most common software for the videos I watch (mostly NHL broadcasts) is pretty secure, but I guess it's your choice what you install.

Apreche

adthe works for me but sometimes it just spazzes out. myp2p also has browser videos of Justin.TV and others. Visit the forums for that though. At least SOPCast which is probably the most common software for the videos I watch (mostly NHL broadcasts) is pretty secure, but I guess it's your choice what you install.

Don't trust anything. Someone is streaming those live sports, and it costs a lot of money. I doubt they are doing it because they are rich and generous. They are paying for it with spyware.

Don't trust any of this shady fucking shit, people. This is why I don't need to have an anti-virus, and everyone else does. If it isn't open source, and it doesn't come from a trustworthy company like Microsoft, Google, Valve, Adobe, then don't trust it for shit.

Rym

Don't trust anything.

Quoted for truth. You all need to realize that once you run even a single untrusted executable with administrative permission on a Windows PC, you are possibly permanently compromised with no recourse outside of a full reinstallation. Most modern malware will have no obvious or deleterious effects on your PC at all, yet will silently have added it to some massive spammer's botnet while dutifully collecting whatever personal information it can glean.

Seriously, installing anything from either of the two sites mentioned above is tantamount to accepting candy into your open mouth blindfolded from someone wearing a mask and carrying a knife and bottle of poison in a dark back alley.

Visit the forums for that though. At least SOPCast which is probably the most common software for the videos I watch (mostly NHL broadcasts) is pretty secure,

What do you base this statement on? How do you know it's secure? What evidence do you have? Have you done independent egress analysis?

Remember kids: most spyware can't be detected (by non-professionals) and can't be removed (by anyone). Don't download this shit. Ever.

Apreche

In other words, use a whitelist not a blacklist. If you don't know for 100% certain that something is trustworthy, then assume that it's evil and full of viruses. Sure, there might be some good programs you don't install, but if you are smart, you will also install zero bad programs.

If you use a blacklist, which means you install anything, unless you know for a fact that it is evil, then you're going to end up installing something bad at some point. As Rym said, just one is enough to screw the entire pooch.

Don't be fooled either. You go to a website for program X and it says 100% spyware free. Um, does that really mean anything? Of course the website with the software is going to say it's safe. You have to go somewhere trustworthy, which is very few places.

Rym

It just bothers me when I see people asserting that something is safe when they clearly have no capacity to make such a determination.

chaosof99

Blah, SOPCast is only my fallback option if I can't get atdhe working or find a justin.tv link. You can usually watch any game without any installing any software.
Anyways, why did I thought SOPCast was secure? My spyware checker showed nothing and I haven't read anything about spyware on the myp2p forums which has a few about 90,000 members and a lot of them use the program on a regular basis. Even the only reply in the thread Scott linked to says that he could not find spyware installed originating from SOPCast.

Anyways, you don't need to install SOPCast to watch games online.

Starfox

You have to go somewhere trustworthy, which is very few places.

What are the limits for what you call trustworthy? Big-time companies? Sourceforge? ogre.exe?

Rym

What are the limits for what you call trustworthy? Big-time companies? Sourceforge? ogre.exe?

It's a matter of common sense. If you have the technical knowledge, you can safely download from more sources by being aware of the dangers and warning signs. If you don't have this expertise, then you must limit your downloading activities more. If you have ANY doubt at all, don't download something.

More specifically, any executable that isn't from a well known source and isn't widely used by technical, computer proficient people should be avoided. Do what the computer nerds do: they're the only ones who know. Along those lines, you really don't need much software in the first place: almost anyone who tries to get you to download a closed-source executable is trying to scam you. In fact, I'd argue that there are more scams than legitimate sources on the Internet.

Anyways, why did I thought SOPCast was secure? My spyware checker showed nothing

Spyware checkers don't work. They find the lowest-hanging fruit, and many themselves are scams.

I haven't read anything about spyware on the myp2p forums

And how would those people know? Do any of them sound like computer professionals? Are you sure they're not astroturfers?

has a few about 90,000 members

There are plausible estimates that more than half of the home computers in use by Americans today are compromised in some fashion. Millions of people use compromised computers for years without ever knowing. Don't trust the advice of anyone but a computer professional.

Remember: what they're doing there is probably illegal in most places. Do you honestly trust that everyone involved is taking these risks just for fun? How do you think they make money? Does anyone make money from the project? How?

I can't say specifically whether that specific program is bad or not, but I can say this: as a computer professional, I took one look at it and determined that what it claimed to provide was in no way worth the clear risk to my computer. I would never consider executing something like that. You're free to do so if you like, but consider that I won't and why I won't. I never have problems with my Windows installations, and I never have to worry about my security. The moment you run a single untrusted executable, your computer is basically persona non grata to someone like me, and my first piece of advice in regard to any problem you'd have afterward would be to reinstall.

I don't have computer problems because I still consider the Internet to be the wild west. I travel armed, and I don't trust strangers. I ignore the snake oil salesmen in the streets, I lock my doors, and I stay out of bad neighborhoods. If it looks shady, I pass on it. If it looks too good to be true, I pass on it. If I can't verify what it does, I pass on it.