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GeekNights 081209 - Agricola
Tonight on GeekNights we review the hot new board game Agricola. In the news, Scott just beat A Link to the Past again, and The Giana Sisters are coming to the DS.
Scott's Thing - Metal Heart
Rym's Thing - L4D Speed Run
Scott's Thing - Metal Heart
Rym's Thing - L4D Speed Run
Comments
I attended a gaming convention in November. I was all excited to try out Agricola - the new number one rated game on BGG. Obtaining a number one rating is an amazing feat.
Prior to signing up for the game, I figured I would check out a video review. After seeing the review, I had no interest in playing.
I've got some schizophrenia now when it comes to gaming. I've transitioned largely into miniatures and wargaming. I still play some boardgames, but the thought of playing a game that focuses on carrots and bread doesn't appeal to me anymore. I like games that are more social - like Descent or the new Battlestar Galactica game. For the pure strategy games, I'm finding that traditional wargames have a lot to offer. As a history buff, I can get the same level (if not more) of strategy, and feel much more connected to the theme.
The one real flaw of wargames is the length of time required to play them. The good news is that companies have begun to recognize this problem. There are some very good games coming out that are a hybrid of eurogames and wargames. Conflict of Heroes is the perfect example. Some traditional wargames are coming out with shorter scenarios. (Standard Combat Series being a good example.)
The only problem I still have with wargames is due to the niche market. Because they sell fewer copies, you get less for your money. Combat Commander: Europe is $80. That gets you some paper maps, paper track sheets, cards and chits. If it were a Eurogame, it would retail for about $35. Conflict of Heroes has bucked this trend by mounting the maps on sturdy boards. For that I am eternally grateful.
Other people, like yourself, seem to care more about the theme of the game. You like the war games because of the history you get from them in addition to the game itself. It's well and good to enjoy a bit of history, but to ignore a game because of theme alone is a little bit shortsighted. Imagine if one of your favorite war games was changed to have a Gundam theme. In all other ways the game was identical, but instead of miniatures of real soldiers, it was miniatures of fictional robots. If you were to discount this game based on the theme, you would be denying yourself what would be your favourite game. Also, there's more to history than minutiae of war and battles. You can learn a lot of history from non-war games.
You mention you also like social games like Descent, but that game is mechanically no different from Hero Quest or Mutant Chronicles. You're basically just doing a WoW raid on a board. I find the best social games are ones that involve creative elements, and less competition, like Apples2Apples or Nanofictionary. Also, games that allow free-form bargaining and negotiation like Diplomacy or Traders of Genoa are way better social games than Descent. Heck, if you really want social, you can't beat a tabletop RPG.
My main problem with war games is that they are incredibly fiddly. That is to say there are lots and lots of small pieces. Even a game like BattleLore takes not very long to play. However, it takes a very long time to setup and tear down. Also, much of the time playing is spent manipulating and calculating. Twilight Struggle had the same problem. The vast majority of these games would be much better off as video game that took care of all the calculations and manipulations for you. If I spend more time physically moving pieces around and calculating results of battle than I spend making actual meaningful decisions, that is not good.
Really, I'm just round-aboutly saying that it's very narrow-minded to discount a game because it's got pictures of farmers on the box instead of pictures of guys with guns.
This is the problem when you try to quantify as a universal rule something that is subjective. My attitude is narrow-minded for you. I can make a better argument that you are narrow minded. I stated that I am attracted to games that teach me something about history. You discount this aspect entirely, and are emphatic that only mechanics should be valued in choosing a game. So really, you've demonstrated that you are more narrow-minded than I am.
I guess the difference between us is that I understand that what you value in a game might not be what I value. That doesn't make either approach worse than the other. It's the beauty of the hobby. We have tons of games to scratch whatever subjective itch you have.
With wargames, I have found games with great strategy, great mechanics and an educational component. Will they make me a scholar? Absolutely not. But no matter how slight the educational component, it is something that ought to be considered and weighed. A tacked on theme using wheat and carrots teaches nothing beyond the mechanics of the game itself. Never has, and never will.
Whether it's a eurogame or a wargame, the labels aren't terribly important to me. I'm just finding myself placing some value on an educational component. The underlying mechanics are also given value. These are weighed. I agree that a crappy wargame with great history isn't better than a dry eurogame with great mechanics. Since I'm new to wargaming, there are still plenty of games for me to choose that have fantastic mechanics and also throw in a small amount of historical education. That's why I'm playing fewer eurogames at the moment, and thus my "schizophrenia" comment.
I agree with you that a lot of wargames can be fiddly. That has always been a great advantage of eurogames. I mentioned earlier that wargames often take too long to play. No argument there. I've been fortunate enough to do some research and stay away from games that won't work with my schedule.
But overall, I'm surprised that you would expect a "one size fits all" approach to gaming. Anyone who doesn't agree with your subjective values is narrow-minded? We're not talking math here. There are no absolute laws. Methinks the pot called the kettle black.
Oh and I also think Nintendo needs to come out with a massive complicated top down Zelda. Though until they do the handful of ROM hacks of Zelda 3 are better than nothing.
I think the thing is that history and war games teach their theme. If you play Battle of Gettysburg, you're going to learn about the battle of Gettysburg. Most of the learning will come from the theme of the game, but if the game itself is good you might also learn the military strategies of the conflict. Tigris and Euphrates will teach you almost nothing about ancient Mesopotamia. It will teach you a hell of a lot about pattern recognition. So both kinds of games are educational in their own right. Heck, even Candy Land teaches you about candy and colors, and Uncle Wiggly teaches counting.
I feel though, that the historical education many war games have to offer is separate from the game mechanics. You don't learn anything extra about the Cold War by playing Twilight Struggle. You learn everything it has to teach just by reading the rules and the cards and such. Thus, if the history is the reason for buying the thing, in spite of bad mechanics, I feel that you may as well just buy a book and not bother playing. It's also why I feel that the game would be no different if it had a Sesame Street theme. Yet even though Agricola might not really teach anything about farming, the education it has to offer is in the resource management in the game itself, and not in the theme.
A perfect game would have a quality mechanic, a theme that acts as a good metaphor for the mechanic, and would have an educational component tied to both. Most of the games I can think of that accomplish this feat are role playing games where the theme is the game.
...and I pronounce it the Latin way, as did everyone else at the game night, so I'm gonna go with Rym on this one.
For DS games, I'm going back to the ones I never finished and forgot about, and I'm starting them over. Will I eve rfinish Pokemon Diamond, or am I doomed to repeat it forever?
The game plays from 1-5 (not up to 6 or 7).
The game has dethroned Puerto Rico on BGG...surprised this wasn't mentioned.
If I get the chance to play it again I don't think I'd focus so much on the classes or upgrading the house but rather diversifying crops. I still need to get the knack of producing enough food for the harvest while having some left over for final scoring and to build items etc.
They are actually sold in 3 parts: the farmers, the animals, and the resources. Looks like the resources pack is out of stock but the other two are in, and you have the option to order all 3 at a slight discount in the link above. Unfortunately I can't justify spending more than I paid for the game just to get some wooden cows and pigs, no matter how awesome they are, but who knows. Maybe I'll get them as a gift or something one day.
I wound up ordering the main game for $42 off of Sci-Fi City, which is the first time I think I've ever bought something from a Google Adsense ad (came up on BoardGameGeek). They are a small-time game and comic chain with a few locations and an online store. A lot of games 25-40% off retail price, free shipping at $100, and didn't charge me any tax, so I couldn't turn it down as there were a few other things on my "to-buy" list at good prices to bump me up to $100. Anyone ever order from them before? Doesn't seem like the most professional shop in the world, so I'm trying to estimate how fast their free shipping is.
They're calling it Agricola: The Goodies and charging $60. Found a couple places online taking pre-orders for $45. Being as this comes with extra decks and such as well, I figure it's now worth it, and pulled the trigger.
Now, I'm doing some searching (ongoing) but I'm have trouble finding a definitive edition. Would anyone who actually own this be willing to make recommendations about which edition I should be looking to pick up?
There are tons of little extra wooden bits to etter represent the pieces, and alternate decks you can swap out, but there is no official bundle. The official extra bits are in an expansion called Agricola: The Goodies, and there is a different version of all the wooden bits made independently by Mayday. There is much debate over who makes superior bits, but the Mayday sets have more of them. The Goodies expansion doen't have replacement bits for a few things, including the farmers themselves. Maybe I'll edit later with some links (killing time on my phone atm) bit it's easily found on Google.
So, I visited my companies library of awesomeness and found they now have board games for loaning. I spent my lunch hour rearranging the nightmare of a mess inside the games box and began digging into the rules. Now, if I understand correctly, the occupation cards are selected by the number of players and what kind of deck you want? Also, are all the minor improvement cards used in the deck?