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Fake Medicine is a Huge Problem

edited December 2008 in Everything Else
How big a problem is it? 38% of adults and 12% of children big. People want to complain about health insurance companies, and how they want nationalized health care and such. Well, maybe if we took the money that everyone is spending on fake medicine, and invested it in real medicine research, we wouldn't have these problems.

Comments

  • Wow. That is all I can say.
  • And this is just the people who use it. They should do a survey on how many people think chiropractors are back doctors.
  • It's sad. The only thing we can do as people is to tell who we know about the difference of real and fake medicine. I found it hard to explain to some family members who are set in your ways types. Luckily the majority of the family are medical professionals that already know.
  • I'm not sure that you can really count the 12% of children in this. Maybe say that X percentage of those 38% of adults bring their children along in this, but the children don't really have much say in the matter, do they?

    As an example, my parents jumped on some pretty strange health bandwagons during my childhood. I was under the age of ten, and was pretty much forced to do these things along with them. As an adult, the closest I normally get to any kind of alternative medicine is taking a multi-vitamin (a gift from my dad, incidentally) when I'm sick.
  • I'm not sure that you can really count the 12% of children in this. Maybe say that X percentage of those 38% of adults bring their children along in this, but the children don't really have much say in the matter, do they?

    As an example, my parents jumped on some pretty strange health bandwagons during my childhood. I was under the age of ten, and was pretty much forced to do these things along with them. As an adult, the closest I normally get to any kind of alternative medicine is taking a multi-vitamin (a gift from my dad, incidentally) when I'm sick.
    Of course it is obvious that the children didn't make the decision to take the fake medicine, and thus ou couldn't call them stupid for doing so. However, the 12% of children are an incredibly scary part of the problem. That means that 12% of children, that's more than 1 in 10, are not being taken care of properly. Think about Child's Play, which is trying to make sick kids in hospitals feel better. Well, think about the 1 in 10 kids who isn't going to the hospital when they need it, and is instead getting magic bullshit water.
  • edited December 2008
    That means that 12% of children, that's more than 1 in 10, are not being taken care of properly. Think about Child's Play, which is trying to make sick kids in hospitals feel better. Well, think about the 1 in 10 kids who isn't going to the hospital when they need it, and is instead getting magic bullshit water.
    Hold on there, Scott. Nowhere does the article state that they are receiving complementary and alternative medicine EXCLUSIVELY, nor what fake medicines they are receiving. If your kid has an ear infection and you take them to the doctor for treatment, but also give them some ginger to "help with the nausea" then who does it hurt? Who is the victim? Ginger won't hurt the kid, and if it has a placebo effect, then so be it. Now, if kids are receiving alternative medicines exclusively or being endangered by the alternative medicine, then there is a major problem. The article doesn't seem to elaborate or provide meaningful information about the depth and scope of the issue.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • Hold on there, Scott. Nowhere does the article state that they are receiving complementary and alternative medicine EXCLUSIVELY, nor what fake medicines they are receiving. If your kid has an ear infection and you take them to the doctor for treatment, but also give them some ginger to "help with the nausea" then who does it hurt? Who is the victim? Ginger won't hurt the kid, and if it has a placebo effect, then so be it. Now, if kids are receiving alternative medicines exclusively or being endangered by the alternative medicine, then there is a major problem. The article doesn't seem to elaborate or provide meaningful information about the depth and scope of the issue.
    The harm is in lying to people, and educating children with lies.

    Let's say you went to the doctor, and you were feeling ill. The doctor was being nice, and gave you free pills that they said would make you feel better. You take them, and after a few days you get better. Later on, you find out they were harmless sugar pills. The doctor placebo'd you. You would have gotten better in a few days anyway.

    Is that a good doctor or a bad doctor? Would you file a complaint? Would you visit them again? Is it ethical? You weren't given a placebo as part of a randomized scientific study, where you knew you might get put in the placebo group. You were give one and told it was real, biochemically active medicine. You really think that's ethical? If you don't think it's ethical, why would it not be ok for a doctor to do it to a patient, but ok for a parent to do it to a child?
  • edited December 2008
    1. I have noticed one thing about the article. They count people going to Yoga as being treated by fake medicine.
    I know a lot of people who go to yoga, and I have yet to find one who believes it squeezes toxins out of their body or what ever it purposively does, they do it to stretch and relax.

    I really think this stat is skewing the numbers quite a bit.
    9% practiced meditation, and 6% practiced yoga. About 8% reported having therapeutic massages or seeing a chiropractor during the previous year

    23% of people are doing things that have good effects on the body. So saying these people are there for the crazy may not be true. I would say that at least part of these people know that it isn't gonna cure their cancer or anything, but it makes them feel good. Messages are relaxing, and that is good for you.

    I'm not saying we should keep these things (call them messages and stretching and I'm fine with it.), I'm just saying the numbers are a little misrepresented.

    (oh no I forgot to spell check. Did I beat mr. Preiod with my edit? :/)
    Post edited by Mosquitoboy on
  • I'm not saying we should keep these things (call them messages and stretching and I'm fine with it.), I'm just saying the numbers are a little misrepresented.
    When you look at it this way, it's actually a different problem. By adding these things into the percentage, which maybe shouldn't be there, the article is inflating the percentage. In a way, the article is saying "hey, everybody is doing it" even when maybe not so many people are doing it.
  • edited December 2008
    I'm not saying we should keep these things (call them messages and stretching and I'm fine with it.), I'm just saying the numbers are a little misrepresented.
    When you look at it this way, it's actually a different problem. By adding these things into the percentage, which maybe shouldn't be there, the article is inflating the percentage. In a way, the article is saying "hey, everybody is doing it" even when maybe not so many people are doing it.
    I don't think it will have the effect of making more people take these fake meds.
    I think the reason for inflating the percentage is so that the statistician could let the public see that it's a real problem instead of just letting people think, "oh it happens a small amount of the time and we shouldn't worry."

    This is a reviewer bias is all, or so I believe. His goals were well intentioned, but that doesn’t make the bias that he didn't account for a good thing. He more or less gave us a study that means a lot less now. I hate when a real scientist does this crap, it's infuriating how someone can preach against pseudo science and manipulation… while manipulating the stats he uses to prove it.
    Post edited by Mosquitoboy on
  • edited December 2008
    Scott, I really fail to see any problems here. The article begins by defining CAM as "...herbal supplements, acupuncture, visits to chiropractors, massage therapy, mediation, and even yoga." and then later on mentioning fish oil, omega-3, or DHA, herb pills, flaxseed oil or pills, and deep breathing. From what I know, most of those things have beneficial effects, and pose mostly no health risks. Sure, taking those and those alone probably isn't a good idea; but taking them as a supplement shouldn't be a problem. To further the point, as Mrs. MacRoss said, the article didn't say that the people are exclusively receiving CAM.
    Let's say you went to the doctor, and you were feeling ill. The doctor was being nice, and gave you free pills that they said would make you feel better. You take them, and after a few days you get better. Later on, you find out they were harmless sugar pills. The doctor placebo'd you. You would have gotten better in a few days anyway.
    So what? As you said, the pills were free...therefor what was lost by the patient? Time and the money for the doctor visit? Sure, but that would have been the case with or without receiving fake pills. I think the placebo effect is perfectly fine. If said fake pills don't harm the patient, but they believe they're getting better, then that's fine. On the other hand, making people pay for sugar pills is unethical, because it's essentially stealing as far as I'm concerned. But again, if the pills were free, then who the fuck really cares?

    Then again, the article wasn't even about placebos. It was about alternative stuff like flaxseed, fish oil, and other vitamins. That's not placebo, those things actually have beneficial effects.

    So if someone wants to take a fish oil pill to help with cholesterol in addition to whatever else they're doing, who really gives a fuck? This is not a huge problem in any way, shape, or form.
    Post edited by Dkong on
  • Scott, I really fail to see any problems here. The article begins by defining CAM as "...herbal supplements, acupuncture, visits to chiropractors, massage therapy, mediation, and even yoga." and then later on mentioning fish oil, omega-3, or DHA, herb pills, flaxseed oil or pills, and deep breathing. From what I know, most of those things have beneficial effects, and pose mostly no health risks.
    Acupuncture and chiropractors are both fake, and are potentially very dangerous. Herbal supplements are less fake, but also potentially dangerous. All the other things you mentioned may be dangerous, but they do not have proven benefit. If you medidate or do yoga because you want to medidate, sure, whatever. If you drink fish oil because you like it, good for you. However, if someone is doing any of these things under the impression that they have medical benefits they are not proven to have, then that is a very big problem.
  • edited December 2008
    I think the reason for inflating the percentage is so that the statistician could let the public see that it's a real problem instead of just letting people think, "oh it happens a small amount of the time and we shouldn't worry."

    This is a reviewer bias is all, or so I believe. His goals were well intentioned, but that doesn’t make the bias that he didn't account for a good thing. He more or less gave us a study that means a lot less now. I hate when a real scientist does this crap, it's infuriating how someone can preach against pseudo science and manipulation… while manipulating the stats he uses to prove it.
    The writer is a journalist, not a statistician, and the article was suposedly reviewed by a doctor, not a statistician. There hopefully was a real statistician somewhere, but a lot gets lost in the reporting process, and this happens all the time, not just in this article.

    This normally wouldn't bother me enough for me to point it out, but you are guilty of doing the same thing.

    I really think this stat is skewing the numbers quite a bit.
    9% practiced meditation, and 6% practiced yoga. About 8% reported having therapeutic massages or seeing a chiropractor during the previous year

    23% of people are doing things that have good effects on the body. So saying these people are there for the crazy may not be true. I would say that at least part of these people know that it isn't gonna cure their cancer or anything, but it makes them feel good. Messages are relaxing, and that is good for you.
    This would properly read "UP TO 23% of people etc." The number could be as low as 9%, depending on how the groups overlap. You are using the highest possible number, which happens to support your point.
    Of course, I don't think you are doing this to try and fool me, It is proably a mistake made out of carelessness or lack of knowledge. The same is probably true of the person who wrote that article. Why assume malicious intent?
    Post edited by csrjjsmp on
  • There is a certain segment of the population that constantly badgers doctors for antibiotics even when they are not needed. I see no problem in giving these people sugar pills and telling them they are medicine if only to shut them up and not waste antibiotics.

    You probably know at least one (if not more) hypochondriacs in your life. Is it wrong to give them a placebo when they complain about their non-existent illness?

    I've given kids plenty of "Popsicle" medicine instead of Tylenol or other pain drugs when they are not seriously injured. Sometimes an injury only needs attention rather than medical attention. This also applies with doctor visits. There is a certain segment of the population that expects some sort of prescription drug when they go in complaining of an ailment. I consider it a good thing if the doc gives them some sugar pills when there is no real ailment to treat. If the patient gets pissed later on when they find out it was just sugar pills what are they really angry about?

    Are they angry the doc conned them with fake medicine or are they really angry that they wasted the docs time and both of them no know it?
  • You probably know at least one (if not more) hypochondriacs in your life. Is it wrong to give them a placebo when they complain about their non-existent illness?
    Yes. They need a psychiatrist/psychologist, not a placebo.
  • Scott, I really fail to see any problems here. The article begins by defining CAM as "...herbal supplements...
    St. John's Wort has caused serious, sometimes deadly interactions in people because it is an MAOI. I wouldn't call that harmless. Plants are the world's greatest chemists, and it's pretty foolish to underestimate them.
  • Scott, I see this thread as similar to sports idea that you guys have mentioned: The guy who likes Hockey and is meh about Football is better than the guy who likes Hockey and hates Football. Everybody here is being the Meh guy, but you intend to push on to hate Football.

    You seem to be going into that corner where you teeter between holding on to your purpose and becoming those indignant radicals. I know you serve the higher purpose of cognizance, but still, this is how it seems.
  • St. John's Wort has caused serious, sometimes deadly interactions in people because it is an MAOI. I wouldn't call that harmless. Plants are the world's greatest chemists, and it's pretty foolish to underestimate them.
    Don't forget stuff like Hypervitaminosis A. Just because it's a vitamin, doesn't mean you can take it however you please.
  • edited December 2008
    You probably know at least one (if not more) hypochondriacs in your life. Is it wrong to give them a placebo when they complain about their non-existent illness?
    Yes. They need a psychiatrist/psychologist, not a placebo.
    Ok, I see where you're going with this...but would you rather them have a placebo or an antibiotic that they don't need which wastes money and could harm them?
    Post edited by Dkong on
  • edited December 2008
    False dichotomy(?), your options would be between the a placebo which worsens their hypochondria and psychiatric help which helps cure them. The better choice becomes obvious.
    In a realistic situation, you would give them a placebo if they were in a serious state of panic and then refer them for psychiatric help to solve the root of the problem.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
    Yeah, that stuff will discolor your teeth... and ruin your immune system!
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
    Yeah, that stuff will discolor your teeth...and ruin your immune system!
    Or, I don't know, contribute to the ever-growing problem of multiple drug resistant pathogens. The use of antibiotics as placebos, and the improper usage of antibiotics by patients, have contributed tremendously to the resurgence of MDR Tuberculosis.
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
    Yeah, that stuff will discolor your teeth...and ruin your immune system!
    Or, I don't know, contribute to the ever-growing problem of multiple drug resistant pathogens. The use of antibiotics as placebos, and the improper usage of antibiotics by patients, have contributed tremendously to the resurgence of MDR Tuberculosis.
    This is one of the reasons I love Z Pak.
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
    I realize that, hence "could harm them". I was just saying that sometimes referring them to a psychiatrist might not be the best idea. Most, if not all, hypochondriacs don't even realize they have a problem.
  • antibiotic
    NO. NO. NO. NEVER ADMINISTER AN ANTIBIOTIC AS A PLACEBO. OH MY GOD. DON'T.
    I realize that, hence "could harm them". I was just saying that sometimes referring them to a psychiatrist might not be the best idea. Most, if not all, hypochondriacs don't even realize they have a problem.
    True, but someone needs to tell them. At the very least, prescribe a sugar pill instead of something that has any sort of effect, while also forwarding them for a psych evaluation.
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