GeekNights 090119 - Overclocking

Erwin

Tonight on GeekNights we explain why overclocking is no longer practical, though it once was. In the news, they are trying to take away Obama’s Blackberry, and an interview with an adware developer.
Scott’s Thing - Reforming the FCC
Rym’s Thing - Freaky WWI Photo

Erwin

After looking at the WWI photo I only have one thing to say:
"Are you my mummy?"

Viga

After looking at the WWI photo I only have one thing to say:
"Are you my mummy?"

*highfives* Awesome.

omegafinal

After looking at that freaky pic, I should've known that the first response here would be a Doctor Who quote.

MrRoboto

I'm pretty sure that picture is actually modern and part of a photo-essay, I just can't remember the name of the author, I'll ask around.

George Patches

I used to be an avid overclocker (before I could afford to upgrade the horsepower on my car) and like you guys I just got feed up with the bull shit after a while. The most recent overclocking I did was when the newer H. 264 720P anime video started to outstrip the ability of my old AMD 1.8 Sempron. After fighting with the board for a while, I just swapped in the AMD 1.8 dual core from my server and never looked back. I run virtual servers now and the Sempron resides in my firewall box.

Apreche

I used to be an avid overclocker (before I could afford to upgrade the horsepower on my car) and like you guys I just got feed up with the bull shit after a while.

Overclocking a car is actually a very good idea. Even if you aren't someone who's looking to break the law and/or participate in legal or illegal automobile racing, doing something like properly adding a turbo can increase gas mileage. I really don't know why all cars don't come with turbos. Why let that energy from the exhaust go to waste?

MrRoboto

I used to be an avid overclocker (before I could afford to upgrade the horsepower on my car) and like you guys I just got feed up with the bull shit after a while.

Overclocking a car is actually a very good idea. Even if you aren't someone who's looking to break the law and/or participate in legal or illegal automobile racing, doing something like properly adding a turbo can increase gas mileage. I really don't know why all cars don't come with turbos. Why let that energy from the exhaust go to waste?

High maintenance plus the fact that you are adding even more pieces that can easily break. Although if implemented to all cars, the technology would become cheaper and probably more reliant and efficient.

George Patches

doing something like properly adding a turbo can increase gas mileage. I really don't know why all cars don't come with turbos. Why let that energy from the exhaust go to waste?

Actually no, a turbocharger only lets you burn more fuel. The only way a turbo adds fuel economy is if the entire car is designed from the ground up to use it. Longer gear ratios must be selected and a smaller displacement engine. As for why don't all car come with one, two reasons, cost and complexity. A turbo adds at least $500 to the cost of an engine in just the cost of the turbo. Then there's the intercooler, the exhaust manifold has to much tougher, the fuel injectors need to bigger, you need an oil cooler, a bigger radiator, etc. A good, factory turbocharged engine is probably $1-2K more than it's equivalent output normally aspirated engine.

Apreche

A good, factory turbocharged engine is probably $1-2K more than it's equivalent output normally aspirated engine.

Mmm, but how long will it take you to make back that $1-$2k in fuel savings?

George Patches

A good, factory turbocharged engine is probably $1-2K more than it's equivalent output normally aspirated engine.

Mmm, but how long will it take you to make back that $1-$2k in fuel savings?

The thing is you'd get better fuel economy from the same displacement with no turbo due to being able to run a higher compression ratio and better volumetric efficiency. The downside is it won't have much power.

MrRoboto

It depends just on how do you want to save, you can turbo a smaller engine and get the same power + less gas consumption than your current setup, compared to the bigger engine, you are saving money, but if you swap it with a smaller engine (but with less power) would be saving even more. The turbo could be a commitment in between.

Apreche

The thing is you'd get better fuel economy from the same displacement with no turbo due to being able to run a higher compression ratio and better volumetric efficiency. The downside is it won't have much power.

The key is that you are talking about the same displacement. Two same sized engines, one has better fuel economy, but less power, the other has more power with a turbo.

Do the same comparison between a smaller engine with turbo to a larger engine without. The smaller turbo engine can get the same, or even more power, than the larger one, and there is a lot of fuel savings because of reduced weight. Remember, a turbo adds a lot of power, but it isn't particularly heavy. Not as heavy as extra cylinders anyway.

In related news, I'm excited about Fiat buying Chrysler. Maybe in 10 years or so, I will buy a tiny car.

Omnutia

In return, Fiat will receive:
• Access to Chrysler's distribution network and suppliers

Look forward to Fiats in America. May be sooner than 10 years.

Bronzdragon

Maybe in 10 years or so, I will buy a tiny car.

Define tiny. (if it's over 1 and a half yard, don't bother)

Omnutia

Maybe in 10 years or so, I will buy a tiny car.

Define tiny. (if it's over 1 and a half yard, don't bother)

Fiat 126. About 3m long.

Kate Monster

In related news, I'm excited about Fiat buying Chrysler. Maybe in 10 years or so, I will buy a tiny car.

Fiat isn't buying Chrysler, at least not yet. This is the memo we received at work:

Fiat Group, Chrysler LLC and Cerberus Capital Management L.P. Announce Plans for a Global Strategic Alliance
Auburn Hills, Mich., Jan 20, 2009 -- Fiat S.p.A., Chrysler LLC (Chrysler) and Cerberus Capital Management L.P., the private investment majority owner of Chrysler LLC, announced today they have signed a non-binding term sheet to establish a global strategic alliance.
The alliance, to be a key element of Chrysler's viability plan, would provide Chrysler with access to competitive, fuel-efficient vehicle platforms, powertrain, and components to be produced at Chrysler manufacturing sites. Fiat would also provide distribution capabilities in key growth markets, as well as substantial cost savings opportunities. In addition, Fiat would provide management services supporting Chrysler's submission of a viability plan to the U.S. Treasury as required. Fiat has been very successful in executing its own restructuring over the past several years. The alliance would also allow Fiat Group and Chrysler to take advantage of each other's distribution networks and to optimize fully their respective manufacturing footprint and global supplier base.
The proposed alliance would be consistent with the terms and conditions of the U.S. Treasury financing to Chrysler. Per the U.S. Treasury loan agreement, each constituent will be asked to contribute to Chrysler's restructuring effort including: lenders, employees, the UAW, dealers, suppliers and Chrysler Financial. Such steps would greatly contribute to Chrysler's long term viability plan. Completion of the alliance is subject to due diligence and regulatory approvals, including the U.S. Treasury.
As a consideration for Fiat Group's contribution to the alliance of strategic assets, to include: product and platform sharing, including city and compact segment vehicles, to expand Chrysler's current product portfolio; technology sharing, including fuel efficient and environmentally friendly powertrain technologies; and access to additional markets, including distribution for Chrysler vehicles in markets outside of North America, Fiat would receive an initial 35 percent equity interest in Chrysler. The alliance does not contemplate that Fiat would make a cash investment in Chrysler or commit to funding Chrysler in the future.
"This initiative represents a key milestone in the rapidly changing landscape of the automotive sector and confirms Fiat and Chrysler commitment and determination to continue to play a significant role in this global process. The agreement will offer both companies opportunities to gain access to most relevant automotive markets with innovative and environmentally friendly product offering, a field in which Fiat is a recognized world leader while benefitting from additional cost synergies. The deal follows a number of targeted alliances and partnerships signed by the Fiat Group with leading carmakers and automotive suppliers over the last five years aimed at supporting the growth and volume aspirations of the partners involved," the CEO of Fiat Group, Sergio Marchionne said.
"A Chrysler/Fiat partnership is a great fit as it creates the potential for a powerful, new global competitor, offering Chrysler a number of strategic benefits , including access to products that compliment our current portfolio; a distribution network outside North America; and cost savings in design, engineering, manufacturing, purchasing and sales and marketing," said Bob Nardelli, Chairman and CEO of Chrysler LLC. "This transaction will enable Chrysler to offer a broader competitive line-up of vehicles for our dealers and customers that meet emissions and fuel efficiency standards, while adhering to conditions of the Government Loan . The partnership would also provide a return on investment for the American taxpayer by securing the long-term viability of Chrysler brands in the marketplace , sustaining future product and technology development for our country and building renewed consumer confidence, while preserving American jobs."
"This is great news for the UAW Chrysler team and we look forward to supporting and working with them to ensure Chrysler's long term viability," said Ron Gettelfinger, President United Auto Workers (UAW).
"We're on board with this important strategic initiative as it will help preserve the long-term viability of our great company, its brands and of course UAW-Chrysler jobs," said General Holiefield, Vice President, United Auto Workers (UAW).
About Chrysler LLC
Chrysler LLC, headquartered in Auburn Hills, Mich., produces Chrysler, Jeep®, Dodge and Mopar® brand vehicles and products. Total sales worldwide in 2008 were 2 million vehicles. Outside of North America, 2008 was the second-best sales year in the last decade and the third-best ever for Chrysler International. Chrysler LLC's product lineup features some of the world's most recognizable vehicles, including the Chrysler 300 and Town & Country, Jeep Wrangler and Grand Cherokee and Dodge Challenger and Ram. In the fall of 2008, Chrysler introduced three advanced electric-drive vehicle prototypes – the Dodge EV, Jeep EV and Chrysler EV. One is targeted to be produced in 2010 for consumers in North American markets, and European markets after 2010.
About Fiat
Founded in 1899, Fiat is an automotive-focused industrial group, serving customers in more than 190 countries around the world. With some 185,000 employees, 114 R&D; centers and 178 plants worldwide, the Fiat Group designs, manufactures and sells passenger cars (Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Abarth, Maserati and Ferrari), agricultural and construction equipment (CNH Case New Holland), trucks and industrial vehicles (Iveco), and automotive components (FPT Powertrain Technologies, Magneti Marelli and Teksid). More information available at www.fiatgroup.com or www.fiatgroupautomobilespress.com.

Churba

Maybe in 10 years or so, I will buy a tiny car.

Define tiny. (if it's over 1 and a half yard, don't bother)

Fiat 126.About 3m long.

Just a hair over, in fact - Roughly the length of the original mini. For an extra 70 Cm or so in length, you could ride around in real style, and get yourself a Morris 1000.

George Patches

The key is that you are talking about the same displacement. Two same sized engines, one has better fuel economy, but less power, the other has more power with a turbo.

Do the same comparison between a smaller engine with turbo to a larger engine without. The smaller turbo engine can get the same, or even more power, than the larger one, and there is a lot of fuel savings because of reduced weight. Remember, a turbo adds a lot of power, but it isn't particularly heavy. Not as heavy as extra cylinders anyway.

The weight savings are trivial in economy calculations, you're losing 50 lbs at most. The fuel savings come from the smaller displacement engine at cruise due to decreased pumping lose. This gain in reduced pumping lose is offset by a lower compression ratio and heavier internal components needed for forced induction. But you seem to be assuming that a smaller engine with a turbo will produce the same output as a larger one. This is not entirely true. While a turbo engine can match the peak output of a larger engine, it has a different powerband. A regular engine will produce torque right at idle, but a turbo (generally) needs about 2000 rpms before it gets busy. My car just starts to come on boost at 2000, but it isn't really rocking til 2500. The more you try to boost an engine, the bigger the turbo needed, the more turbo lag you get.

Anyway, there's good reasons why turbocharged engines are generally not popular. They were popular in the 80's when it was hard to make emissions with large engines, and they fell out of favor (because most couldn't handle the increased maintenance.) Engines got a lot better and cleaner in the 90's so no one cared about them anymore. Now they're starting to come back into favor with the tightening european emissions and reduced co2 emissions.

Apreche

Oh yeah, I forgot about turbo lag. There was a whole thing in Initial D about it.

MrRoboto

Guess I was wrong:

Pioneers in Defense Drill, Leningrad (1937)

taken in Leningrad, USSR in 1937 by photo-journalist Viktor Bulla. The photo is of a group of Pioneers (Soviet boyscouts).
Bulla’s photograph of hundreds of children wearing gas masks was not meant to be ghoulish, a commentary on war or lost innocence, but rather exemplified a reason for pride–the country was blessed with well-trained, well-equipped and obviously courageous young fighters.

George Patches

Oh yeah, I forgot about turbo lag. There was a whole thing in Initial D about it.

Yeah, it's kinda a bitch. I think we're all gonna have to learn to live with it in the next decade if diesels start to take over. Initial D showed you a racing turbo, which has a lot more lag than a road going turbo. You effectively have no power and then it all hits like a sledgehammer. My friend wants to put something like that on his car, and I'm trying to talk him into a smaller one so it won't be so bad.

MrRoboto

How about a supercharger like a whipple for low RPMs then have the computer switch it off(via a clutch or something) when the turbo kicks in at high RPM? (I know it doesn't exist and if there is such a monstrosity it's probably not that reliable)

Thaed

I am a huge fan of overclocking but I agree that you shouldn't do it in all instances. My media pc is on all the time and it's not overclocked. However, 4 of the other computers in my house are. Also, as Rym says, if you do overclocking right and you're not too extreme about it, you're not going trash your system or shorten its life in a material way. Also, I want the fastest machine I can get for video rendering. Rendering on a q9550 OC'ed to 3.2 GHz still takes a long time with HD.

Omnutia

[Nobody here but us chickens.]

George Patches

How about a supercharger like a whipple for low RPMs then have the computer switch it off(via a clutch or something) when the turbo kicks in at high RPM? (I know it doesn't exist and if there is such a monstrosity it's probably not that reliable)

Actually VW, made such a thing. Not with a massive twin screw supercharger like a whipple, but a small roots one. It is however exactly as you expect, unsmooth and unreliable. It's a testament to what happens when you let the Germans needless complicate something. What seems to be popular now is 2 stage turbocharging (it's 2 stage only in name, and not the same as actual two stage turbo charging used on large diesels) in which you have a small turbo at low rpms and switch over to large one at higher rpms. BMW uses to great effect on their diesel and high performance gasoline engines. The issue is that all the valves and turbos cost a lot extra, though it does work better than VW's plan. In all honesty though it's not very good, BMW only made 300 hp, which from a 3.0L engine is not that impressive because they can't run much boost because the compression ratio is too high in a futile attempt to boost the MPG. Basically, "they tried to do too much with it."

No, if you want efficiency with a bit of power, just use a small turbo. It's gonna limit your max hp, but it'll feel the most like a larger engine.

Churba

Oh yeah, I forgot about turbo lag. There was a whole thing in Initial D about it.

Yeah, it's kinda a bitch. I think we're all gonna have to learn to live with it in the next decade if diesels start to take over. Initial D showed you a racing turbo, which has a lot more lag than a road going turbo. You effectively have no power and then it all hits like a sledgehammer. My friend wants to put something like that on his car, and I'm trying to talk him into a smaller one so it won't be so bad.

I'm not sure about Diesel Sedans (Never driven one) But i find that in most larger diesel vehicles I've had any experience, it's barely noticeable when the turbo kicks in.
Diesels have enough power to pull Jesus off the rocks when you're going slow, but the faster you go, the less power you get, and suddenly your big powerful diesel engine couldn't pull the skin off a week old rice pudding - the first turbochargers were invented to solve this problem, among others.

sucrilhos

One thing about OC'ing nowadays is that it won't void warranty on hardware for most brands. So if you have some of BFG's or EVGA's hardware that carry lifetime warranty there isn't any reason why not to OC, at least the little bit that won't make your system unstable.
On another note I have an after market turbo charged car, done by myself with help from a mechanic, it's loads of fun. The one thing is that it's more like a hobby than a car. Whoever plans on messing with this sort of thing needs to know that it's very time consuming and expensive.

Bronzdragon

SuxoR

It's an interesting point that the guys make about OC'ing and it's usefulness now a days, but I think they might have exaggerated a bit on how much it decays the lifespan of your parts.
Over clocking is a fun hobby and can easily become addicting since it's fun to install and tweak hardware, OC'ing just shows how well you can set it all up and keep it stable.