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Biomedical Ethics: Designer Children

edited February 2009 in Flamewars
If in twenty years you are given the option to be able to "pick" the genetic traits of your child, would you? The options may someday be endless. You could pick hair, eye and skin color, height and weight, aptitude for athletics and academics, gender and health. Which options would you choose? Which options do you think it's OK for other people to choose?

I know environmental factors play a huge role in a child's development but this is a genetic booster shot. Lets say your family has a history of pancreatic cancer, would you choose to turn that gene off?
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Comments

  • Yes I would, but it would be bad, because probably only rich people would be able to pay for this, and so, you would separate social classes even more, making it almost impossible for future generations to jump the gap.
  • Which options would you choose?
    The capacity to sit still and be quiet.
  • To me, it depends on how much the public accepts the practice. I would hate for my children to be discriminated against or considered inferior just because of my stubborn and outdated views on what is "unnatural". However, I may draw the line on psychological tailoring. Using genetics to make sure my children will always "sit still and be quiet" falls into my belief that "just because there's a solution doesn't mean there's a problem". After all, some of the greatest historical figures would probably have been diagnosed with ADD as children.
  • JayJay
    edited February 2009
    Yes I would, but it would be bad, because probably only rich people would be able to pay for this, and so, you would separate social classes even more, making it almost impossible for future generations to jump the gap.
    I see this as a problem only as the technology is in its infancy. As techniques are refined and economics of scale come into play I would hope such procedures would become affordable to a much wider portion of the public. If the technology became cheap enough I could also see screening and modifications for harmful traits being offered for free in socialized medical systems.

    If the technology became affordable to the majority of people I would also see designer babies as a way of leveling the playing field more than creating wider gaps in it. The sad fact is genetics can play a large role in how successful an individual is in life. As of right now no form of competition is truly fair. Is it “fair” that you didn’t get the scholarship available for academic excellence because the kid you were competing with has photographic memory? Is it fair that you’ll never make the football team because you have the unfortunate genetic makeup where you will only be 5’3 and it is incredibly difficult for you to put on muscle mass? (Where you’re competing against those who are a foot taller then you and seemingly can do 6 hours of physical activity week and maintain great condition) I would see designer children as a way of lessening random chance having an adverse affect on your offspring’s life.

    Now if it turns out the technology takes incredibly long to become affordable to the masses I can see many problems arising such as MrRoboto pointed out. My feelings on designer babies are solely premised on a large swath of the public having access to the technology.
    Post edited by Jay on
  • Using genetics to make sure my children will always "sit still and be quiet" falls into my belief that "just because there's a solution doesn't mean there's a problem". After all, some of the greatest historical figures would probably have been diagnosed with ADD as children.
    I might not want my kids to be great historical figures. It might be fun to be a great historical figure, but it's probably not very fun to be related to a great historical figure.
  • edited February 2009
    All I have to say is that I would be first in line (if I had the money) to have a coordinator baby.
    *Gundam Seed Joke*

    But seriously, I don't see the problem ethically with enhancing the health and skill of the kid on a genetic level. Don't most parents want a healthy and happy child? I mean, the problem presented in the Gattaca scenario is that there was bias based purely on genetics and not recognizable skill. Pristine genes would make your child have a better life, I think. Isn't that the most important thing?

    The cosmetic things are secondary, but especially if we found a way to turn off cancer/disease causing genes and reduce the cellular damage from aging, I think it would be wonderful to have a science-made kid.
    However, I may draw the line on psychological tailoring.
    Did you know that they are finding that Schizophrenia is probably genetic? What about if they discover an autism-related gene? I think that I would take big psychological problems into account.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • edited February 2009
    I would never do it. In the long term, this could have horrible effects. I am not a biologist, but I do understand that variety is necessary to thrive and that some genetic defects may lead to or have unknown benefits. Mutation is good, adaptation is good, etc. I say this as a cancer survivor.
    Moreover, to design a child for aesthetics and abilities seems disgusting to me. You aren't buying a car, picking out drapes, or even buying a breed of dog. You are creating a new individual, not a robot.
    The cosmetic things are secondary, but especially if we found a way to turn off cancer/disease causing genes and reduce the cellular damage from aging, I think it would be wonderful to have a science-made kid.
    While it would be great to just turn off certain diseases, I ask the biologists among us if there are any known or possible consequences of limiting mutations in a population?
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • About psychological tailoring (and the historical figures example), I wasn't talking about something that would be unanimously negative, like schizophrenia. However, there are certain things about people which can be seen as a positive or a negative. For example, I always had difficulty paying attention in a class environment, to the point where teachers have suggested I get tested for ADD. However, outside of school, I see my energetic personality as a positive trait. If I were given the option to change these kinds of traits, regardless of what scary name the doctor may call it, I would probably leave it up to chance instead of having an always obedient, never surprising child.
  • edited February 2009
    Mrs. Macross,

    Short answer, Yes! in some cases this could be a problem.

    I will possibly expound if noone else does when I am not at work.
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • I would never do it. In the long term, this could have horrible effects. I am not a biologist, but I do understand that variety is necessary to thrive and that some genetic defects may lead to or have unknown benefits.
    Say you know you and your husband are both carriers for Tay-Sachs disease. It is fatal. You can pick 25% chance your child dies in infancy, or 0% chance your child dies in infancy. You pick 25?
  • Moreover, to design a child for aesthetics and abilities seems disgusting to me. You aren't buying a car, picking out drapes, or even buying a breed of dog. You are creating a new individual, not a robot.
    Why not? Maybe you want a robot. Is that so wrong?
  • edited February 2009
    You are already doing designer genetics by choosing specific mates with certain traits; it's just very sloppy and imprecise, and much of the selection is on the subconscious level. Why would we want to criminalize conscious decisions on such things? And why do we cling to this romantic vision of imprecision and chance being good, that "natural" has more merit than all the wonders Man's hands can work?
    Post edited by Jason on
  • edited February 2009
    Say you know you and your husband are both carriers for Tay-Sachs disease. It is fatal. You can pick 25% chance your child dies in infancy, or 0% chance your child dies in infancy. You pick 25?
    I would adopt.
    Why not? Maybe you want a robot. Is that so wrong?
    Then buy a robot, don't play at being a parent with real children.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • You are already doing designer genetics by choosing specific mates with certain traits; it's just very sloppy and imprecise, and much of the selection is on the subconscious level. Why would we want to criminalize conscious decisions on such things? And why do we cling to this romantic vision of imprecision and chance being good, that "natural" has more merit than all the wonders Man's hands can work?
    First, nobody said anything about criminalizing genetic design. Some people would just prefer to opt out, especially given the uncertainty of such technology.
    Second, who is to say what is good? We tailor a generation of "ideal" people, and humanity could lose a lot. What if this "ideal" person is always content? Or prone to thinking logically rather than creativity? As far as we know, that "ideal" brain could be ideal for nothing except working at a desk job.

    Humanity has achieved great things and improved dramatically thanks to diversity. I say there's no such thing as ideal, and we're better off just staying imprecise.
  • The logical thinking vs creative thinking is a false dichotomy.

    On the wider issue, I've yet to hear any really convincing argument either way. The people who say "go for it" rely on the basic goodness of humans. The people who say "it shouldn't be allowed" seem to have a very short term view of the future. I'm inclined to restrict large scale genetic moderations of humans for now, not on the basis that it will create inequalities between rich and poor, but mainly because I'm not convinced it is safe and health for the generation involved.
  • Pros: Could eliminate birth defects
    Cons: Divides classes, makes the species weak (remember: sexual selection exists to help us evolve adaptation, and traits artificially selected for are often detrimental to survival (see the "tulip break virus" that merchants treasured in Amsterdam))

    I feel like I'd only change my kid to save him or her from something awful in the geneline (Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, autism, cancer), and even then with a great deal of apprehension. I'd prefer not to touch my kid at all, because part of the neatness of having a baby, at least to me, has always been the variation you get out of it. Biology has worked for billions of years, and I don't see a reason to mess with it just because I want a kid with blue eyes, straight teeth, or a cheery disposition.

    Also: Gene therapy has really, really ugly ugly consequences when it doesn't work right now (think about it: inserting the right genes just a bit too far down the strand? Ruinous), so I would never attempt it on a child, especially an unborn one. I do like the idea of a Transmet-style world, where a person is born and then can "take trait" to punch up any holes in their genetic firewall. It alleviates a lot of the bioethics issues, and would still help most groups that needed something like that.
  • Why not? Maybe you want a robot. Is that so wrong?
    Then buy a robot, don't play at being a parent with real children.
    Genetics might give us robots long before nuts-and-bolts engineering does. If Scott is right and we're nothing more than a configuration of atoms and Pete is right and free will is an illusion, I'm not sure I understand why genetic robots would be such a bad thing.
  • Cons: Divides classes
    In what scenario does it widen class divisions? As Emily said, it only affects someone if you make decisions based on genes as opposed to actual talent.
    makes the species weak (remember: sexual selection exists to help us evolve adaptation
    There's more than one mechanism of evolution. Sexual selection is not the only kind. How much do you think sexual selection is affecting the human race any more?
    traits artificially selected for are often detrimental to survival
    Who ever died because they had blue eyes? Or because they were more resistant to cancer?
  • 1) Alright, so you might have me on class division. But if genes modify talent, then that line is blurred.
    2) Eh, okay.
    3) I had an argument, but I realized it was a slippery slope.

    Alright, so: I'd do it, but only for medical stuff. Like if my baby is going to have Tay-Sachs, mod that shit.
  • I am identical twin. My brother and I had ingrowing toenails within a week of each other, but never for years before and never again since. We have the same DNA exactly. But we are different people, with different goals and aims and passions in life. I'd have no problem raising a clone of someone else as my own child, especially if I know the original was genetically "perfect" and had every chance of living a long and healthy life. If I could gain the same long life benefits for my child with my own sperm providing half the DNA I would too. I think we're a long way from that at the moment though.
  • I would never do it. In the long term, this could have horrible effects. I am not a biologist, but I do understand that variety is necessary to thrive and that some genetic defects may lead to or have unknown benefits. Mutation is good, adaptation is good, etc. I say this as a cancer survivor.
    Moreover, to design a child for aesthetics and abilities seems disgusting to me. You aren't buying a car, picking out drapes, or even buying a breed of dog. You are creating a new individual, not a robot.
    But essentially what you are doing is controlling the mutations voluntarily rather than leaving it up to chance. The "mono-culture" problem is only trouble when everyone has very similar genes (say, if we were all clones of each other). You are still creating a new individual, you are just building him/her consciously, rather than going "hey, whatever comes out comes out." I don't see anything morally wrong with not leaving things up to chance. You aren't picking out a car or drapes, you should have the same amount of emotional investment in your child's future as you would if they were natural-born. I know if I could know, not hope, but KNOW that my child would come out healthier and stronger, I would be incredibly happy.

    What's to say that humans would not longer mutate or evolve? We would just be controlling our own evolution, rather than leaving it up to chance. The problem is that right now we have a mix of good genes and harmful genes that we are constantly mixing together. We could take out all the bad ones and make sure that we were producing young full of hybrid vigor and shining good health. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything ethically wrong with that.

    (Now there is a limit to my genetic engineering optimism...I somehow doubt it would be a good thing to let parents decide that they want a child who grows antlers or glows in the dark. I think that people should be ethically responsible about this.)
  • edited February 2009
    Just a reminder but, try thinking of this argument in the context of what the world will be like when it becomes possible. How likely is it that cancer or other problems will no longer be much of a problem by the time we can effectively manipulate the human genome?
    Humans have already bred selectively and genetic engineering of plants and animals is an extension of our artifical selection, why shouldn't we do the same to ourselves?

    Personally, cyborgs > mutants. Cyborg mutants also an idea. Just think about the jetpacks..
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I would eliminate only the deadly diseases like cistic fribrosis, it is an ugly way to die.
  • I would never do it. In the long term, this could have horrible effects. I am not a biologist, but I do understand that variety is necessary to thrive and that some genetic defects may lead to or have unknown benefits. Mutation is good, adaptation is good, etc. I say this as a cancer survivor.
    Moreover, to design a child for aesthetics and abilities seems disgusting to me. You aren't buying a car, picking out drapes, or even buying a breed of dog. You are creating a new individual, not a robot.
    But essentially what you are doing is controlling the mutations voluntarily rather than leaving it up to chance. The "mono-culture" problem is only trouble when everyone has very similar genes (say, if we were all clones of each other). You are still creating a new individual, you are just building him/her consciously, rather than going "hey, whatever comes out comes out." I don't see anything morally wrong with not leaving things up to chance. You aren't picking out a car or drapes, you should have the same amount of emotional investment in your child's future as you would if they were natural-born. I know if I could know, not hope, but KNOW that my child would come out healthier and stronger, I would be incredibly happy.

    What's to say that humans would not longer mutate or evolve? We would just be controlling our own evolution, rather than leaving it up to chance. The problem is that right now we have a mix of good genes and harmful genes that we are constantly mixing together. We could take out all the bad ones and make sure that we were producing young full of hybrid vigor and shining good health. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything ethically wrong with that.

    (Now there is a limit to my genetic engineering optimism...I somehow doubt it would be a good thing to let parents decide that they want a child who grows antlers or glows in the dark. I think that people should be ethically responsible about this.)
    Ideally I agree with making people "perfectly" healthy. The problem is that reality does not agree with that. There are so many genes, and they are so inter-connected, that it is going to be a very very long time before we can modify genes and be really certain about all of the effects that will have. If we start trying to change genes to eliminate tay sachs, sickle cell, or other diseases we have a pretty good chances of causing others, or creating new ones. Before we can modify genes responsibly, we need perfect information about the genetic code. We have a lot of information about it now, but not perfect information.

    If we do indeed unlock the genetic code perfectly, why not make people with antlers or who glow in the dark? Naturally blue luminescent hair, why not? The only thing that's unfair about it is that the parents are making a decision that the kid can't change, but is that any worse than letting random change make the decision? Even so, I think people will accept this kind of thing a lot more if we also figure out how to make changes post-birth. That way if your parents got you blue hair, you can change to green later. Hyperion addresses this issue.
  • edited February 2009
    Ok, I take it we're agreed on the basics of some kind of genetic service pack that irons out all the problem that we can.

    What about extending people's lives for space flight? or just in general? There are creatures that can live with out a predefined expiration date, should humans be the same?

    @Scott: We're talking very hypothetically here. We're a long way off being able to safely alter human genetics.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • Gills.

    That is all.
  • edited February 2009
    Gills.
    That is all.
    Gills? Would be kinda cool. They would be more of a decorative thing though, by that time, some kind of plaster [band-aid] that oxygenates your blood directly would probably be available.
    Post edited by Omnutia on
  • I want wings. Secondarily, I'd like a tail. After that, better ears and maybe an amber third eyelid would be nice.
  • edited February 2009
    Gills? Would be kinda cool. They would be more of a decorative thing though, by that time, some kind of plaster [band-aid] that oxygenates your blood directly would probably be available.
    This gives me a much more interesting topic.

    Let's say we want people to breathe underwater. We can do it with technology, like SCUBA. We can do it with a genetic modification, people with gills. Or we can do it with a cyborg-type modification, cybernetic SCUBA. Assuming that all other factors, such as how long you can stay under, are equal, which method is the best choice?

    Ask yourself the same question about other things. Let's say we want to make people with better vision. Should we genetically engineer people to have better eyes? Should we make better glasses/contact lenses? Should we replace people's eyes with electronic eyeballs? Assuming that all three choices give the same quality of vision, which one do you do? Should we even bother developing all three, or just concentrate on one?

    I've read about all three different choices in science fiction. You've got the genetically perfect beings who kick everyone's ass. You've got the beings who put their brains into machines, like Ghost in The Shell. Then you've got the incredibly fragile and genetically broken beings who live in electronic exoskeletons, like Meklars from Master of Orion.
    Post edited by Apreche on
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