But in this hypothetical situation the game experience would be absolutely identical to the one in which you are indeed playing with your friends. So what you're basically saying is that it doesn't really matter what the game is, you get your jollies just by knowing that there are human beings out there somewhere controlling some portion of the game.
Now you are just going into asshat mode. I think you are very much aware that no matter how perfect an AI, it would never be the same thing as playing with or against people you know. So I propose the same question. Would you play Counter Strike or NS if all the other players were just perfect AI that played and acted just like friends and people you know that play? It would present an identical gaming experience.
What I am saying is that it does matter what the game is, in that it has to be fun by itself. Playing with friends adds to the experience to make it better, and worthwhile to play for a longer term then if it was single player.
Now you are just going into asshat mode. I think you are very much aware that no matter how perfect an AI, it would never be the same thing as playing with or against people you know.
Yes, I agree. That's what makes this hypothetical. We pretend that the impossible is the truth for the sake of discussion.
Would you play Counter Strike or NS if all the other players were just perfect AI that played and acted just like friends and people you know that play? It would present an identical gaming experience.
Yes, I absolutely would play those games. They are games of skill, and playing them would be worthwhile as mental exercise.
What I am saying is that it does matter what the game is, in that it has to be fun by itself. Playing with friends adds to the experience to make it better, and worthwhile to play for a longer term then if it was single player.
So you agree that you find tedious menial labor, requiring no skill, fun. And you agree that doing it with friends will make it fun for a longer period of time. When can I expect you for work in the wallet factory?
Yes, I agree. That's what makes this hypothetical. We pretend that the impossible is the truth for the sake of discussion.
Yes, I absolutely would play those games. They are games of skill, and playing them would be worthwhile as mental exercise.
I guess that is a difference between us. I am not arguing the skill required to play those games, however I would feel it was pointless to play against AI, even a perfect one, as a replacement for real friends. You can argue that I could be tricked into playing with this perfect AI, and I would not be aware of the difference. However, the instant that the AI is discovered, I would stop immediately. It would be the same for any group activity, board games, sports games, etc. The enjoyment of doing those things is based largely in the doing it with other people. There could be merit to using the AI for a quick game simply to hone your skills but that is generally a lot less fun.
So you agree that you find tedious menial labor, requiring no skill, fun. And you agree that doing it with friends will make it fun for a longer period of time. When can I expect you for work in the wallet factory?
Nope, I have never agreed with your opinion that the game is entirely tedious menial labor requiring no skill. Though I really feel no desire to argue on that point any further, as I don't think it will ever come to a useful conclusion.
If you could make that game, you would probably rule the world. Making AI that is indistinguishable from the real thing? Nobody has ever come up with anything that could even come remotely close to passing the Turing Test. The uncanny valley is difficult terrain to cross.
(I just wanted to throw Turing and the UV in there since we're talking about perfect AI)
I think this is why Rym refrained from, and I hesistated to , use AI in the question. The discussion has nothing to do with AI, yet inevitably that is where the discussion has gone.
For the rest of the forum: Of course it's not technically feasible, but for the sake of argument, pretend that you could have an AI that would exactly replicate the WoW experience perfectly; that is, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and it's as if all your friends are there, playing with you, and it feels exactly the same.
Yes, that is a game I would play, and furthermore, any multiplayer game to which this was done would see the exact same amount of play. Thus, yes, I would play WoW on the merits of the game and associated experience alone. However, you'll note that you MUST replicate the multiplayer experience, since quite a bit of the game revolves around, and in fact requires, interaction with other players. Of course, our hypothetical scenario assumes that, but I'm just emphasizing it here; you must be able to interact with other entities in order for WoW to work at all.
Now, the question I have is: what is the point of that question? I mean, if the world were actually the Matrix, for example, I'd love to be able to break out; however, the reality is that a perfect deception like that is, well, perfect, and so is effectively indistinguishable from reality.
I very rarely play video games for the experience of playing with other people. I soloed for my short time in WoW, I haven't played many multi-player shooters, and I've only linked my DS to other players a half dozen times or so. The enjoyment I derive from video games is typically not dependant on others, and that's how I like it. For a social gaming experience, pen-n-paper role-playing or board-gaming gives me all I need.
I don't believe in the value of building skills in games - if you think being the best sniper in Battlefield 2 means anything, you need serious counseling. Likewise, I don't believe so-called skill-less games like WoW are any less valid for their ease of use. The primary objective of gaming is deriving joy from the experience. If you get that from being the best sniper, fine, or completing Silver Surfer on the NES, great. But I also think it's valid to enjoy achieving level 60 on WoW, despite it being really only a matter of patience. Enjoyment, and how to achieve it, varies from person to person, and there is no one right way.
As to the question of the completely automated WoW: I would most certainly play it, if I derived enjoyment from it. I don't enjoy WoW as it is now, so I'd not like it any more or less were it automated. But that's just my perspective: others may derive enjoyment from their ability to show their loot to other people, some may enjoy beating people in the PVP areas and bragging about it later. They would most likely find it a hollow experience to play in a game where they are the only human being. But since I don't play video games for the interaction with other people, it wouldn't affect me one little bit.
This is what I have been dreaming of since I started playing video games.
To think that there would be a living environment in a game completely indistinguishable of living entities to support it...
Hell yes I would play it. This is the Holy Grail for me in terms of video games.
Sounds good. Sign me up. I don't care if the people are real. I won't "talk" to you anyway. If I can't distinguish and the game is fun then it sounds great.
I agree the monthly fee is the sucky part. I've never played it but it is quite obviously addictive and a subscription fee just screams of taking money from the suckers. The game still costs you $50 (well it does here) and a 60 day card is $40, so to play it for 2 months you pay $90 which is the price of a brand new game that you could keep forever.
The argument boils down to to philosophy now. I do not disagree that WoW is fun. Of course it's fun, or you wouldn't be playing it. Heck, I'd probably have fun playing it. I believe, however, that just because something is fun does not mean it is a worthwhile expenditure of time.
The philosophy I hold is that why something is fun matters a great deal. Most things that are fun have to do with survival. I really think that one of the main reasons humans are so successful is that we evolved a trait which gives us good feelings when we participate in pro-survival activities. Eating is fun, escaping danger is fun, learning is fun, acquiring goods and services is fun, hunting is fun, gardening is fun, creating things is fun and sex is fun. There are other things that are fun for wrong reasons, like doing drugs.
You only have a finite amount of time to live on this earth. I value my time alive more than almost anything else. I also believe that I should spend all of my time on this earth doing something that is in some way beneficial to myself, others or human society as a whole. My entire life, until the moment I die, will be a constant march towards a better world.
I think it would be unreasonable to demand that everyone spend absolutely all of their time benefiting the world at maximum efficiency. However, I do not think it unreasonable to expect people to always be doing something that helps in at least the tiniest way. At least I should be permitted to expect people to not make things worse. I think it is fair to expect from others what I have personally accomplished.
People always think it's crazy how Rym and I produce four podcasts a week and still do all these other things. Well, here is part of the answer. Neither of us spends a single waking moment doing anything that isn't useful in some way. Sometimes we perform tasks that are simply means to an end like driving, shopping, or communicating. We do those things as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to maximize the amount of time we have to do things that are more directly useful.
My discouragement of others playing MMORPGs is an attempt to help others become more awesome. Playing MMORPGs is not as harmful as doing drugs, far from it. However, MMO play does indeed cause a small amount of harm, and all of its benefits are insignificant. If you are content knowing that you are wasting precious time, so be it. If you do not agree that the playing of modern MMORPGS is, for the most part, a complete waste of time, I still have some work to do.
What a specious argument! Are you seriously trying to say that all the hours and hours of video games you've played over the years have somehow contributed to making a better world? I doubt many people would make such a bold claim, mostly because it's bulls(slap)hit. Almost all games are designed purely for the entertainment of the player. Believing anything else is a delusion. It's the height of fantasy to claim that the games you like are in some way more worthy than the games others enjoy, which is, in essence, what you are saying above.
I applaud your ideals: it is a fine thing to want to make the world a better place. But claiming that the games you play are somehow more beneficial to humanity than World of Warcraft, is sadly wrong. Neither are, they are all just for entertainment, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
Now I must ask an important question, Scott: are you willing to give up all your gaming in order to spend that time directly making the world a better place?
Take in mind that we are just an insignificant part of a much greater community, not everything we do is going to change that not even if you find an alternative use of energy, or other great things the world needs. You and me are but as influential as a flea, we can't make the world a better place on a wide scale, we can only make our life better and if you want to make your life happier by living a fantasy life such as what an MMO does to you then be happy with that.
thaneofcawdor, again you didn't read exactly what I said. I used very specific words for a specific reason. Allow me to quote myself.
I also believe that I should spend all of my time on this earth doing something that is in some way beneficial to myself, others or human society as a whole.
Myself, others or human society. I didn't say that everything I do has to help everyone. Helping myself is ok also, as long as the total of the activity's effects are positive.
Think of it sort of like Tokimeki Memorial. For those of you who don't know, it's a Japanese high school/dating simulator. In it you choose different actions to perform each day. Depending on what actions you choose, various personal statistics are positively or negatively affected. Studying makes you tired, but smarter. Painting makes you happy and more artistic. If Tokimeki Memorial had the option of playing MMORPGs, it would keep your happiness steady, but decrease many other statistics significantly. Meaningful games might increase intelligence, ahtleticism(DDR), artistic ability or more.
thaneofcawdor, again you didn't read exactly what I said. I used very specific words for a specific reason. Allow me to quote myself.I also believe that I should spend all of my time on this earth doing something that is in some way beneficial to myself, others or human society as a whole.
Myself, others or human society. I didn't say that everything I do has to help everyone. Helping myself is ok also, as long as the total of the activity's effects are positive. Then how do you reconcile the above with this statement:
I think it would be unreasonable to demand that everyone spend absolutely all of their time benefiting the world at maximum efficiency. However, I do not think it unreasonable to expect people to always be doing something that helps in at least the tiniest way.
(emphasis mine) How does video gaming help anyone, including yourself, in even the tiniest way, unless you agree with me that enjoyment is a valid, beneficial reason for playing games?
Think of it sort of like Tokimeki Memorial. For those of you who don't know, it's a Japanese high school/dating simulator. In it you choose different actions to perform each day. Depending on what actions you choose, various personal statistics are positively or negatively affected. Studying makes you tired, but smarter. Painting makes you happy and more artistic. If Tokimeki Memorial had the option of playing MMORPGs, it would keep your happiness steady, but decrease many other statistics significantly. Meaningful games might increase intelligence, ahtleticism(DDR), artistic ability or more.
Come on! That's purely your opinion, as yet unsupported by any evidence. And how does a non-MMORPG game you've played, Mario Kart for example, add to your intelligence, athleticism or artistic ability, or any other real skill? It doesn't. Playing Mario Kart only makes you better at Mario Kart, which does not make the world even slightly better a place. It is purely for your enjoyment, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. MMORPGs are just as valid a pastime as any other game because they are enjoyable, and enjoyment is just as valid a reason as any for playing games. To think otherwise is a convenient illusion which serves neither you or your argument.
ok, I'll finally attempt to make a point that I was trying to make before the computer ate my post.
So lets say that providing someone else entertainment is a form of helping the world(or other people) in a small way. Therefore when you hang out as a group and you all have a good time you are helping make others lives better in some way just as the rest of the group is doing the same thing. Therefore, playing a MMORPG with a group of people is of higher value then playing a single player game for entertainment purposes because as you play you serve to enrich the entertainment of others who are also playing the game. Therefore a MMORPG with it's social level is a superior game for society then a single player game because it serves to engage a section of society that doesn't like to socialize in other ways and serves to give a large group of people (in the case of WoW) sometime that brings them together. (NEWSBREAK: WoW ends racism ^_^)
I know some of my friends around here have met their current girlfriends (and cute ones at that) playing MMORPG where as their social skillz would not be sufficient in real life for them to strike up a conversation. Funny enough because the one met his current girlfriend on the game he's quit the games and now uses his free time reading books and thinking about the world, but without having first played the MMORPG and finding a mate for himself and piece of mind, he may not have come around to this.
Honestly, I play WoW, to play with friends, If we all started a server for some FPS like counterstrike or action quake or something, I'd be playing that. If people were around to play party games on my gamecube I'd be playing that, but when they are not and I need some social gaming fix, I play WoW.
Truely, MMORPG's are only dangerous to you if you obsess over them.
If, at any point, you stay home to play WoW, or any multiplayer game for that matter, in lieu of hanging out with friends, then you deserve to be shot.
Like any other game, or any activity, as long as it doesn't dominate your life, it's all good.
I think it would be unreasonable to demand that everyone spend absolutely all of their time benefiting the world at maximum efficiency. However, I do not think it unreasonable to expect people to always be doing something that helps in at least the tiniest way. At least I should be permitted to expect people to not make things worse. I think it is fair to expect from others what I have personally accomplished.
While I almost could agree with you, I have to say that no matter what, it is unreasonable to expect a person to spend their free time in a particular way. It's their free time, and so long as whatever they're doing isn't illegal, or is only harmful to themselves, then if they find it to be enjoyable you cannot expect them to do anything otherwise. I'd love it if everyone were working toward improving the people around them, but that is simply unrealistic, and you can't expect that of people.
In response to Rym (and now Rubin's revision) hypothetical:
I would play the game for a month or two. About as long as any one-player game. I'd go abck to it and play it occasionally even after the intial playtime as well.
For me, WoW is a game that draws me in with gameplayer, it is fun to play. But once I got to 60 (the current levellimit) I wouldn't play as much in the hypothetical version. At the endgame of WoW, what keep me coming back to a lvl 60 character is the conquering challenges (raids & instances) with my friends. Working together with other people to achieve goals is something I fundamentally enjoy.
In short: what's kept me playing for WoW for so long is the actual people I interract with. The hypothetical simulation would likely get as much play as any other of my RPGs in my collection. I'd dust it off every few months and have fun with it, but wouldn't be consistently playing it for months/years at a time.
With all this said, when 2007 rolls around I can see myself having a debate of what I enjoy more. The expansion for WoW will come out by then, and I'll have fun exploring new content with friends. However, at the end of this year (most like October) I'll be using the money I'm earning from my job to buy a car. A sports car (most likely 240sx or an Impreza). This means I'll be spending time having fun learning how to be a performance driver, and taking care of and tuning my car. I can easily see WoW fading out of my life in the spring of 2007 as amateur driving events kick into gear (no pun intended) and I concentrate more and more on driving and tuning.
WoW is an incredibly boring game that's honed to perfection, that is, it is the most perfect implementation of a Skinner box that exists in gaming today. It uses a variety of reinforcements, but at the high ends of the game, only variable interval reinforcement is used, similar to that on what gambling is based on.
The reason why we start certain behaviours and why we continue them need not be related. We may start to play WoW at the start because it is indeed fun, while the reward/effort payoff is high, but we may continue to play for different reasons, such as not wanting to let our friends down.
This is probably the crux of Rym's argument. I believe many people continue to play WoW because they don't want to let down 39 other people when they miss out on a raid, some of whom may be their real life friends and give them real life repercussions. If WoW was a single player game only, you would not have such an attachment to the avatars in the game, and there would be zero cost for you to leave the game.
This is what has happened to me. Currently, all of my friends are playing WoW. They have socially withdrawn themselves in order to play this game, and so have I. I can not quit this game, because WoW is the only way to talk to my friends right now.
Geees, man if all your friends play WoW and you feel "forced" to play, Make some new friends! that actually go out and do stuff, you'll still have time to play some WoW with your friends but you won't have lost your social life as well!
It's not forced, that's the thing with conditioning, it's completely voluntary. After a while, the subject just wants to push the food-pellet button because the act of pushing the food-pellet button feels good in and of itself.
The only good thing about WoW, is that since instances are reset only every so often, I have to wait about a week for a reattempt. This gives me time to explore other games. I'm currently also playing Loco Roco and The Ship.
I am new to this forum, so I thought I would offer my perspective as a fellow WoW player. WoW is not a skill-based game. How much you achieve in the game is a direct function of how much time you invest in the game. There is really no way around the time investment unless you buy gold, powerlevelling, etc. from one of the on-line services available. I fully acknowledge that WoW does not require skill but I still like to play. I have a busy job and a family and sometimes I just need something brainless that I can do to decompress. Its just a distraction. It does not enhance your social skills, problem solving or your ability to work with others. If you want to improve in those areas, just go back to real life for a while.
I am a WoW player and I can not say I agree with the time vs skill argument. I believe the game takes a little of both, because if you take two people and have them play the same type of character for the same time duration there is pretty much no garuntee they will be at the same level. In fact I faced that same scenario with one of my roomates. Everyone else I knew had the game since at least BETA and she got the game months later. She played less than we did yet she excelled at the game and leveled at a much faster rate than we did. She did not buy gold, farm, etc. she was simply just that good. If you don't believe me there are other people on this forum that can atest to Hyewon's insane playing powers. On another note this was also her very first MMO so she didn't tyrain anywhere else there was not extra knowledge involved. I believe it was a mix of skill and timing on her part that go ther where she was.
I am a WoW player and I can not say I agree with the time vs skill argument. I believe the game takes a little of both, because if you take two people and have them play the same type of character for the same time duration there is pretty much no garuntee they will be at the same level. In fact I faced that same scenario with one of my roomates. Everyone else I knew had the game since at least BETA and she got the game months later. She played less than we did yet she excelled at the game and leveled at a much faster rate than we did. She did not buy gold, farm, etc. she was simply just that good. If you don't believe me there are other people on this forum that can atest to Hyewon's insane playing powers. On another note this was also her very first MMO so she didn't tyrain anywhere else there was not extra knowledge involved. I believe it was a mix of skill and timing on her part that go ther where she was.
It's not skill. It's an illusion of skill. Your friend really only has more knowledge than you do, not more skill. It's a game theory thing, and we have failed to explain it in this thread.
I disagree because as I stated this is her first MMO therefor she had no prior knowledge. Thus she had no knowledge of the game until she played it. I played for months before her, therefore I had more knowledeg of the game then her. She was simply better. She didn't sit down to ask us the rules or how to play, nor did she spend hours reading strategy guides or online forums. Those are not her thing. Instead she simply jumped in and started playing. That to me is not knowledge but skill. Maybe I define knowledge differently than you do, but I would not call that "having more knowledge."
Comments
What I am saying is that it does matter what the game is, in that it has to be fun by itself. Playing with friends adds to the experience to make it better, and worthwhile to play for a longer term then if it was single player.
Yes, Admiral Akbar, it was a trap.
(I just wanted to throw Turing and the UV in there since we're talking about perfect AI)
Yes, that is a game I would play, and furthermore, any multiplayer game to which this was done would see the exact same amount of play. Thus, yes, I would play WoW on the merits of the game and associated experience alone. However, you'll note that you MUST replicate the multiplayer experience, since quite a bit of the game revolves around, and in fact requires, interaction with other players. Of course, our hypothetical scenario assumes that, but I'm just emphasizing it here; you must be able to interact with other entities in order for WoW to work at all.
Now, the question I have is: what is the point of that question? I mean, if the world were actually the Matrix, for example, I'd love to be able to break out; however, the reality is that a perfect deception like that is, well, perfect, and so is effectively indistinguishable from reality.
I don't believe in the value of building skills in games - if you think being the best sniper in Battlefield 2 means anything, you need serious counseling. Likewise, I don't believe so-called skill-less games like WoW are any less valid for their ease of use. The primary objective of gaming is deriving joy from the experience. If you get that from being the best sniper, fine, or completing Silver Surfer on the NES, great. But I also think it's valid to enjoy achieving level 60 on WoW, despite it being really only a matter of patience. Enjoyment, and how to achieve it, varies from person to person, and there is no one right way.
As to the question of the completely automated WoW: I would most certainly play it, if I derived enjoyment from it. I don't enjoy WoW as it is now, so I'd not like it any more or less were it automated. But that's just my perspective: others may derive enjoyment from their ability to show their loot to other people, some may enjoy beating people in the PVP areas and bragging about it later. They would most likely find it a hollow experience to play in a game where they are the only human being. But since I don't play video games for the interaction with other people, it wouldn't affect me one little bit.
This is what I have been dreaming of since I started playing video games.
To think that there would be a living environment in a game completely indistinguishable of living entities to support it...
Hell yes I would play it. This is the Holy Grail for me in terms of video games.
Sounds good. Sign me up. I don't care if the people are real. I won't "talk" to you anyway. If I can't distinguish and the game is fun then it sounds great.
The main thing for me is the subscription fee....
The philosophy I hold is that why something is fun matters a great deal. Most things that are fun have to do with survival. I really think that one of the main reasons humans are so successful is that we evolved a trait which gives us good feelings when we participate in pro-survival activities. Eating is fun, escaping danger is fun, learning is fun, acquiring goods and services is fun, hunting is fun, gardening is fun, creating things is fun and sex is fun. There are other things that are fun for wrong reasons, like doing drugs.
You only have a finite amount of time to live on this earth. I value my time alive more than almost anything else. I also believe that I should spend all of my time on this earth doing something that is in some way beneficial to myself, others or human society as a whole. My entire life, until the moment I die, will be a constant march towards a better world.
I think it would be unreasonable to demand that everyone spend absolutely all of their time benefiting the world at maximum efficiency. However, I do not think it unreasonable to expect people to always be doing something that helps in at least the tiniest way. At least I should be permitted to expect people to not make things worse. I think it is fair to expect from others what I have personally accomplished.
People always think it's crazy how Rym and I produce four podcasts a week and still do all these other things. Well, here is part of the answer. Neither of us spends a single waking moment doing anything that isn't useful in some way. Sometimes we perform tasks that are simply means to an end like driving, shopping, or communicating. We do those things as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to maximize the amount of time we have to do things that are more directly useful.
My discouragement of others playing MMORPGs is an attempt to help others become more awesome. Playing MMORPGs is not as harmful as doing drugs, far from it. However, MMO play does indeed cause a small amount of harm, and all of its benefits are insignificant. If you are content knowing that you are wasting precious time, so be it. If you do not agree that the playing of modern MMORPGS is, for the most part, a complete waste of time, I still have some work to do.
I applaud your ideals: it is a fine thing to want to make the world a better place. But claiming that the games you play are somehow more beneficial to humanity than World of Warcraft, is sadly wrong. Neither are, they are all just for entertainment, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
Now I must ask an important question, Scott: are you willing to give up all your gaming in order to spend that time directly making the world a better place?
Think of it sort of like Tokimeki Memorial. For those of you who don't know, it's a Japanese high school/dating simulator. In it you choose different actions to perform each day. Depending on what actions you choose, various personal statistics are positively or negatively affected. Studying makes you tired, but smarter. Painting makes you happy and more artistic. If Tokimeki Memorial had the option of playing MMORPGs, it would keep your happiness steady, but decrease many other statistics significantly. Meaningful games might increase intelligence, ahtleticism(DDR), artistic ability or more.
I admit it, I lost.
Side note: there's a free MMORPG called flyff on gpotato.
Then how do you reconcile the above with this statement: (emphasis mine) How does video gaming help anyone, including yourself, in even the tiniest way, unless you agree with me that enjoyment is a valid, beneficial reason for playing games? Come on! That's purely your opinion, as yet unsupported by any evidence. And how does a non-MMORPG game you've played, Mario Kart for example, add to your intelligence, athleticism or artistic ability, or any other real skill? It doesn't. Playing Mario Kart only makes you better at Mario Kart, which does not make the world even slightly better a place. It is purely for your enjoyment, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. MMORPGs are just as valid a pastime as any other game because they are enjoyable, and enjoyment is just as valid a reason as any for playing games. To think otherwise is a convenient illusion which serves neither you or your argument.
So lets say that providing someone else entertainment is a form of helping the world(or other people) in a small way. Therefore when you hang out as a group and you all have a good time you are helping make others lives better in some way just as the rest of the group is doing the same thing. Therefore, playing a MMORPG with a group of people is of higher value then playing a single player game for entertainment purposes because as you play you serve to enrich the entertainment of others who are also playing the game. Therefore a MMORPG with it's social level is a superior game for society then a single player game because it serves to engage a section of society that doesn't like to socialize in other ways and serves to give a large group of people (in the case of WoW) sometime that brings them together. (NEWSBREAK: WoW ends racism ^_^)
I know some of my friends around here have met their current girlfriends (and cute ones at that) playing MMORPG where as their social skillz would not be sufficient in real life for them to strike up a conversation. Funny enough because the one met his current girlfriend on the game he's quit the games and now uses his free time reading books and thinking about the world, but without having first played the MMORPG and finding a mate for himself and piece of mind, he may not have come around to this.
Honestly, I play WoW, to play with friends, If we all started a server for some FPS like counterstrike or action quake or something, I'd be playing that. If people were around to play party games on my gamecube I'd be playing that, but when they are not and I need some social gaming fix, I play WoW.
Truely, MMORPG's are only dangerous to you if you obsess over them.
If, at any point, you stay home to play WoW, or any multiplayer game for that matter, in lieu of hanging out with friends, then you deserve to be shot.
Like any other game, or any activity, as long as it doesn't dominate your life, it's all good.
I would play the game for a month or two. About as long as any one-player game. I'd go abck to it and play it occasionally even after the intial playtime as well.
For me, WoW is a game that draws me in with gameplayer, it is fun to play. But once I got to 60 (the current levellimit) I wouldn't play as much in the hypothetical version. At the endgame of WoW, what keep me coming back to a lvl 60 character is the conquering challenges (raids & instances) with my friends. Working together with other people to achieve goals is something I fundamentally enjoy.
In short: what's kept me playing for WoW for so long is the actual people I interract with. The hypothetical simulation would likely get as much play as any other of my RPGs in my collection. I'd dust it off every few months and have fun with it, but wouldn't be consistently playing it for months/years at a time.
With all this said, when 2007 rolls around I can see myself having a debate of what I enjoy more. The expansion for WoW will come out by then, and I'll have fun exploring new content with friends.
However, at the end of this year (most like October) I'll be using the money I'm earning from my job to buy a car. A sports car (most likely 240sx or an Impreza). This means I'll be spending time having fun learning how to be a performance driver, and taking care of and tuning my car. I can easily see WoW fading out of my life in the spring of 2007 as amateur driving events kick into gear (no pun intended) and I concentrate more and more on driving and tuning.
WoW is an incredibly boring game that's honed to perfection, that is, it is the most perfect implementation of a Skinner box that exists in gaming today. It uses a variety of reinforcements, but at the high ends of the game, only variable interval reinforcement is used, similar to that on what gambling is based on.
The reason why we start certain behaviours and why we continue them need not be related. We may start to play WoW at the start because it is indeed fun, while the reward/effort payoff is high, but we may continue to play for different reasons, such as not wanting to let our friends down.
This is probably the crux of Rym's argument. I believe many people continue to play WoW because they don't want to let down 39 other people when they miss out on a raid, some of whom may be their real life friends and give them real life repercussions. If WoW was a single player game only, you would not have such an attachment to the avatars in the game, and there would be zero cost for you to leave the game.
This is what has happened to me. Currently, all of my friends are playing WoW. They have socially withdrawn themselves in order to play this game, and so have I. I can not quit this game, because WoW is the only way to talk to my friends right now.
I'm ZNemesis, and I'm a WoW addict.
The only good thing about WoW, is that since instances are reset only every so often, I have to wait about a week for a reattempt. This gives me time to explore other games. I'm currently also playing Loco Roco and The Ship.