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Safety of Plastics

AprecheApreche
edited March 2009 in Everything Else
You've all probably seen lots of news stories about Bisphenol A. Most recently, baby bottle manufacturers have decided to stop using it. At work we have "the red cups" and I was reusing one for the water cooler. Someone at work told me they saw a study that says it is not safe to reuse ones with higher recycling numbers, but safe to reuse ones with lower numbers. I asked for the study, but they couldn't provide it. I tried going on Google and PubMed to find scientific studies one way or the other, but came up empty handed.

What should we make of all this? Clearly if chemicals from plastics are leeching into food and beverages, there could be serious health risks associated with that. Even if that risk is an unknown, maybe using glass is a better idea just in case? I've been using a Nalgene and also plastic cups, and bottles for a very long time. If I've already been harmed by that, should I do something? What if it's all just more fear mongering by hippie types?

I really want to hear something on this issue from some scientists I can trust. Right now, it's a bunch of FUD, and it's not good.

Comments

  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    edited March 2009
    Most manufacturers these days prefer to err on the side of caution. It's not worth it for anyone to even take a slight risk of killing babies with their product, as brand damage hurts infinitely more than a recall.

    I do know a bunch of food chemists, though. I can ask around and see what people think.

    EDIT: I'll also say that pretty much any particulate matter is a potential carcinogen. If plastic particles are leaching into water, it's going to give cancer to somebody somewhere. This is true of pretty much everything.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • AprecheApreche
    edited March 2009

    EDIT: I'll also say that pretty much any particulate matter is a potential carcinogen. If plastic particles are leaching into water, it's going to give cancer to somebody somewhere. This is true of pretty much everything.
    Well, I mean even if you use paper or glass there are still potential health problems. Bleach, dye, or whatever other chemicals in the paper can get in the beverage. Also, reusing any container, even if you wash it, could have some bacterias growing in there.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • gomidoggomidog
    edited March 2009
    What if it's all just more fear mongering by hippie types?
    Man, remember when I brought this up way back? I read an article about these chemicals and how they react like synthetic estrogen. I remember I got all freaked out by it when I realized I had been using my free NYU Nalgene bottle for hot barley tea. You and Rym ignored me.

    I guess I've always been more wary of using plastics to heat food and stuff. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I prefer glass because of this, and also because of the oil used in producing plastic. That said, I have reusable plastic cups and spoons at my house. I'm not going to worry too much.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • Kate MonsterKate Monster
    I use Sigg bottles. They are cute, well made, have convenient cap options, and avoid the environmental and health issues of plastics.
  • AprecheApreche
    Man, remember when I brought this up way back? I read an article about these chemicals and how they react like synthetic estrogen. I remember I got all freaked out by it when I realized I had been using my free NYU Nalgene bottle for hot barley tea. You and Rym ignored me.
    Nalgene is primarily a maker of scientific lab-wares. I remember them saying that while some of their stuff contains the bisphenol-A that their products are safe as long as they aren't scratched or broken. I don't know if the same can be said for the red cups or whatever.
  • gomidoggomidog
    edited March 2009
    products are safe as long as they aren't scratched or broken
    Or used above a certain temperature. Also, my bottle was a Nalgene-like bottle, but I am not sure if it was made by nalgene.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • NuriNuri
    I have a handmade clay mug that I keep at my desk. I only use it for water, and I just refill it over and over. Saves me from worrying about chemicals and doesn't generate tons of trash.

    I would be dubious about the phrase "isn't safe." What level of toxicity are we talking? In a group of 1,000,000 people who used these cups every day for 30 years, how many of them were harmed from exposure? There are so many things that we come into contact with every day that I doubt limiting this one thing will have much of an impact.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    edited March 2009
    I have a handmade clay mug that I keep at my desk. I only use it for water, and I just refill it over and over. Saves me from worrying about chemicals and doesn't generate tons of trash.

    I would be dubious about the phrase "isn't safe." What level of toxicity are we talking? In a group of 1,000,000 people who used these cups every day for 30 years, how many of them were harmed from exposure? There are so many things that we come into contact with every day that I doubt limiting this one thing will have much of an impact.
    To be honest, there are large gaps in toxicity data for food contaminants. A lot of it comes from the conventional wisdom stating "If it hasn't hurt anybody yet, why worry about it?" I can give a couple of examples, one from the microbiological perspective and one from the chemistry perspective.

    First, microbiology: This is old data, but it's still relevant today. I don't feel like parsing CDC data right now. Anyhow, this was a groundbreaking paper published nearly a decade ago, that estimates there are roughly 76 million cases of foodborne disease annually in the US every year, and 5,000 deaths from said illnesses. Of those, 14 million illnesses and 1,800 deaths are attributed to known agents.

    That's right. We can only explain the cause of approximately 1/5th of all foodborne illness and only about 1/3rd of deaths from those illnesses. Everything else is caused by unknown etiological agents.

    Think about that. High-profile recalls? That's based on knowing about less than 1/5th of the causal agents of foodborne illnesses out there. Think about how things could operate if we know 2/5ths of the causal agents. Or 100%, for that matter.

    On the chemistry side of things, we once analyzed some chicken jerky dog treats and found them to be contaminated with uranium at about 10 ppb (parts per billion: about 10 micrograms of uranium per kilogram of food). This is pretty well above the normal rate of uranium contamination in dog food (which mostly occurs because of contamination with soil: normal soil is about 300 ppb uranium). We couldn't take any action because there are no established guidelines for uranium toxicity in dog food.

    The fact is that we simply don't know many of the long-term effects of a lot of things we interact with on a daily basis, and we really won't until we collect enough data to establish links.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • AprecheApreche
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
  • DkongDkong
    edited March 2009
    What if it's all just more fear mongering by hippie types?
    I agree with this and use this point as my argument:
    There are so many things that we come into contact with every day that I doubt limiting this one thing will have much of an impact.
    I mean, I get worried when stories come out about stuff that will actually fuck your shit like mercury and lead, but when it's just yet ANOTHER chemical that harmed a few people, I think it's not that big of a deal.
    Post edited by Dkong on
  • gomidoggomidog
    edited March 2009
    I have a handmade clay mug that I keep at my desk. I only use it for water, and I just refill it over and over. Saves me from worrying about chemicals and doesn't generate tons of trash.
    Me too.
    I mean, I get worried when stories come out about stuff that will actually fuck your shit like mercury and lead, but when it's just yet ANOTHER chemical that harmed a few people, I think it's not that big of a deal.
    Yeah, but the chemical, like I said, is being studied for its effects on the endocrine system. What if it messed up your hormones and gave you breast cancer?

    I mean, if people had said the same thing about mercury and lead back at the turn of the century when they were in all sorts of toys and products and stuff, you wouldn't be safe from them today. Rather than ignore the possible hazardous effects of the chemical, I think its worth taking a closer look.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • MrRobotoMrRoboto
    I have a handmade clay mug that I keep at my desk. I only use it for water, and I just refill it over and over. Saves me from worrying about chemicals and doesn't generate tons of trash.
    Are you sure the glaze or paint used for finish isn't toxic after years of use? or that the clay didn't have a chemical that has been seeping into your water?

    I just stopped worrying a long time ago.
  • gomidoggomidog
    Are you sure the glaze or paint used for finish isn't toxic after years of use? or that the clay didn't have a chemical that has been seeping into your water?
    Actually, from what I understand, glazes have to be foodsafe, otherwise it is illegal to sell the pottery without a sticker or warning that says "for decorative use only." I suppose if the clay is poisoned, that would be random, like my food being tainted or something. Nothing I could have done. With the plastics, we are discussing a chemical that is inherent in the manufacturing of the product, not some chance occurrence that happened to cause harm. That's kind of like saying "your milk may have melamine in it." Most milk does not, so I'm going to assume it's safe.
  • AprecheApreche
    I just stopped worrying a long time ago.
    I think that is one thing I have to agree with. Worrying about this kind of thing is likely take more years and quality off of your life than the actual chemical danger of reusing a plastic cup.
  • gomidoggomidog
    ...Yeah, I suppose, but I still don't like thinking about the fact that I put boiling water in a possible poison cup. It bothers me, like thinking I ate something bad.

    Of course, look who you're talking to. I'm a hereditary worrier, and I stress about all sorts of weird things. Just because something bothers me doesn't mean it should be a universal worry. You're right, even if the chemical is harmful there are probably only trace amounts and you are probably fine.
  • MrRobotoMrRoboto
    Are you sure the glaze or paint used for finish isn't toxic after years of use? or that the clay didn't have a chemical that has been seeping into your water?
    Actually, from what I understand, glazes have to be foodsafe, otherwise it is illegal to sell the pottery without a sticker or warning that says "for decorative use only." I suppose if the clay is poisoned, that would be random, like my food being tainted or something. Nothing I could have done. With the plastics, we are discussing a chemical that is inherent in the manufacturing of the product, not some chance occurrence that happened to cause harm. That's kind of like saying "your milk may have melamine in it." Most milk does not, so I'm going to assume it's safe.
    Yes, that same plastic was foodsafe
  • RymRym
    It bothers me, like thinking I ate something bad.
    Mind is often worse than matter. I remember I once drank some orange juice that I realized a few seconds later was definitely BAD. I felt woozy all day, even though physically I was fine, just for the thought of it.
  • gomidoggomidog
    edited March 2009

    Yes, that same plastic was foodsafe
    And now they are re-evaluating whether it actually is.
    You know, this happens with pottery too. Ever hear of fiesta ware?

    (from wikipedia)
    Brilliant Red Fiesta

    Brilliant red Fiesta (and indeed the red glazes produced by all U.S. potteries of the era) is known for having a detectable amount of uranium oxide in its glaze to produce the bright orange-red color. During WWII the government took control of uranium. Homer Laughlin and the other potteries had to discontinue the use of uranium-containing glazes. Fiesta red was discontinued before 1944, because all uranium was controlled by the U.S. government while developing the Manhattan Project. Vintage red Fiesta plates are more radioactive (but not necessarily harmful) than other radioactive house wares, such as uranium glass. The radiation level is so low that most dinnerware collectors aren't concerned about it. Fiesta red was reintroduced in 1959, when the Atomic Energy Commission released its restrictions on uranium oxide. Having an X-ray conducted once causes much greater radiation damage than using such china over a prolonged period. At present, government and third-party studies have concluded that all widely-distributed, uranium-containing consumer china (Fiesta and others) is safe for food consumption, but not recommended for food storage due to the possibility of leaching of uranium or other heavy metals (often present in some colored glazes) into food, especially acidic foods.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • Dr. TimoDr. Timo
    Democracy Now! had a nice section where they talk about the problem that the US has with lobbyists for the chemicals industry. The lax regulations they lobby for make US products crappy and dangerous. The upside is that when the same companies try to sell, e.g., lipstick with lead in it in Europe they get rejected and the resulting official reports on the hazards are public.

    I just checked that the Video doesn't seem to work but there is an mp3 download and the section in question starts at 27:35.
  • RymRym
    Brilliant red Fiesta
    My mom collected Fiestaware for some time. (She collected mineral samples and fossils in general, and this was an interesting example to bring out when lecturing).
  • Loganator456Loganator456
    It bothers me, like thinking I ate something bad.
    Mind is often worse than matter. I remember I once drank some orange juice that I realized a few seconds later was definitely BAD. I felt woozy all day, even though physically I was fine, just for the thought of it.
    I do this also, but extends into everything, not just eating. For instance, if I grab on to something that I may think is really nasty (even though it may not be), it'll really bug me until I wash my hands.
  • HMTKSteveHMTKSteve
    As a related point of interest. When something plastic says "not microwave safe" Is that just because of melting or is their also an issue of chemical contamination if it is nuked with food?
  • MrRobotoMrRoboto
    As a related point of interest. When something plastic says "not microwave safe" Is that just because of melting or is their also an issue of chemical contamination if it is nuked with food?
    Mostly melting, I've placed some containers that I thought were microwave safe, needless to say, the food was uneatable.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked some magic science. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
  • HMTKSteveHMTKSteve
    edited March 2009
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked somemagicscience. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
    Spectrum Analysis or something similar?
    Post edited by HMTKSteve on
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked somemagicscience. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
    Spectrum Analysisor something similar?
    Something like that. I honestly have no idea. They do their thing, and I do my thing.
  • ninjarabbininjarabbi
    And now they are re-evaluating whether it actually is.
    You know, this happens with pottery too. Ever hear of fiesta ware?
    My mom collects fiestaware and has quite a few of the uranium-containing dishes. I'm not to worried though since we don't really use the old ones, so they don't get broken.
  • ChurbaChurba
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked somemagicscience. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
    Spectrum Analysisor something similar?
    Err, speaking of that, I put a Nalgene bottle in my anti-mass spectrometer, powered it up to 105%, and now there's a creepy dude in a suit in my kitchen...
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked somemagicscience. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
    Spectrum Analysisor something similar?
    Err, speaking of that, I put a Nalgene bottle in my anti-mass spectrometer, powered it up to 105%, and now there's a creepy dude in a suit in my kitchen...
    Take him up on his offer. You'll regret it otherwise.
  • ChurbaChurba
    How did you now about the uranium? Do you pass all the food under a geiger counter?
    The chemistry people worked somemagicscience. They can basically grind a food and figure out its chemical composition. I have no idea how they do it, but it's pretty freakin' cool.
    Spectrum Analysisor something similar?
    Err, speaking of that, I put a Nalgene bottle in my anti-mass spectrometer, powered it up to 105%, and now there's a creepy dude in a suit in my kitchen...
    Take him up on his offer. You'll regret it otherwise.
    He says he has a job for me, I think there's some travel involved. What the hell, yeah?
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