See, God wants us to go to Heaven. But sin gets in the way of that. In the times before Jesus, there was no effective way of forgiveness.
So why didn't he send Jesus down earlier? What, did he just stand up there in heaven with his arms crossed in indifference for 100,000 years?
Admittedly, I have no answer to this. I don't understand that and I wonder myself. But if that point ruins the whole argument for you, then you sir, are a nitpicker. God did provide forgiveness for lots of souls of people who died before Jesus came, as it says in the New Testament, so it's not like all of those people got ripped off. God's logic is above ours, so we can't comprehend everything he does. You will twist this to say that it's just reasoning by people as to why there are holes in the Bible, but whatever, you can interpret it how you wish. That's honestly one of the points I make that bothers people the most. They don't want to feel like God is some mighty superior being who's better than them, they think that they then (wow, quintuple alliteration) can't relate to him, that he's some far off distant power.
I'm not making the age argument (and by the way, I figured you were between 15-20). Maybe I shouldn't have have mentioned it -- I just wanted to point out that I was in the same position as you when I was about the same age. I was actually a Christian until I was around 20 or 21 (it's hard to say exactly when I stopped being a Christian -- it was a very gradual process). In fact, strange as it may seem now, when I was EXACTLY your age, I was doing the same thing -- defending Christianity on forums (or technically, FIDOnet on BBSes, but I'm old). I made some of the same arguments you're making, and I believed that I had good, strong, valid reasons for believing in Christianity. A few years later, when some things had changed in my life, and I'd been confronted with some uncomfortable truths, I realized that, no, I really never had seriously questioned my beliefs -- I'd only looked for reasons to continue believing, and tried hard to ignore everything to the contrary.
Now, since you HAVE consciously chosen to be a Christian of your own accord, maybe you can answer a question for me -- I've never gotten a satisfying answer to this question, but I'd love to hear one. Why did you pick your particular religion? Why do you believe that your God is the real one, and all the other gods are fake?
The punishments he lays out in Leviticus should help, but humans sin so much that no one could keep up with all of that. Therefore, by putting harsher punishments on people for sinning, God hopes to make people sin less out of fear for punishment. This entire situation is then remedied when Jesus comes. You quoted the part of the Bible where Jesus claims to fulfill the Old Testament, not rewrite it. And that's what he does. God said he would send someone to save His people. That's what Jesus is fulfilling, and therefore not rewriting the law and allowing the Jewish people to get away with sinning, but rather giving them the forgiveness that they desired.
Man -- really sucks that all those people were so screwed before God thought up the whole Jesus thing. Would've been nice if he could've come up with that sooner, but he's only human, I guess.
So why didn't he send Jesus down earlier? What, did he just stand up there in heaven with his arms crossed in indifference for 100,000 years?
Dammit! This thread is going too fast! People keep posting stuff I wanna say before I get done typing it!
Admittedly, I have no answer to this. I don't understand that and I wonder myself. But if that point ruins the whole argument for you, then you sir, are a nitpicker.
I don't think that's nitpicky at all. I think it's VERY reasonable to wonder why a God who is all-knowing and all-powerful couldn't have seen that this was the right way to go from the beginning. And also -- why is that even the right way to go? Why did God have to torture his son to atone for the sins of humanity? He makes the rules, right? He could just as easily have allowed the sins of humanity to be atoned for without ANYONE having to be crucified. Apparently, he just did it because he wanted to. God has a very strange sense of justice.
God's logic is above ours, so we can't comprehend everything he does. You will twist this to say that it's just reasoning by people as to why there are holes in the Bible, but whatever, you can interpret it how you wish. That's honestly one of the points I make that bothers people the most. They don't want to feel like God is some mighty superior being who's better than them, they think that they then (wow, quintuple alliteration) can't relate to him, that he's some far off distant power.
Your god is a totalitarian dictator. We are born under a celestial dictatorship in which we had no hand to choose how we were governed. I am born sick, and then commanded to be well under punishment of eternal damnation. I am watched while I sleep and can be convicted of thought crime. And if I commit a right action, it's only to evade punishment from the eternal being. This is a god who promoted slavery and the complete destruction of cultures. We must simultaneously love and fear this being. Some logic.
I'm not making the age argument (and by the way, I figured you were between 15-20). Maybe I shouldn't have have mentioned it -- I just wanted to point out that I was in the same position as you when I was about the same age. I was actually a Christian until I was around 20 or 21 (it's hard to say exactly when I stopped being a Christian -- it was a very gradual process). In fact, strange as it may seem now, when I was EXACTLY your age, I was doing the same thing -- defending Christianity on forums (or technically,FIDOneton BBSes, but I'm old). I made some of the same arguments you're making, and I believed that I had good, strong, valid reasons for believing in Christianity. A few years later, when some things had changed in my life, and I'd been confronted with some uncomfortable truths, I realized that, no, I really never had seriously questioned my beliefs -- I'd only looked for reasons to continue believing, and tried hard to ignore everything to the contrary.
Now, since you HAVE consciously chosen to be a Christian of your own accord, maybe you can answer a question for me -- I've never gotten a satisfying answer to this question, but I'd love to hear one. Why did you pick your particular religion? Why do you believe that your God is the real one, and all the other gods are fake?
The punishments he lays out in Leviticus should help, but humans sin so much that no one could keep up with all of that. Therefore, by putting harsher punishments on people for sinning, God hopes to make people sin less out of fear for punishment. This entire situation is then remedied when Jesus comes. You quoted the part of the Bible where Jesus claims to fulfill the Old Testament, not rewrite it. And that's what he does. God said he would send someone to save His people. That's what Jesus is fulfilling, and therefore not rewriting the law and allowing the Jewish people to get away with sinning, but rather giving them the forgiveness that they desired.
Man -- really sucks that all those people were so screwed before God thought up the whole Jesus thing. Would've been nice if he could've come up with that sooner, but he's only human, I guess. I answered your last point in the post above yours. As to why I choose God instead of other religions...I'm gonna try and say this in a good way. Now, there are hundreds upon thousands of belief systems. I can eliminate a lot of them for a few reasons: 1. Some don't believe in a living God, rather trusting in statues and idols. I want a God that is real, not some object. 2. Others believe in spirits of the past, worshiping them (ancestor worship.) Why does someone become more powerful after they die? That's just illogical. 3. Still others believe that the power to change the world and decide your destiny comes from within, that it's based on YOU. I am a firm believer that humans do not have the spiritual power to shape their destiny, and that if the world is really determined by us, then it would be screwed up by now, because a lot of people have messed up values.
That leaves still a lot of religions. My father is actually Jewish, so I can actually attest to being exposed to multiple religions. Between Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism...They all seem good. But deep down, some of them still have inherent flaws. Buddhism and Hinduism are the easiest to point out. Both of them are based on people. Someone (in the first case, Buddha) magically achieves enlightenment and realizes all sorts of truths on his own. I don't believe that we as people have the individual ability to solve all of our problems, I feel that if that were true, people would be less screwed up, because a lot of people try really hard to fix their problems. Hinduism was similar, but added gods and goddesses to the mix. However, the gods and goddesses are more mythological in nature. You still solve problems yourself. Both of these, as well as Judaism and Islam, also raise another point. Punishments and/or rewards in the afterlife are determined by how good you are. So...How good is good? That's one of my biggest problems with all other religions that say that goodness gets you into heaven. Who decides what's good? What if you just had to do something bad sometimes? Humans naturally screw up. Therefore, only the few, righteous people who can ascend the evils of humanity get to ascend to Heaven, Nirvana, etc. But Christianity is actually different. You don't go to Heaven because you did good things. You go to Heaven because Jesus Christ died so that you could be forgiven for all of the bad things you'd done. It's the only one that provides a logical way to have your sins forgiven. Even some of the Jewish laws in the Old Testament made no sense. I understand why God might want us to sacrifice things to him, but why does cutting up a goat forgive our sins? Islam has similar values, that you follow this rule and that rule, do this then and that later, and then Allah will accept you. The New Testament isn't full of new rules to follow that will save you, it provides a concrete and loving way for you to be forgiven, that's based on loving your God, not fearing him and following his rules.
Okay, to both FunFetus and Andrew... The reason why we have to be forgiven like this is not because God is a totalitarian dictator. In fact, quite the opposite. He gave up his dictatorship over us by giving us free will (Which, by the way, is from Genesis, Andrew, not the Gospels). With free will, we learned to sin. Sin separates us from God. And because we chose to Sin, we can't be near God, who does not sin. While sin may seem like a concept to you, to a Christian and to God it is very real. It separates our soul from God, and makes it impossible to be near him. With all of the sin staining our soul, we can't be near him. God did provide forgiveness in some way, as I said, in the Old Testament. The old laws were supposed to help people be forgiven. But they don't work very well. Because if you have to slaughter an animal for every single bad thing you've done, this is gonna get ugly. No one could stay on top of it, not one could perfectly follow the old rules and punishments of the Old Testament. Therefore, God provided a new way for us to be forgiven, Jesus. Which I've already explained. God is not meant to be feared. We fear Sin and that it separates us from a loving God, not God Himself.
You seem to have a very arbitrary method for determining what's logical and illogical when talking about metaphysical things. Honestly, the idea that you get into heaven by believing in Jesus seems a lot LESS logical to me than getting into heaven by being a good person. By Christian standards, Ghandi is in hell but Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven. Is that fair? Logical? No. It absolutely is not. To me, it looks like you're just choosing all of the things you already believe as the "logical" thing, and dismissing everything else.
Why did God put the "old Jewish laws" in the Old Testament if they made no sense?
Why do you believe that your particular God even exists in the first place? What is there to make you believe that anything in the Bible is true, other than the very few things that can be established by historical evidence? (For instance, the Roman empire certainly existed. Jesus? Maybe not so much.)
He gave up his dictatorship over us by giving us free will
Total BS. In that case, God only downgraded his dictatorship to the level of any average, mirrored-sunglasses-military dictator, albeit one with omnipotent, omniscient magical powers. We have exactly as much free will as those in North Korea or Nazi Germany. Do whatever you want, but if we don't like it, we'll kill you. Or just torture you for eternity.
But they don't work very well. Because if you have to slaughter an animal for every single bad thing you've done, this is gonna get ugly.
Why didn't God know this wouldn't work out from the very beginning? I thought he was a smart guy.
God loves us. I think any real god would. Otherwise, why create us, and then give us free will? Love has to be involved, because nothing else seems to make sense as a reason to create life, and then give it the ability to hate you and defy you. If God loves us, then he wouldn't expect us to be perfect. Judaism and Islam have very high expectations of people. While, like you said, it may be more logical for only the best to go to Heaven, if God loves everyone, then that is NOT logical by His standards, since it excludes a vast majority of his loved ones. If God loves us, and therefore doesn't expect us to be perfect, the only religion that makes sense is one that provides something that anyone and everyone can choose to do, which, in Christianity's case, is to accept the forgiveness of Jesus. I believe in the religion that provides the most saving to everyone and anyone. Nothing you do can exclude you from asking for God's forgiveness and eternal Saving. Other religions do have things that can exclude you. I think everyone deserves God's forgiveness, because if he loves them, then they deserve it. And no, I'm not saying you should forgive Hitler. That's a different argument altogether. I'm talking about God's forgiveness, not human forgiveness. Very different.
P.S.-This is kinda random, but Ghandi did believe in multiple religions. He wasn't just a Hindu. He studied and took on parts of other religions to form his belief system. So he may very well have accepted the love of Christ. I don't know. As for this Jeffrey Dahmer fellow...If he was truly sorry, then Christ will forgive anyone. If he repented for his sins, then he deserves just as much as any other to go to Heaven. Those who don't deserve to go to Heaven by God's standards are those who sin and never seek forgiveness. Those people who sin and have no desire to be forgiven for it, they get to go to Hell.
Hmm, I thought we had a rule about arguing religion in this forum...something about a Flying Spaghetti Monster. OBVIOUSLY we cannot prove faith-based claims. That is why they are faith-based and not scientific-evidence-based. Also, by flinging quotes from the bible and asserting that a Christian should follow every word the Bible says, we are guilty of telling them to do one of the very things that we often ridicule. Perhaps a step back and a few deep breaths is in order? The evidence has been presented; harping on it is unlikely to help and is likely to elicit defensive responses, which are counter-productive.
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about discussion of that ad campaign?
Barring emotional reaction to the imagery, I simply find the ad problematic because it assumes that:
a) there is a God, and b) you cannot matter to anyone else if you do not matter to a God.
Even if there is no God, that doesn't change the fact that my mother loves me and I matter to her. Who are these people to say otherwise? Do they know all of my friends and family? Can they honestly say I matter to no one? I don't see what they could possibly accomplish with this ad.
As to why I choose God instead of other religions...I'm gonna try and say this in a good way. Now, there are hundreds upon thousands of belief systems. I can eliminate a lot of them for a few reasons: 1. Some don't believe in a living God, rather trusting in statues and idols. I want a God that is real, not some object. 2. Others believe in spirits of the past, worshiping them (ancestor worship.) Why does someone become more powerful after they die? That's just illogical. 3. Still others believe that the power to change the world and decide your destiny comes from within, that it's based on YOU. I am a firm believer that humans do not have the spiritual power to shape their destiny, and that if the world is really determined by us, then it would be screwed up by now, because a lot of people have messed up values.
Response to point "1": People don't believe in simple physical objects, the have faith in the spirit that that object represents (a god or goddess) or the spirit of that object (greater than the object itself or the "soul" of that object). Response to point "2": Ancestor worship doesn't state that individuals become "more powerful" when they die, simply that they believe that the dead have certain abilities (not necessarily more or less). Moreover, this "worship" usually has a great deal to do with honoring the dead, not worshiping them in the Western sense of that word. Also, you who claim to literally believe a book that was written by men and has been altered repeatedly (added to, subtracted from, edited, and poorly translated) is the word of an invisible all powerful God that controls our fate and allows us free will (a paradox) call their beliefs illogical? FAITH by its very nature is illogical. To attack another for their faith is an attack back at you. Response to point "3": First, you make the assumption that your socially designed values are somehow superior to any others. This is sheer hubris. A sin in your own faith. How can we trust your values when you flout them yourself? Second, what is spiritual power to change our destiny? Are you saying that God developed the A-Bomb or chocolate milk? Doesn't your own scripture say that God is going to royally fuck-up the Earth in this little thing call the rapture? Third, how do you define "screwed up"? Global warming, decreasing resources, weapons of mass destruction, etc. We have been able to change the world's destiny with our own actions negatively (and positively). How does your point hold any water? Has God stepped in and fixed the Ozone layer? Has God stepped in and stopped a war? No. Men and women decide what gets done and how it gets done. Fourth, your God gave Men free will, according to your faith. Doesn't that mean that Men can shape their own destinies?
Okay, I'm gonna make this even simpler. I hope. God loves us. I think any real god would. Otherwise, why create us, and then give us free will? Love has to be involved, because nothing else seems to make sense as a reason to create life, and then give it the ability to hate you and defy you.
Making it simpler won't help. Making it reasoned and consistent will. You're still just making assumptions. I don't think it makes ANY sense that God would create us out of "love". God created an entire race of people SPECIFICALLY for for the purpose of worshiping him. If you DON'T worship him, he TORTURES you in the WORST POSSIBLE WAY for ALL ETERNITY. He already murdered EVERYONE IN THE WORLD except for one family, because they weren't worshiping him. That doesn't sound like love to me at all. That sounds like megalomania mixed with intense neediness. Those aren't attributes I would expect from any real God.
Nothing you do can exclude you from asking for God's forgiveness and eternal Saving.
P.S.-This is kinda random, but Ghandi did believe in multiple religions. He wasn't just a Hindu. He studied and took on parts of other religions to form his belief system. So he may very well have accepted the love of Christ. I don't know.
Fair enough. Let's assume he didn't "accept the love of Christ". Is he in hell? Gandhi was a great man who helped to vastly improve the lives of millions of people. I don't think he deserves that. I don't believe in God, and have, in fact, committed the aforementioned "unpardonable sin". Am I going to go to hell? Do I deserve it?
As for this Jeffrey Dahmer fellow...If he was truly sorry, then Christ will forgive anyone. If he repented for his sins, then he deserves just as much as any other to go to Heaven. Those who don't deserve to go to Heaven by God's standards are those who sin and never seek forgiveness. Those people who sin and have no desire to be forgiven for it, they get to go to Hell.
This man raped, murdered and ate a bunch of teenage boys. He's up there high-fiving Saint Peter right now, while Gandhi is being tortured? That doesn't seem right to me. Why does God like to torture everyone who won't worship him?
Also, you ignored these:
Why did God put the "old Jewish laws" in the Old Testament if they made no sense?
Why do you believe that your particular God even exists in the first place? What is there to make you believe that anything in the Bible is true, other than the very few things that can be established by historical evidence? (For instance, the Roman empire certainly existed. Jesus? Maybe not so much.)
Can we stop this now? There is a single question to be answered before anyone can start debating religion like this on this forum. The only reason this has gone on so long is because Rym and Scott are away for a while and aren't keeping up with the forum. Here's a quote:
From now on, anyone who attempts to make an argument in favor of religion that fails to refute the flying spaghetti monster argument will be closed. I know this might make us seem cowardly, like we are avoiding the argument, but if you look at our history of debate in this forum I think you will see we are nothing if not afraid to defend our position. The reason for this policy is because we do not have the time for this bullshit anymore. We have posted the same exact arguments repeatedly in multiple threads, and you people still do not comprehend the basic tenets of logic, reason, and burden of proof.
If someone can manage to actually make a new argument that actually warrants a reply that we have not already posted a billion times, we will let the thread live. If you want to attempt this, I suggest you start by trying to refute the flying spaghetti monster argument. You must make it at least that far.
For the final time on this forum I will post the FSM argument.
There is no evidence for the flying spaghetti monster. It is possible that it could exist. Do you believe in the FSM? No, that would be crazy.
There is a mountain of evidence that suggests the sky is blue. There is a possibility that the sky is not blue. Do you believe the sky is not blue? No, that would be crazy.
There is no evidence for the existence of anything supernatural, including any god or gods. It is possible that supernatural things could exist. Do you believe in god or gods? If you do, you're as crazy as someone who believes in the FSM or someone who believes the sky is not blue.
Everything you can think of has a philosophical possibility of being true. For all we know we are in the Matrix, it is possible. Also, everything you think you know has a philosophical possibility of being false. Grass might not be green. It could be a trick and grass is actually all magenta. Discussing those possibilities is interesting, for philosophy.
In reality and practical every day living, philosophy doesn't matter. The infinitesimally small possibility that things with no supporting evidence might be true, or the infinitesimally small possibility that things with mountains of evidence might be false are ignored. Instead we look only at evidence. Everything claim is false by default, and things are shown to be true by supporting them with scientific evidence. If you make a claim, especially an extraordinary one, you will be required to provide evidence to support that claim. If you can not support the claim it is false by default.
Nobody has to prove things wrong. They are false by default until proven. If things were true by default, then everything would be true. Instead you have to prove things right. You will never prove something 100%, because of the philosophical doubt. But rational people ignore the philosophical doubt outside of philosophical discussions. For purposes of reality and every day life that doubt does not exist. If you were to seriously take that doubt into consideration or believe something exists in that small space, then you are as irrational as someone who believes the sky is plaid.
So, Axel, let's play by the rules. You refute the above argument, and we'll keep debating.
Everyone else, let's just ignore everything else that Axel posts, unless it is connected to the above argument.
God did not create us to worship him. Why does he need a bunch of people to tell him how great he is? He created the WORLD, he already knows how great he is. He doesn't torture you for not believing in him, God submits you to torture for not wanting and/or accepting forgiveness from Christ. No matter what you do, as long as you accept Christ's love and don't blaspheme against God, you're saved. And yeah, God did kill everyone once, in the Old Testament, when that was the only way. God tried everything to make people understand, to make people not sin. But when he realized that it wouldn't work, he sent Jesus to die for our sins. And I just thought of a reason why he didn't send him before. Jesus is God. Do you think God wanted to die? Jesus didn't want to die. He knew he had to, but he didn't want to. No one does. Is your first option going to be send yourself to this distant planet and die so that other people can be saved, or give them the chance to redeem themselves first? I think the latter seems more appropriate.
And I'm not saying that acceptance into Heaven makes sense. I'm just saying that I find it hard to believe that a loving God (which I consider to assert he is) would deny people into Heaven because they aren't good enough.
You know, it's Atheists like you who bother me the most. I try to be nice. I admit, I'm no genius, I don't understand all this stuff perfectly. But you attack me. I have never once attacked your beliefs, but you have assaulted mine. Admittedly, maybe I shouldn't come a place filled with Atheists and post in the topic making fun of religion trying to defend it. But pardon me if I want to defend misconceptions people have on religion. I also note that Atheists seek out Religion all the time to mock it and defend their Atheistic ideas against it, which is kinda what this topic was doing from the start. So maybe I shouldn't argue Science, but I can argue Religion, because that I understand. And I also understand when someone misconstrues religion, just as you so heinously point out my misconstruing of Science. See, most Atheists still think of religion as this barbaric pseudo scientific institution that we use to explain things because we have no understanding of the world. If this were the case, Science is great, Atheism is great, etc. But it's not. Religion is much more than just some method of proving the world, and it's also more than a list of right and wrong and the consequences. Some religions developed for those purposes, and Christianity was the offshoot of the latter. But Christianity is about something spiritual, something emotional, something that goes beyond logic, something you clearly can't understand. I believe in the redemption and the love of Christ, and that leads me to follow what the Bible says. And the Bible says things about the world, and while I'm willing to accept scientific theories (did I use it right this time?) about this world and its origins, I have to take them and try and explain them by the Bible. If I started by using the Bible to prove the origins of the world, then Science would turn me away from Religion. But I started by using the Bible as something spiritual, and therefore am inclined to believe God when he told the people who wrote the Bible that every word was true. So excuse me if I seem undereducated and confused. But I don't need some self-righteous Atheist who thinks they're a good person because they accept everybody to come and explain Science to me, because as far as I'm concerned, learning the ins and outs of Science is not what's really important to us as people, and as human beings.
I spent 14 years of my life as a devout Christian, specifically a Methodist. I attended a Catholic grammar school. I was infused with God's love, and at a point in my life, I realized that I no longer needed to go to church and pray to be fulfilled. I can find fulfillment by doing good works without self-denial and being taught to live in fear.
I like the way that you presume I couldn't understand, though. What was that line? "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself?" That's a good line right there. You should try remembering that some time.
But Christianity is about something spiritual, something emotional, something that goes beyond logic, something you clearly can't understand.
Part of it, sure. But part of it also tells people that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to get married, that masturbation is wrong and you're bad for doing it, and that if you don't do exactly what some invisible guy says, you'll go to a very bad place full of fire. My beef is this: if you're looking for spiritual fulfillment, that's great, but you need to really dig deep into any system to get that. Most Christian denominations still present themselves as packaged solutions to all of your problems, and that's where I take umbrage. Why should I just listen to the Bible? I pick my life philosophy from a collection of different philosophies; I take a little from Christianity, a little from Buddhism, a little Taoism, and so forth.
Spirituality is a fantastic thing, it really is. Pondering the things that science cannot yet explain is a noble pursuit. That's not what religion is, though, at least not completely. It's a packaged solution that requires obedience to strict tenets. It discourages true exploration because it always brings you back to the same answer.
If you use the Bible for spiritual guidance, great, but if you use it as a textbook for living your life, that's not the way to go.
The science issue stands apart from spiritualism. If you want to really break it down, science addresses the physical world. If we demonstrate something with science, you accept it to the extent that science demonstrates it to be true. That should in no way affect your spirituality.
...I am a firm believer that humans do not have the spiritual power to shape their destiny...
No. I have authority. I have power. God has not taken away my power, because I do not let him. I don't let him control me, because I have control of myself.
...I don't believe that we as people have the individual ability to solve all of our problems...
NO! Why are you willingly giving up your power? You're neglecting a part of you by willingly giving yourself up to god, and letting him control your strings. You are the master of puppets.
Bah, I'm overreacting because I need to assert myself that I'm right. However, you don't need to be all-powerful and all-knowing because we are human, but this doesn't remove our power and make us weak. Anyway, It's a different viewpoint.
In fact, I believe you should stop being a Christian and just turn to buddhism. Just do it for 30 days, that's all I ask. Then maybe try something else like Judaism. Seriously, just drop Christianity for 30 days and you can continue with your normal life after the 30 days. I think that you have encapsulated yourself in your religious beliefs because as you said, you have been Christian all your life. Put away those Christian glasses and try that pair of Judaism. You don't even need to try being aitheist, stick with something comfortable. I get the feeling that you're trapped in the Christian viewpoint and I believe that you will gain much from understanding different points of view, even if you still believe that being Christian is the best way to go at the end. I would respect you much more if you're willing to try this.
Isn't religion's true purpose to explain what happens after you die? The only purpose for following a religion is to get to heaven. You can argue otherwise, but it really narrows down to that. Thus, if I don't believe in heaven, why should I abide by the rules of an unproved God?
I believe religion is nothing more than an explanation for what we don't know. I could go in to a long debate, but honestly, the FSM argument has essentially put my thoughts into words. I have nothing more to say on the subject.
Sorry, I was unaware of the FSM rule. Why do all other geeks have to be Atheists? Now you all automatically hate me. Okay, argument over.
On-Topic: The marketing campaign is ineffective, because it does not explain itself within the context of the commercial well enough. Also, it assumes that everyone watching is either a Christian or believes in a God, or has doubts. It doesn't even take the existence of Atheism into account, really. Therefore, its argument is flawed.
Sorry, I was unaware of the FSM rule. Why do all other geeks have to be Atheists? Now you all automatically hate me. Okay, argument over.
On-Topic: The marketing campaign is ineffective, because it does not explain itself within the context of the commercial well enough. Also, it assumes that everyone watching is either a Christian or believes in a God, or has doubts. It doesn't even take the existence of Atheism into account, really. Therefore, its argument is flawed.
Not all of us. Some of us are perfectly happy to let people see their options and choose their own path. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't telling ME how to live my life, your choice of spiritual path doesn't bother me one bit. It's when religious people start imposing their religious rules and restrictions on others that it becomes a problem. As for the FSM rule, veteran forumites should have brought it up sooner when the debate started. It's not listed in the Rules and Hints sticky, so you really shouldn't be expected to know the rule immediately upon joining. We should probably get that added.
Yeah, the ad kind of leaves me wondering who their intended audience is and what they intend to achieve. I think the only people who would really be impacted by the ad are those that already subscribe to the belief system the ad-makers are trying to propagate. Most people who are atheists aren't atheists because they haven't heard the "word of God." Most of us are atheists because it didn't resonate with us, or at some point it stopped resonating with us, and we don't feel like living what feels like a lie. I could call myself a Wiccan and observe all the rituals, but if I don't really feel that they are genuine then am I really a Wiccan, or am I just going through the motions of being a Wiccan? An ad like this doesn't do anything to make "God" resonate with someone who doesn't already feel it.
I do want to discuss these topics, they are a lot of fun. I was just wanting to get some focus! There were about four or five different lines argument going on, and not a lot of progress. Pinning something down to a single claim is a good way to go.
I'd like to debate some of you guys on reasons for quoting the bible while debating Christians. I think we could cover a lot of ground. But I'm off on a work trip tomorrow so we'll have to put it off for a few weeks.
I'd like to debate some of you guys on reasons for quoting the bible while debating Christians. I think we could cover a lot of ground. But I'm off on a work trip tomorrow so we'll have to put it off for a few weeks.
It's pretty obvious, why not use their own source material against them ^_^
I wonder if they give the Christians time in school to teach about God and creationism alongside evolution theory and alongside all the theories of the other religions and cults including scientologists and wiccans all with the same importance and all taught as possibilities without commenting on the flaws, then what would they say? I don't think that the Christians would like it if some one teaches their kids that according to some religion gays are A-OK...
What disgusts me the most about these people is their claim to oppose gay marriage in order "to protect religious tolerance". Hypocritical homophobic bastards.
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But if that point ruins the whole argument for you, then you sir, are a nitpicker. God did provide forgiveness for lots of souls of people who died before Jesus came, as it says in the New Testament, so it's not like all of those people got ripped off.
God's logic is above ours, so we can't comprehend everything he does. You will twist this to say that it's just reasoning by people as to why there are holes in the Bible, but whatever, you can interpret it how you wish. That's honestly one of the points I make that bothers people the most. They don't want to feel like God is some mighty superior being who's better than them, they think that they then (wow, quintuple alliteration) can't relate to him, that he's some far off distant power.
Now, since you HAVE consciously chosen to be a Christian of your own accord, maybe you can answer a question for me -- I've never gotten a satisfying answer to this question, but I'd love to hear one. Why did you pick your particular religion? Why do you believe that your God is the real one, and all the other gods are fake? Man -- really sucks that all those people were so screwed before God thought up the whole Jesus thing. Would've been nice if he could've come up with that sooner, but he's only human, I guess.
I answered your last point in the post above yours.
As to why I choose God instead of other religions...I'm gonna try and say this in a good way.
Now, there are hundreds upon thousands of belief systems. I can eliminate a lot of them for a few reasons:
1. Some don't believe in a living God, rather trusting in statues and idols. I want a God that is real, not some object.
2. Others believe in spirits of the past, worshiping them (ancestor worship.) Why does someone become more powerful after they die? That's just illogical.
3. Still others believe that the power to change the world and decide your destiny comes from within, that it's based on YOU. I am a firm believer that humans do not have the spiritual power to shape their destiny, and that if the world is really determined by us, then it would be screwed up by now, because a lot of people have messed up values.
That leaves still a lot of religions. My father is actually Jewish, so I can actually attest to being exposed to multiple religions. Between Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism...They all seem good. But deep down, some of them still have inherent flaws. Buddhism and Hinduism are the easiest to point out. Both of them are based on people. Someone (in the first case, Buddha) magically achieves enlightenment and realizes all sorts of truths on his own. I don't believe that we as people have the individual ability to solve all of our problems, I feel that if that were true, people would be less screwed up, because a lot of people try really hard to fix their problems. Hinduism was similar, but added gods and goddesses to the mix. However, the gods and goddesses are more mythological in nature. You still solve problems yourself.
Both of these, as well as Judaism and Islam, also raise another point. Punishments and/or rewards in the afterlife are determined by how good you are.
So...How good is good? That's one of my biggest problems with all other religions that say that goodness gets you into heaven. Who decides what's good? What if you just had to do something bad sometimes? Humans naturally screw up. Therefore, only the few, righteous people who can ascend the evils of humanity get to ascend to Heaven, Nirvana, etc.
But Christianity is actually different. You don't go to Heaven because you did good things. You go to Heaven because Jesus Christ died so that you could be forgiven for all of the bad things you'd done. It's the only one that provides a logical way to have your sins forgiven. Even some of the Jewish laws in the Old Testament made no sense. I understand why God might want us to sacrifice things to him, but why does cutting up a goat forgive our sins? Islam has similar values, that you follow this rule and that rule, do this then and that later, and then Allah will accept you.
The New Testament isn't full of new rules to follow that will save you, it provides a concrete and loving way for you to be forgiven, that's based on loving your God, not fearing him and following his rules.
The reason why we have to be forgiven like this is not because God is a totalitarian dictator. In fact, quite the opposite. He gave up his dictatorship over us by giving us free will (Which, by the way, is from Genesis, Andrew, not the Gospels). With free will, we learned to sin. Sin separates us from God. And because we chose to Sin, we can't be near God, who does not sin. While sin may seem like a concept to you, to a Christian and to God it is very real. It separates our soul from God, and makes it impossible to be near him. With all of the sin staining our soul, we can't be near him. God did provide forgiveness in some way, as I said, in the Old Testament. The old laws were supposed to help people be forgiven.
But they don't work very well. Because if you have to slaughter an animal for every single bad thing you've done, this is gonna get ugly. No one could stay on top of it, not one could perfectly follow the old rules and punishments of the Old Testament. Therefore, God provided a new way for us to be forgiven, Jesus. Which I've already explained.
God is not meant to be feared. We fear Sin and that it separates us from a loving God, not God Himself.
Why did God put the "old Jewish laws" in the Old Testament if they made no sense?
Why do you believe that your particular God even exists in the first place? What is there to make you believe that anything in the Bible is true, other than the very few things that can be established by historical evidence? (For instance, the Roman empire certainly existed. Jesus? Maybe not so much.) Total BS. In that case, God only downgraded his dictatorship to the level of any average, mirrored-sunglasses-military dictator, albeit one with omnipotent, omniscient magical powers. We have exactly as much free will as those in North Korea or Nazi Germany. Do whatever you want, but if we don't like it, we'll kill you. Or just torture you for eternity. Why didn't God know this wouldn't work out from the very beginning? I thought he was a smart guy.
God loves us. I think any real god would. Otherwise, why create us, and then give us free will? Love has to be involved, because nothing else seems to make sense as a reason to create life, and then give it the ability to hate you and defy you.
If God loves us, then he wouldn't expect us to be perfect. Judaism and Islam have very high expectations of people. While, like you said, it may be more logical for only the best to go to Heaven, if God loves everyone, then that is NOT logical by His standards, since it excludes a vast majority of his loved ones.
If God loves us, and therefore doesn't expect us to be perfect, the only religion that makes sense is one that provides something that anyone and everyone can choose to do, which, in Christianity's case, is to accept the forgiveness of Jesus. I believe in the religion that provides the most saving to everyone and anyone. Nothing you do can exclude you from asking for God's forgiveness and eternal Saving. Other religions do have things that can exclude you. I think everyone deserves God's forgiveness, because if he loves them, then they deserve it.
And no, I'm not saying you should forgive Hitler. That's a different argument altogether. I'm talking about God's forgiveness, not human forgiveness. Very different.
P.S.-This is kinda random, but Ghandi did believe in multiple religions. He wasn't just a Hindu. He studied and took on parts of other religions to form his belief system. So he may very well have accepted the love of Christ. I don't know.
As for this Jeffrey Dahmer fellow...If he was truly sorry, then Christ will forgive anyone. If he repented for his sins, then he deserves just as much as any other to go to Heaven. Those who don't deserve to go to Heaven by God's standards are those who sin and never seek forgiveness. Those people who sin and have no desire to be forgiven for it, they get to go to Hell.
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about discussion of that ad campaign?
Barring emotional reaction to the imagery, I simply find the ad problematic because it assumes that:
a) there is a God, and
b) you cannot matter to anyone else if you do not matter to a God.
Even if there is no God, that doesn't change the fact that my mother loves me and I matter to her. Who are these people to say otherwise? Do they know all of my friends and family? Can they honestly say I matter to no one? I don't see what they could possibly accomplish with this ad.
Response to point "2": Ancestor worship doesn't state that individuals become "more powerful" when they die, simply that they believe that the dead have certain abilities (not necessarily more or less). Moreover, this "worship" usually has a great deal to do with honoring the dead, not worshiping them in the Western sense of that word. Also, you who claim to literally believe a book that was written by men and has been altered repeatedly (added to, subtracted from, edited, and poorly translated) is the word of an invisible all powerful God that controls our fate and allows us free will (a paradox) call their beliefs illogical? FAITH by its very nature is illogical. To attack another for their faith is an attack back at you.
Response to point "3": First, you make the assumption that your socially designed values are somehow superior to any others. This is sheer hubris. A sin in your own faith. How can we trust your values when you flout them yourself? Second, what is spiritual power to change our destiny? Are you saying that God developed the A-Bomb or chocolate milk? Doesn't your own scripture say that God is going to royally fuck-up the Earth in this little thing call the rapture? Third, how do you define "screwed up"? Global warming, decreasing resources, weapons of mass destruction, etc. We have been able to change the world's destiny with our own actions negatively (and positively). How does your point hold any water? Has God stepped in and fixed the Ozone layer? Has God stepped in and stopped a war? No. Men and women decide what gets done and how it gets done. Fourth, your God gave Men free will, according to your faith. Doesn't that mean that Men can shape their own destinies?
Also, you ignored these:
So, Axel, let's play by the rules. You refute the above argument, and we'll keep debating.
Everyone else, let's just ignore everything else that Axel posts, unless it is connected to the above argument.
And yeah, God did kill everyone once, in the Old Testament, when that was the only way. God tried everything to make people understand, to make people not sin. But when he realized that it wouldn't work, he sent Jesus to die for our sins.
And I just thought of a reason why he didn't send him before.
Jesus is God. Do you think God wanted to die? Jesus didn't want to die. He knew he had to, but he didn't want to. No one does. Is your first option going to be send yourself to this distant planet and die so that other people can be saved, or give them the chance to redeem themselves first? I think the latter seems more appropriate.
And I'm not saying that acceptance into Heaven makes sense. I'm just saying that I find it hard to believe that a loving God (which I consider to assert he is) would deny people into Heaven because they aren't good enough.
LukeBurrage, Nuri, you win, I'm done.
I like the way that you presume I couldn't understand, though. What was that line? "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself?" That's a good line right there. You should try remembering that some time. Part of it, sure. But part of it also tells people that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to get married, that masturbation is wrong and you're bad for doing it, and that if you don't do exactly what some invisible guy says, you'll go to a very bad place full of fire. My beef is this: if you're looking for spiritual fulfillment, that's great, but you need to really dig deep into any system to get that. Most Christian denominations still present themselves as packaged solutions to all of your problems, and that's where I take umbrage. Why should I just listen to the Bible? I pick my life philosophy from a collection of different philosophies; I take a little from Christianity, a little from Buddhism, a little Taoism, and so forth.
Spirituality is a fantastic thing, it really is. Pondering the things that science cannot yet explain is a noble pursuit. That's not what religion is, though, at least not completely. It's a packaged solution that requires obedience to strict tenets. It discourages true exploration because it always brings you back to the same answer.
If you use the Bible for spiritual guidance, great, but if you use it as a textbook for living your life, that's not the way to go.
The science issue stands apart from spiritualism. If you want to really break it down, science addresses the physical world. If we demonstrate something with science, you accept it to the extent that science demonstrates it to be true. That should in no way affect your spirituality.
Bah, I'm overreacting because I need to assert myself that I'm right. However, you don't need to be all-powerful and all-knowing because we are human, but this doesn't remove our power and make us weak. Anyway, It's a different viewpoint.
In fact, I believe you should stop being a Christian and just turn to buddhism. Just do it for 30 days, that's all I ask. Then maybe try something else like Judaism. Seriously, just drop Christianity for 30 days and you can continue with your normal life after the 30 days. I think that you have encapsulated yourself in your religious beliefs because as you said, you have been Christian all your life. Put away those Christian glasses and try that pair of Judaism. You don't even need to try being aitheist, stick with something comfortable. I get the feeling that you're trapped in the Christian viewpoint and I believe that you will gain much from understanding different points of view, even if you still believe that being Christian is the best way to go at the end. I would respect you much more if you're willing to try this.
The only purpose for following a religion is to get to heaven. You can argue otherwise, but it really narrows down to that. Thus, if I don't believe in heaven, why should I abide by the rules of an unproved God?
I believe religion is nothing more than an explanation for what we don't know. I could go in to a long debate, but honestly, the FSM argument has essentially put my thoughts into words. I have nothing more to say on the subject.
Why do all other geeks have to be Atheists? Now you all automatically hate me.
Okay, argument over.
On-Topic: The marketing campaign is ineffective, because it does not explain itself within the context of the commercial well enough. Also, it assumes that everyone watching is either a Christian or believes in a God, or has doubts. It doesn't even take the existence of Atheism into account, really. Therefore, its argument is flawed.
There's really no way for this topic to work without a religious debate is there?
Yeah, the ad kind of leaves me wondering who their intended audience is and what they intend to achieve. I think the only people who would really be impacted by the ad are those that already subscribe to the belief system the ad-makers are trying to propagate. Most people who are atheists aren't atheists because they haven't heard the "word of God." Most of us are atheists because it didn't resonate with us, or at some point it stopped resonating with us, and we don't feel like living what feels like a lie. I could call myself a Wiccan and observe all the rituals, but if I don't really feel that they are genuine then am I really a Wiccan, or am I just going through the motions of being a Wiccan? An ad like this doesn't do anything to make "God" resonate with someone who doesn't already feel it.
If you don't want to discuss these topics, stop posting in this thread.
I'd like to debate some of you guys on reasons for quoting the bible while debating Christians. I think we could cover a lot of ground. But I'm off on a work trip tomorrow so we'll have to put it off for a few weeks.
They really wouldn't.
What disgusts me the most about these people is their claim to oppose gay marriage in order "to protect religious tolerance". Hypocritical homophobic bastards.