And I quote, "I have a problem when people use religion to do harmful things." Yes, I shun Satanists. Because Satanism practices an acceptance and love of evil, and of doing evil things to appease Satan. Among other religions, of course. But I can't think of any other blatantly violent/evil religions off the top of my head.
First of all, you don't know what satanism is.
Second of all, you are clearly forgetting history. How much so-called evil has been done by satanists in history? Any satanists genocides? Satanist wars? I don't seem to remember anything like that. Oh, but Christians, they have wars a-plenty, the Crusades just being the obvious starting point. You know, that time when they killed a bunch of people to appease god?
And I quote, "I have a problem when people use religion to do harmful things." Yes, I shun Satanists. Because Satanism practices an acceptance and love of evil, and of doing evil things to appease Satan. Among other religions, of course. But I can't think of any other blatantly violent/evil religions off the top of my head.
First of all, you don't know what satanism is.
Second of all, you are clearly forgetting history. How much so-called evil has been done by satanists in history? Any satanists genocides? Satanist wars? I don't seem to remember anything like that. Oh, but Christians, they have wars a-plenty, the Crusades just being the obvious starting point. You know, that time when they killed a bunch of people to appease god?
So, are you blaming all Christians for that? All of the charities that we've also set up have done nothing to atone for the mistakes that those idiots who fought a land war with the claim that it was for religion? And are you blaming the Bible on that? A Bible that says murder is wrong, and that we should instead love our neighbors? Also, Satanists haven't started wars because there aren't a lot of them. I mean, why have faith in a Devil, one whose entire purpose is to destroy and harm things, and to corrupt you and give you eternal punishment?
Also, just as government should protect gay rights, government should protect religion. Although not endorse it. We should have our right to be Christians and/or other religions protected, and our various needs. But they should be citizen-based, not religion-based.
Nobody here is saying that the right to believe in something should be taken away.
Okay, but Rym said the government should have no deference for religion. I just want to assure that decisions involving religion should still aim to protect religion, but not unfairly.
The only way to protect an individual's right to believe whatever they want is to keep religious reasoning of any sort out of government. Think about it. How can you guarantee someone's right to be a Buddhist as much as a Christian if laws are all based in Christian reasoning?
Hence, no religion in government institutions.
No government should be in religious institutions. But decisions in the government should still be made in favor of helping religions, if it is the fair thing to do. Such a decision should not be avoided just because you're helping a religion.
Man, what happened to this forum... it used to be all fun and games and now we're talking about homicidal Jesus? T_T
I have a question for Axel-of-the-Key (btw, I hate your damn hyphenated name! I keed...), who has apparently become the resident defender of Christianity. I understand that the regular moderate Christian just wants people to experience the warmth of faith and love of Jesus and God etc. but to experience this why does it require me to worship said diety? One of the things I find hard to understand is that for me to be a faithful Christian I must follow a set of essentially arbitrary ceremonies (such as prayer etc.) when at the end of the day the overall message is to "relax guy, and be nice to everyone". Isn't it hypocritical to teach humility and modesty when the whole idea of worship is so ego-centric? Isn't the message so much more important than who or what is delivering it?
By the way, I have to commend you for staying the course on this thread. I respect people who can stick to the topic of a debate and argue to the best of their abilities without resorting to childish crap.
He's saying you should tolerate Satanism, dude. "Satan as an allegory that represents a crisis of faith, individualism, free will, wisdom and enlightenment." Read about it.
Before this thread gets into closing territory, let's go down this road.
Axel. You think murder is evil. Why is it evil? Because god and Jesus say so? Because the bible says so? Pretend for a second that atheists are right, and there is no such thing. Just pretend. Would it be ok to kill people then? If there were no god, would you go around killing people?
Man, what happened to this forum... it used to be all fun and games and now we're talking about homicidal Jesus? T_T
I have a question for Axel-of-the-Key (btw, I hate your damn hyphenated name! I keed...), who has apparently become the resident defender of Christianity. I understand that the regular moderate Christian just wants people to experience the warmth of faith and love of Jesus and God etc. but to experience this why does it require me to worship said diety? One of the things I find hard to understand is that for me to be a faithful Christian I must follow a set of essentially arbitrary ceremonies (such as prayer etc.) when at the end of the day the overall message is to "relax guy, and be nice to everyone". Isn't it hypocritical to teach humility and modesty when the whole idea of worship is so ego-centric? Isn't the message so much more important than who or what is delivering it?
By the way, I have to commend you for staying the course on this thread. I respect people who can stick to the topic of a debate and argue to the best of their abilities without resorting to childish crap.
Well, you don't have to participate in arbitrary ceremonies. But, God believes that your life will be positively affected if you do. But, if you are unwilling to put in the spiritual requirement into this arbitrary ceremony, therefore making it not an arbitrary ceremony, then just don't do it for the sake of doing it. Also, the degree to which we live our lives will decide our rewards in Heaven. And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong. (wow, never thought I could apply that to religion.)
Before this thread gets into closing territory, let's go down this road.
Axel. You think murder is evil. Why is it evil? Because god and Jesus say so? Because the bible says so? Pretend for a second that atheists are right, and there is no such thing. Just pretend. Would it be ok to kill people then? If there were no god, would you go around killing people?
I want to live. What makes you different from me? What makes someone else's desire to live any less important than mine? That's why murder is wrong, in a Godless world.
And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong. (wow, never thought I could apply that to religion.)
How do you know what god wants? Are you god? Did he tell you this himself?
I want to live. What makes you different from me? What makes someone else's desire to live any less important than mine? That's why murder is wrong, in a Godless world.
How do you even know that I'm real? Cogito Ergo Sum. You have no proof that I even exist, so you definitely have no proof that my will to live exists.
And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong. (wow, never thought I could apply that to religion.)
How do you know what god wants? Are you god? Did he tell you this himself?
He talks about it in the Bible. At least, that's how I choose to interpret it. I'm just answering a question I was asked based on my understanding of the Bible.
And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong.
Whoa whoa whoa. So Gods want us to willing love him and appreciate his love for us and everything he does? Then why are we born into sin and then demanded to worship him or face eternal damnation? I can't love anyone who demands for me to worship them or else face torture so unimaginable that it would make Dick Cheney look like a Saint.
He talks about it in the Bible. At least, that's how I choose to interpret it. I'm just answering a question I was asked based on my understanding of the Bible.
How do you know YOUR understanding is correct? If god exists, and you read the book wrong, then you're in the same boat as us.
I want to live. What makes you different from me? What makes someone else's desire to live any less important than mine? That's why murder is wrong, in a Godless world.
How do you even know that I'm real? Cogito Ergo Sum. You have no proof that I even exist, so you definitely have no proof that my will to live exists.
That's absolutely true. I choose to believe that you too are a person, so that continues to fall under my understanding of the world in a religious context. So why is it bad then? If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong.
Whoa whoa whoa. So Gods want us to willing love him and appreciate his love for us and everything he does? Then why are we born into sin and then demanded to worship him or face eternal damnation? I can't love anyone who demands for me to worship them or else face torture so unimaginable that it would make Dick Cheney look like a Saint.
God doesn't demand you to worship him. He would like it if you did, but accepting Jesus' love is the only requirement. Not accepting as in "You must accept this!," but like accepting a gift. And since when did God birth us into Sin? God birthed Adam and Eve into a sinless world. They made the choice to disobey, and gained the knowledge of sin. Knowing of sin, we willingly choose, each day, to sin. We are corrupted human beings, and are destined to always choose sin.
That's absolutely true. I choose to believe that you too are a person, so that continues to fall under my understanding of the world in a religious context. So why is it bad then? If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
The point is that you believe things about right and wrong. And you believe them not because some book told you to, but because YOU told you to. You have a personal interpretation of the bible, but that's YOUR interpretation. It's not God's interpretation.
You've just told us that you actually don't live according to the bible. You live your life according to your own personal conscience. You live according to your own personal moral code that has nothing to do with god or anything else.
The only difference is that you blame your conscience on god. You lean on a book. We take ownership of our conscience instead of passing the responsibility to some imaginary friend. You are living your life the same way we live our lives. Your living your life according to your own personal way. The only difference is that you are lying to yourself about it.
If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
Whoa, whoa, wait. Is the only reason that Christians believe murder is bad is that they were told not to by God and that they will be punished if they do it? If that's the case, shame on them. However, if there is a deeper reason, why wouldn't it be the same regardless of whether or not God exists?
If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
Whoa, whoa, wait. Is the only reason that Christians believe murder is bad is that they were told not to by God and that they will be punished if they do it? If that's the case, shame on them. However, if there is a deeper reason, why wouldn't it be the same regardless of whether or not God exists?
For your second point, yes. But Scott was leaning towards an idea that seemed to be pointing towards no logical reason for why murder was bad. I was pointing out that he had better find a way to argue that murder was bad in a Godless world, or it would start to prove religion right, oddly enough.
That's absolutely true. I choose to believe that you too are a person, so that continues to fall under my understanding of the world in a religious context. So why is it bad then? If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
The point is that you believe things about right and wrong. And you believe them not because some book told you to, but because YOU told you to. You have a personal interpretation of the bible, but that's YOUR interpretation. It's not God's interpretation.
You've just told us that you actually don't live according to the bible. You live your life according to your own personal conscience. You live according to your own personal moral code that has nothing to do with god or anything else.
The only difference is that you blame your conscience on god. You lean on a book. We take ownership of our conscience instead of passing the responsibility to some imaginary friend.
Actually, I think I just pointed out that I have no reason to believe that murder is bad. If it can't be based on my understanding of the world, then it really is because God said so, seeing as how my belief that you are a person comes from a book as well, apparently. Thanks Descartes, or whoever had the "I think, therefore I am." Okay, where does your conscience come from? Evolution, and a desire for group advancement, and some such belief? That is the argument I've heard from other Atheists, and I don't completely buy it.
God doesn't demand you to worship him. He would like it if you did, but accepting Jesus' love is the only requirement. Not accepting as in "You must accept this!," but like accepting a gift.
The Gospels clearly state that the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as one's "Lord and Savior". The whole story about Nicodemus was about this very idea. If you do not accept this precept, you are not a Christian.
Also, I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. (Hint: Unforgivable sin)
God doesn't demand you to worship him. He would like it if you did, but accepting Jesus' love is the only requirement. Not accepting as in "You must accept this!," but like accepting a gift.
The Gospels clearly state that the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as one's "Lord and Savior". The whole story about Nicodemus was about this very idea. If you do not accept this precept, you are not a Christian.
Also, I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. (Hint: Unforgivable sin)
Yes, accept him. Like a gift. He's offering you forgiveness. That's what I think they mean by acceptance. Namely the "savior" part. Also, unforgivable sin, you speak of blasphemy, no? Well, the theory behind that is if you reject Jesus' gift, then no, you won't be forgiven. Kind of obvious actually. Other sins, such as lust, greed, gluttony, etc., can be forgiven if you ask Jesus. But, blaspheming against Jesus and not accepting forgiveness, can't be forgive, because you haven't accepted the forgiveness that would forgive you of your sin of not accepting. Blech, that's a mouthful.
Evolution, and a desire for group advancement, and some such belief?
WHA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-:breathe:-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. Oh man, you're being hilarious, but if you are trying to look less stupid, turn around.
Yes, accept him. Like a gift. He's offering you forgiveness. That's what I think they mean by acceptance. Namely the "savior" part. Also, unforgivable sin, you speak of blasphemy, no? Well, the theory behind that is if you reject Jesus' gift, then no, you won't be forgiven. Kind of obvious actually. Other sins, such as lust, greed, gluttony, etc., can be forgiven if you ask Jesus. But, blaspheming against Jesus and not accepting forgiveness, can't be forgive, because you haven't accepted the forgiveness that would forgive you of your sin of not accepting. Blech, that's a mouthful.
I don't believe that passing my "sins" on to another man by murdering him is an acceptable moral position. In fact, the whole idea of forgiveness via scapegoat is so unethical and evil that it does nothing to solve the problem of "evil" in the first place.
Evolution, and a desire for group advancement, and some such belief?
WHA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-:breathe:-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. Oh man, you're being hilarious, but if you are trying to look less stupid, turn around.
I'm sorry, I heard from an Atheist that the argument for kindness was a biological imperative for group cooperation in order to succeed in life. I didn't realize that he was different from all other Atheists.
Okay, where does your conscience come from? Evolution, and a desire for group advancement, and some such belief? That is the argument I've heard from other Atheists, and I don't completely buy it.
You don't buy it because you don't know science. What do you know about evolution or neurology? Nothing. You've basically just argue that you believe in god because you don't understand science. Why don't you learn the science? Is it too hard for you to understand?
Maybe that's the root of this problem, and perhaps why smarter people tend to be atheist and dumber people tend to be more religiuos. The real world full of science, which is hard. It has lots of hard math and takes lots of study to understand it. God is easy to understand. Even little babies understand imaginary friends.
Prove me wrong and learn about the science you "don't buy". So far you've been pretty good at demonstrating you don't understand basic logic or the scientific method. Try starting there.
Seems like a dogpile here. Poor Axel, the only christian surrounded by atheists. That he is wrong so often on so many layers doesn't help him either. I think I'll join the dogpile:
Fact of the matter is that if God exists and he behaves like most christians say he does, he de facto does demand for every person to worship him under the threat of Hell if you do not.
Yes, accept him. Like a gift. He's offering you forgiveness. That's what I think they mean by acceptance. Namely the "savior" part. Also, unforgivable sin, you speak of blasphemy, no? Well, the theory behind that is if you reject Jesus' gift, then no, you won't be forgiven. Kind of obvious actually. Other sins, such as lust, greed, gluttony, etc., can be forgiven if you ask Jesus. But, blaspheming against Jesus and not accepting forgiveness, can't be forgive, because you haven't accepted the forgiveness that would forgive you of your sin of not accepting. Blech, that's a mouthful.
I don't believe that passing my "sins" on to another man by murdering him is an acceptable moral position. In fact, the whole idea of forgiveness via scapegoat is so unethical and evil that it does nothing to solve the problem of "evil" in the first place.
You could look at it that way. But you forget that Jesus is God. God loves us, and wants us to be in Heaven. If we are sorry, truly sorry, for our sins, and we ask for forgiveness, then he will grant it to us. He can't just let us go to Heaven anyways, because sin is a barrier to God. Having sin prevents God from being near us. Therefore, he provided for us a way to be cleansed when we die, so that those of us who wish to atone can atone and be forgiven.
But you forget that Jesus is God. God loves us, and wants us to be in Heaven. If we are sorry, truly sorry, for our sins, and we ask for forgiveness, then he will grant it to us. He can't just let us go to Heaven anyways, because sin is a barrier to God. Having sin prevents God from being near us. Therefore, he provided for us a way to be cleansed when we die, so that those of us who wish to atone can atone and be forgiven.
How do you know that he loves you? Did he touch you in a bad way?
Comments
Second of all, you are clearly forgetting history. How much so-called evil has been done by satanists in history? Any satanists genocides? Satanist wars? I don't seem to remember anything like that. Oh, but Christians, they have wars a-plenty, the Crusades just being the obvious starting point. You know, that time when they killed a bunch of people to appease god?
Also, Satanists haven't started wars because there aren't a lot of them. I mean, why have faith in a Devil, one whose entire purpose is to destroy and harm things, and to corrupt you and give you eternal punishment?
I have a question for Axel-of-the-Key (btw, I hate your damn hyphenated name! I keed...), who has apparently become the resident defender of Christianity. I understand that the regular moderate Christian just wants people to experience the warmth of faith and love of Jesus and God etc. but to experience this why does it require me to worship said diety? One of the things I find hard to understand is that for me to be a faithful Christian I must follow a set of essentially arbitrary ceremonies (such as prayer etc.) when at the end of the day the overall message is to "relax guy, and be nice to everyone". Isn't it hypocritical to teach humility and modesty when the whole idea of worship is so ego-centric? Isn't the message so much more important than who or what is delivering it?
By the way, I have to commend you for staying the course on this thread. I respect people who can stick to the topic of a debate and argue to the best of their abilities without resorting to childish crap.
Axel. You think murder is evil. Why is it evil? Because god and Jesus say so? Because the bible says so? Pretend for a second that atheists are right, and there is no such thing. Just pretend. Would it be ok to kill people then? If there were no god, would you go around killing people?
And yes, I suppose it can be considered difficult to understand why you are forced to worship God. But God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear. God wants us to worship him because we love him, and because we want to. If you're doing it out of fear, you're doing it wrong. (wow, never thought I could apply that to religion.)
I'm just answering a question I was asked based on my understanding of the Bible.
So why is it bad then? If you can't prove to me that murder is bad in a Godless world, then I think that proves more of my points about Religion than yours.
And since when did God birth us into Sin? God birthed Adam and Eve into a sinless world. They made the choice to disobey, and gained the knowledge of sin. Knowing of sin, we willingly choose, each day, to sin. We are corrupted human beings, and are destined to always choose sin.
You've just told us that you actually don't live according to the bible. You live your life according to your own personal conscience. You live according to your own personal moral code that has nothing to do with god or anything else.
The only difference is that you blame your conscience on god. You lean on a book. We take ownership of our conscience instead of passing the responsibility to some imaginary friend. You are living your life the same way we live our lives. Your living your life according to your own personal way. The only difference is that you are lying to yourself about it.
Actually, I think I just pointed out that I have no reason to believe that murder is bad. If it can't be based on my understanding of the world, then it really is because God said so, seeing as how my belief that you are a person comes from a book as well, apparently. Thanks Descartes, or whoever had the "I think, therefore I am."
Okay, where does your conscience come from? Evolution, and a desire for group advancement, and some such belief? That is the argument I've heard from other Atheists, and I don't completely buy it.
Also, I deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. (Hint: Unforgivable sin)
Also, unforgivable sin, you speak of blasphemy, no? Well, the theory behind that is if you reject Jesus' gift, then no, you won't be forgiven. Kind of obvious actually. Other sins, such as lust, greed, gluttony, etc., can be forgiven if you ask Jesus. But, blaspheming against Jesus and not accepting forgiveness, can't be forgive, because you haven't accepted the forgiveness that would forgive you of your sin of not accepting. Blech, that's a mouthful.
Maybe that's the root of this problem, and perhaps why smarter people tend to be atheist and dumber people tend to be more religiuos. The real world full of science, which is hard. It has lots of hard math and takes lots of study to understand it. God is easy to understand. Even little babies understand imaginary friends.
Prove me wrong and learn about the science you "don't buy". So far you've been pretty good at demonstrating you don't understand basic logic or the scientific method. Try starting there.
Fact of the matter is that if God exists and he behaves like most christians say he does, he de facto does demand for every person to worship him under the threat of Hell if you do not.
But you forget that Jesus is God. God loves us, and wants us to be in Heaven. If we are sorry, truly sorry, for our sins, and we ask for forgiveness, then he will grant it to us. He can't just let us go to Heaven anyways, because sin is a barrier to God. Having sin prevents God from being near us. Therefore, he provided for us a way to be cleansed when we die, so that those of us who wish to atone can atone and be forgiven.