Regarding relative luxury: We aren't talking about health care standards for the rest of the world. We are talking about the US. As such, we should base our judgment of standard of living on the US. I don't understand why you guys keep bringing up the argument that we live in relative luxury. No one is disputing it. However, I don't see anyone suggesting that we should force lower class people to live in shanty towns, either. If people lived in aluminum boxes, they could afford rent! Woohoo, a solution to our economic problems! ...Keeping an idea of the scope of this topic in mind might be a good idea. Regarding income standards: A single person living in the suburbs of the southeast US can make do with a 20 k take-home income. However, it doesn't leave any room for savings or discretionary costs. You certainly have trouble paying for any unexpected expenses over $1000, like car repairs or medical bills.
Really, to maintain a job anywhere not IN a city, you need at least a car, gas for said car, and insurance. You have to have somewhere to live, so rent. Electric and gas. Internet is pretty necessary for most people these days; I had to be able to work from home if I was called up after hours. Most of my job search and negotiation was through email. Food is also a big expense that many people don't account for.
I made a bit more than 20 k after taxes for the last two years, and I have absolutely zero savings. Every time I saved up any substantial amount of money, I had a car repair or medical bill that required almost exactly what I had saved up. (And that's WITH insurance.) I don't have kids. I don't go on expensive week-long trips to exotic places. I don't eat out very often. I started doing two other 'hobby' businesses to bring in extra cash because I was falling short. At the moment, I am in a position of being pretty financially fucked if anything unexpected happens. I'm lucky because I have friends and family that can help me out, but it's still a shitty position to be in.
So yeah, you can get by. You can survive. However, you pretty much live on the edge of stability. If anything out of the ordinary comes up, you go over because you have no buffer. That's one reason people rack up so much credit debt. Something comes up that you have to pay for...put it on the credit card. But you never have extra money to pay it off, so it just builds up.
So yeah, you can get by. You can survive. However, you pretty much live on the edge of stability. If anything out of the ordinary comes up, you go over because you have no buffer. That's one reason people rack up so much credit debt. Something comes up that you have to pay for...put it on the credit card. But you never have extra money to pay it off, so it just builds up.
Exactly, but this is what Scott said:
20,000
Is that even a living wage?
Sure, if you live in the sticks it's a ton.
and
If you're only making that kind of money, you shouldn't be having kids. 20k isn't great, but it's definitely a living wage if you are in an area with a low cost of living. It's possible to live beyond your means no matter how much you make. If you drive a used car, go to state school, and live in the boonies, and don't have kids, 20k is pretty great.
This is simply not true.
Frankly, Nuri, I'm surprised that you were able to live on that type of income at all, and it is a testament to your intelligence and skill that you have the ability to do so. Many who don't have that level of skill probably wouldn't do so well because, as you say, it's a knife's edge. It takes just a nudge to push a person over that edge. It's definitely not a ton, it's not a living wage, and it's not "pretty great".
At the moment, I am in a position of being pretty financially fucked if anything unexpected happens.
Nuri, you have put into words so eloquently the ideas that have been mulling around in my head since I began reading this thread. Thank you. For the record, I agree and second everything in your post.
Joe, keep in mind that we are assuming the most favorable scenario, which is that the $20 k is after taxes. If that was before taxes, I would have laughed at the job offer and said, "Thank you, fuck you, and I hope your dog dies."
I also think Scott should have to actually DO what he says is so easy before he can testify as to its ease. Put up or shut up, Scott. Take a pay cut and move to the boonies. Then you can tell us all how easy it is.
I also think Scott should have to actually DO what he says is so easy before he can testify as to its ease. Put up or shut up, Scott. Take a pay cut and move to the boonies. Then you can tell us all how easy it is.
Find me a computer job in the boonies, and I'll go. Also the boonies must have Internets.
I also think Scott should have to actually DO what he says is so easy before he can testify as to its ease. Put up or shut up, Scott. Take a pay cut and move to the boonies. Then you can tell us all how easy it is.
Find me a computer job in the boonies, and I'll go. Also the boonies must have Internets.
There are lots of "computer" jobs. You'll have to be more specific. Besides, wouldn't you be the best person to find a job that you can do? I'm not saying you have to do it...I'm just saying you shouldn't talk like you KNOW until you actually have some experience. Right now you're pretty much talking out your ass.
Here is a job that has recently gotten a lot of attention from internet legal types. Entry level atty, admitted to NY Bar, personal injury firm in NYC offering 25K after a three month period in which there is no income whatsoever.
Some people have been speculating that this is a joke or a troll, but it's an indication of how tough the private sector is right now.
Wow...That's retarded unless that person went to law school without any loans. If they could afford to pay for law school without any loans, then they probably don't need to take a job with a salary that crappy. That salary is less than what I made with only a BS at an entry-level position...anyone who could get that job could probably get a better job based solely on their undergrad degree.
There's a big difference between having loans to pay off and not. I only had about $100 a month in student loan bills after undergrad, so I could afford a slightly lower salary. That will not be so after law school.
Well, I am doing tech support (rather than sysadmin/other IT stuff), and don't have a degree. But yes, I am underpaid. Five more years of experience, plus a degree from RIT, should rectify this issue.
EDIT: Also, I can't find anywhere else that would pay $20/hour +equity for part-time work.
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"In a world where all hope seems lost . . . "
"In a world that doesn't allow them to express their love . . ."
"In a world where freedom has been lost . . ."
We aren't talking about health care standards for the rest of the world. We are talking about the US. As such, we should base our judgment of standard of living on the US. I don't understand why you guys keep bringing up the argument that we live in relative luxury. No one is disputing it. However, I don't see anyone suggesting that we should force lower class people to live in shanty towns, either. If people lived in aluminum boxes, they could afford rent! Woohoo, a solution to our economic problems! ...Keeping an idea of the scope of this topic in mind might be a good idea.
Regarding income standards:
A single person living in the suburbs of the southeast US can make do with a 20 k take-home income. However, it doesn't leave any room for savings or discretionary costs. You certainly have trouble paying for any unexpected expenses over $1000, like car repairs or medical bills.
Really, to maintain a job anywhere not IN a city, you need at least a car, gas for said car, and insurance. You have to have somewhere to live, so rent. Electric and gas. Internet is pretty necessary for most people these days; I had to be able to work from home if I was called up after hours. Most of my job search and negotiation was through email. Food is also a big expense that many people don't account for.
I made a bit more than 20 k after taxes for the last two years, and I have absolutely zero savings. Every time I saved up any substantial amount of money, I had a car repair or medical bill that required almost exactly what I had saved up. (And that's WITH insurance.) I don't have kids. I don't go on expensive week-long trips to exotic places. I don't eat out very often. I started doing two other 'hobby' businesses to bring in extra cash because I was falling short. At the moment, I am in a position of being pretty financially fucked if anything unexpected happens. I'm lucky because I have friends and family that can help me out, but it's still a shitty position to be in.
So yeah, you can get by. You can survive. However, you pretty much live on the edge of stability. If anything out of the ordinary comes up, you go over because you have no buffer. That's one reason people rack up so much credit debt. Something comes up that you have to pay for...put it on the credit card. But you never have extra money to pay it off, so it just builds up.
Frankly, Nuri, I'm surprised that you were able to live on that type of income at all, and it is a testament to your intelligence and skill that you have the ability to do so. Many who don't have that level of skill probably wouldn't do so well because, as you say, it's a knife's edge. It takes just a nudge to push a person over that edge. It's definitely not a ton, it's not a living wage, and it's not "pretty great".
I also think Scott should have to actually DO what he says is so easy before he can testify as to its ease. Put up or shut up, Scott. Take a pay cut and move to the boonies. Then you can tell us all how easy it is.
Some people have been speculating that this is a joke or a troll, but it's an indication of how tough the private sector is right now.
There's a big difference between having loans to pay off and not. I only had about $100 a month in student loan bills after undergrad, so I could afford a slightly lower salary. That will not be so after law school.
EDIT: Also, I can't find anywhere else that would pay $20/hour +equity for part-time work.