Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
This forum is in permanent archive mode. Our new active community can be found here.
God is Probability
I been thinking recently and I came to the conclusion that when people pray to God, they are praying to Probability. They pray that the results of an action go to their favor. When the chances of a positive outcome are incredibly low, yet they still happen, then that would be considered a miracle. I'm sure I'm not the first to think like this, but I don't know if it has any name. Help?
This is not a thread to discuss the validity of Religion, most of us are atheist (myself included) and preaching to the choir, no pun intended, is useless.
This is not a thread to discuss the validity of Religion, most of us are atheist (myself included) and preaching to the choir, no pun intended, is useless.
Comments
Your argument relies on the idea that people only pray about themselves. Lots of people pray for others, or for the forgiveness of their sins, or other things that do not involve changes, or hoping that a situation will go their way. That's not the only type of prayer there is, and often times even that type tends to revolve more around asking whichever deity they are praying to to allow the event to go the way the deity wants, not the way we want, and that things will work out in their plan. Of course, we still hope that this way is our way, but we know that it won't necessarily be.
But, then again, there are those who pray like you say they do, and in that case, I would agree with you, they are praying to probability, not really to the idea of a deity as it is laid out in religious texts.
Please don't hurt me, please don't hurt me...
And it's not just thanking God/Probability for falling in our favor, which He often doesn't. It's just to let him know that we're here, even when he seems to have abandoned us. You can simplify that further, but you're just looking down on religion for the sake of looking down on religion.
I'll give it to you that any prayers that are centred on something supernatural, like your god, afterlife, that stuff, are not prayers to probability. They're just meaningless.
The closest I came was Treating your speaking with your preferred deity with a little less respect than you feel it deserves, and frankly, if me calling your talking to an invisible being "prayer" makes you feel better, Great, I'll be sure to do that in future, but don't think I'll think of it as much more.
The initial statement wasn't even about your god. The Specific Deity isn't referred to. Assuming someone means your god when they say "God" is just a touch arrogant, don't you think?
And Acting like we don't understand is even more so, When frankly, You're only one God less of an atheist than I am, unless you believe that the entire pantheon of gods across the various cultures of mankind exist, and just assume that yours is the only correct choice, which is even more arrogant again.
Also, The arrogance and Pretentiousness of your previous statements astounds me.
First, you assume that we don't know that people don't just pray for themselves, or just to worship god. Let me drop an idea that might seem insane to you, but Atheism does not equal Amnesia. We didn't just spring into being Godless and loving it, Most of us got there via Christianity (though my apologies if I speak too much for others who took a different path) - in fact, thinking about it, Christianity is one of the biggest producers of Atheists in the world.
Suddenly, I feel like we should bake you all cupcakes or something.
Secondly, you paid no attention when you're told how your problem with the theory fits in - Prayer is Talking to god, And asking him for something is asking an alteration of probability.
But because you didn't take this on board, suddenly, we're the ones who misunderstand you? Pull your head in, mate.
Third, you lump all Atheists not only together, but all together against you. Would you like to be lumped in with Ray Comfort, Those "Left Behind" lunatics, Bibleman, and Jack Chick? If not, don't lump us all together, because we're not all the same - admittedly, We have far fewer crazies to make it offensive, But it's still not cool.
Personally, I think you're a good bloke, but for when you get over-sensitive, leap on your high horse named religion, and start riding yourself into a lather, which is a little annoying.
I don't associate you with those nutballs, so why do you insist on lumping all of us together?
Last of all, I didn't say anything about how you feel when you pray, nor did anyone else. So, I suggest you reign in your indignation about that, because the only person who seems to have interpreted anything said in that way, is you.
EDIT -What is this argument about, then, Axel? It started out as a philosophical discussion of if People are praying to probability, when they pray to their god. You came in, and made it all about you, Your god, and how we Atheists don't understand, Which in a forum known to be full near bursting with Atheists and Agnostics, could easily be considered baiting.
By your own definition, This only confirms your own status as a troll.
As For the question of you being a Ridiculous, Illogical and stupid person, Well, that's alright, so is just about everyone else on the planet, so you're in decent company.
Aside from that, to address your point - I'm not "You guys" I'm "Churba" - if you're going to reply to my statements, then reply to me.
Allow me to lay this out for you.
You ask your god to alter events in your favor. This often has no more measurable effect than asking Probability, as you said yourself, "He often doesn't" - and His influence is not able to be measured.
You Pray to him, to let you know you're still there, and still believe in his influence, so on, so forth.
You ask probability to fall in your favor. This Has no more measurable effect than asking your god, and when it does, the effect of your asking upon probability is not able to be measured.
If you were to believe that your asking probability to fall in your favor was something that worked, You'd probably attempt to speak to probability outside of asking for things, to attempt to keep it's favor.
So, Where's the difference, outside of the name?
And pardon my attempt to predict what you'll respond with, but this isn't an issue of emotion. Some people pray to Allah in the same fashion and probably have similar emotions, others show their devotion for The Goddess, some people Have their rituals to Satan, but you're not arguing for any of them, are you?
On top of that, Were someone to believe in probability this way, they would most likely feel the same way when they "Spoke" to probability. You can't make an issue of Emotion, unless your emotion is a unique experience to your religion, which is the height of arrogance to assume.
Anyways, that argument does exist for all religions, so long as that's why they're praying to their deity.
I'm not going to argue that you're wrong completely, because again, you're not. But you and the others who have posted in here have missed my point, again. My point is that not all prayer of all religions can be lumped into this. There are things that we pray about, or just ways in which we pray, that have no similarity to probability at all. And we don't do it just to keep our deity's favor, we do it because we want to. Most people don't understand this, but I have a deep connection to my personal god. A lot of people, as you, Churba, seem to be doing, assume that all people pray out of fear, or misguidance. That's not the case, I willingly make this choice. That makes me irrational, I know, and I don't care.
The only argument here is whether or not all prayer is praying to probability, and as someone who prays more often than all of you, I would assume you would be fascinated to hear what someone on the "inside" has to say about your theory. I would also assume that you would take what I say as being important, since as Atheists and logicians, so to speak, you have rejected the idea of prayer, regardless of background, and thus no longer have the same insight as a current believer does.
As for my argument that you were talking about knowing my emotions, I was speaking of: You're interpreting why this fits your idea of God=Probability in our minds, but I argue that you're wrong. You still argue that your point stands. However, your argument is about what my mind is perceiving, what it is thinking of or "wishing for" when it prays. That is something you don't know, and therefore your argument falls flat. Now, I was wrong to claim that you were simplifying my beliefs for the sake of doing it, and the sake of being mean, but it is hard to interpret it otherwise. I apologize if I offended you.
Edit: That was directed at Nine, sorry, not you. He came in and said something that was trolling, not you. Unless you realize this. He was getting into an argument about how ridiculous our beliefs are, which is trying to bait me into an argument about the validity of religion. That's not what this is about, it seems to be about prayer and the thoughts/emotions/ideas behind it.
- An attempt to get a deity to intercede with the course of events
- Ritual
- A different way of talking to yourself
Churba, what is behind your capitalisation of some words?Sorry, I was unaware of your affiliation.
I also blame the internet as a poor means of communicating tone and body language, which is half of a conversation. Without it, I am free to make up what I think those things would be, and my mind always jumps to the worst.
Again, sorry, and I will try in the future to assume less. Nine's post seemed very much like an attack at the time, so it put me on the offensive.
Amitabaha