Trijicon fuck up

Andrew

I'm curious to get some discussion on a recent event that has popped up in the DoD community. A large manufacturer of rifle sights has recently been discovered to have placed references to bible verses on these sights. Apart from the obvious separation for church/state issues, I find this to be a huge threat to the security of our forces in country. Not only can it be used as a propaganda tool for Al Queda and other insurgent groups. What is everyone else's thoughts on the matter?

George Patches

Apart from the obvious separation for church/state issues

What is everyone else's thoughts on the matter?

I think you're trying to make a religious/state debate out of a very minor coincidence.

Andrew

I think you're trying to make a religious/state debate out of a very minor coincidence.

How is it a coincidence when the company is very outgoing that it deliberately put the references there? From what I've heard, the whole company is very bible-tastic and evangelical.

George Patches

How is it a coincidence when the company is very outgoing that it deliberately put the references there? From what I've heard, the whole company is very bible-tastic and evangelical.

Even if they are, who gives a fuck? They're rifle scopes! As long as they keep their center well and don't fog up it doesn't matter what the fuck is on the side. Now if there was something functionally wrong with the scopes and they where causing soldiers to miss, then you'd have my attention. This is just slow news day crap.

Kate Monster

How is it a coincidence when the company is very outgoing that it deliberately put the references there? From what I've heard, the whole company is very bible-tastic and evangelical.

Even if they are, who gives a fuck? They're rifle scopes! As long as they keep their center well and don't fog up it doesn't matter what the fuck is on the side. Now if there was something functionally wrong with the scopess and they where causing soldiers to miss, then you'd have my attention. This is just slow news day crap.

If you are someone who "votes with your money" and chooses not to support companies based on personal values, then "giving a fuck" makes sense.

Churba

Even if they are, who gives a fuck? They're rifle scopes! As long as they keep their center well and don't fog up it doesn't matter what the fuck is on the side. Now if there was something functionally wrong with the scopess and they where causing soldiers to miss, then you'd have my attention. This is just slow news day crap.

I must agree. I don't care if my rifle optics are COVERED in Bible verses, references to them, or anything else, as long as it works correctly.

Andrew

Even if they are, who gives a fuck? They're rifle scopes! As long as they keep their center well and don't fog up it doesn't matter what the fuck is on the side. Now if there was something functionally wrong with the sites and they where causing soldiers to miss, then you'd have my attention. This is just slow news day crap.

Islamic zealots give a fuck. There is a reason why the military has delineated very specific rules on religious materials. While this may be small, having shit like this contains a huge possibility to fuck up American foreign policy. Do you honestly want our soldiers to essentially be walking god warriors, however subtle that may be?

George Patches

If you are someone who "votes with your money" and chooses not to support companies based on personal values, then "giving a fuck" makes sense.

Here's the thing. Trijicon makes the best scopes, period. Now would rather send soldiers into battle with inferior equipment, or send them into battle with something that may have a bible reference if you look really hard.

George Patches

Do you honestly want our soldiers to essentially be walking god warriors, however subtle that may be?

If they're god warriors because they hit what they're aiming at because they have good scopes, then yes.

Andrew

Here's the thing. Trijicon makes the best scopes, period. Now would rather send soldiers into battle with inferior equipment, or send them into battle with something that may have a bible reference if you look really hard.

I'm not saying they should replace all the RCOs out there, just fine the shit out of Trijicon and make sure all new optics don't have little "Fuck Hajis" messages on the side.

If they're god warriors because they hit what they're aiming at because they have good scopes, then yes.

This is exactly the fucking political ignorance that makes us fail in the Middle East.

Nuri

I think no one freaking looks at a serial number except for one purpose, and that purpose is not for inspiration or religion. It's for keeping track of shit. I think anyone who looks at the thing and knows what it means or refers to already knows about the Bible, so WTF is the big deal? It's not like they're saying only Christians can use the gun. It's not like we're throwing Jesus-shaped grenades and waging war in the name of the Christian God because the company that makes the sights got a little creative with their numbering system. This is about as terrible as Disney animators hiding gags in the animations and cover art of the movies.

Honestly, I don't think Al Queda has any trouble finding things to use as propaganda. If they didn't have this, they'd us something else. It's not going to change anything.

However, politically, it is a bad move. Dur.

George Patches

This is exactly the fucking political ignorance that makes us fail in the Middle East.

No, it's the fact that we're shooting at middle easterners. We're outsiders meddling in their affairs. They don't need bible references on rifle scopes to drum up support. "Well I wasn't going to be a terrorist until I discovered the bible references on the infidels' scopes."

Kate Monster

My problem is more with tax money going to companies with such obvious religious agendas. Regardless of foreign policy issues, I don't want my money going to a company like that and I don't want US soldiers carrying around religious materials without their individual consent and knowledge. It pisses me off enough that all my currency makes reference to a deity.

Andrew

No, it's the fact that we're shooting at middle easterners. We're outsiders meddling in their affairs. They don't need bible references on rifle scopes to drum up support. "Well I wasn't going to be a terrorist until I discovered the bible references on the infidels' scopes."

The issue of us involving ourselves in political affairs is one in which there is room for Muslims to disagree about fighting. It is a political battle we can win. Shooting Muslims with "Jesus Rifles" takes it to the next level. It is the duty of all Muslims to go to war if we make this into a legit Jihad, a battle we cannot win politically. Being indignant about deliberate Christan references and having a little "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" about Christian overtones in this war is not helping us in the long run. Sure this may be small, but outing companies publicly like this now can save us in the long run when they might get more bold in their references in the future.

This is about as terrible as Disney animators hiding gags in the animations and cover art of the movies.

Except people don't go to war over Disney movies.

Rym

I routinely serialize things I'm working on with references to mythology. THOR1 and THOR2 for versions of a table, Heimdall-x for a bridge, etc... How is this any different?

George Patches

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this issue. I'm done here.

Nuri

This is about as terrible as Disney animators hiding gags in the animations and cover art of the movies.

Except people don't go to war over Disney movies.

People don't go to war over serial numbers on rifle sights, either.

Rym

How do you know that isn't just Series 2, Core 4, revision 6?

Andrew

How do you know that isn't just Series 2, Core 4, revision 6?

One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

George Patches

ow do you know that isn't just Series 2, Core 4, revision 6?

Some one high up in Trijicon (can't remember who) admited they were bible references.

EDIT: Yeah, that article. So now we're clear, this isn't a coincidence. Argue amongst yourselves.

Rym

Yeah, that article. So now we're clear, this isn't a coincidence. Argue amongst yourselves.

Still no different than me using Thor or Odin in my variable names.

Sail

Still no different than me using Thor or Odin in my variable names.

But do you believe that naming them as such will give your computing magical power?

Andrew

Still no different than me using Thor or Odin in my variable names.

These aren't the serial codes. These are extraneous references that have nothing to do with the tracking of optics in the field and batch numbers. They just happen to be next to the serial numbers. Also, it's a bit of a strawman to reference personal codifying standards using mythological names when discussing a very real and palpable religious tension between the West and the Islamic states.

George Patches

Still no different than me using Thor or Odin in my variable names.

And I still prefer our troops having great, slightly religiously themed equipment rather than poor equipment that gets them injured.

Andrew

And I still prefer our troops having great, slightly religiously themed equipment rather than poor equipment that gets them injured.

Why not just have great equipment without the references? I'm not saying stop buying Trijicon scopes, just remove the bible references.

George Patches

Why not just have great equipment without the references? I'm not saying stop buying Trijicon scopes, just remove the bible references.

I'm not against this, but I'm not gonna get wound up if the Jebus rifles see field duty.

Andrew

I'm not against this, but I'm not gonna get wound up if the Jebus rifles see field duty.

They have and more than likely will continue to be used for a long time. However, this is more of an issue of a company willingly violating General Order #1 and subverting U.S. foreign policy. Obviously, this isn't the end all, be all of issues today, but it's important enough to take action against.

theknoxinator

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

I'm trying to figure out why this is news at all. Probably just a media distraction to divert attention away from something else that is actually important. I completely agree with George on this one. As long as the products they make are good, I don't give a fuck what they choose to believe in. I admit that I'm as anti-established religion as the next guy, but I am not for the secular movement trying to crush our history.

"Sorry Mr. Bindon, but we're going to have to remove part of your legacy because it seems to offend a few people. We understand that you devoted a large part of your life to creating devices that allow our soldiers to do their jobs with as few casualties as possible, and for that we are truly grateful. But we just have this small problem with your beliefs because there are some people who don't agree with you. We appreciate your understanding in this matter." I can't condone that.

Kate Monster

Yeah, that article. So now we're clear, this isn't a coincidence. Argue amongst yourselves.

Still no different than me using Thor or Odin in my variable names.

Are tax payer funds going to purchase said items and does your company have a known religious agenda?

George Patches

it's important enough to take action agains

I think this would have been handled much better behind closed doors. Speaking as a gov't contractor, when the gov't asks you to do something, they're just being polite. What they mean is you better have a damn good reason if you don't do it. Getting the media involved only puts Trijicon on the defensive because of people like you getting all excited about the impacts to foreign policy. In their mind they're just trying to give the soldiers the blessing of god so that they'll hopefully go home to their families alive. So a minor contract issue has been turned into a PR nightmare, because there's no way to reconcile the two extremes in this matter.

Andrew

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions"have always been there"and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has saidthe practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africawho was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

I'm trying to figure out why this is news at all. Probably just a media distraction to divert attention away from something else that is actually important. I completely agree with George on this one. As long as the products they make are good, I don't give a fuck what they choose to believe in. I admit that I'm as anti-established religion as the next guy, but I am not for the secular movement trying to crush our history.

"Sorry Mr. Bindon, but we're going to have to remove part of your legacy because it seems to offend a few people. We understand that you devoted a large part of your life to creating devices that allow our soldiers to do their jobs with as few casualties as possible, and for that we are truly grateful. But we just have this small problem with your beliefs because there are some people who don't agree with you. We appreciate your understanding in this matter." I can't condone that.

And just what history would that be?