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Claims: Real or Randi

Kate MonsterKate Monster
edited February 2010 in Everything Else
We all come across claims from various sources regarding wellness, politics, science, etc. that could be viable or bullshit. While there are many skeptic societies and resources for investigating various claims, there can often be conflicting information, limited research materials, or simply limited time for which to research the various claims. Based on these limitations, perhaps we can pool our expertise, time, and past research in order to help each other sift truth from the bullshit.

To get us started, I recently heard a friend claim that any shampoo or conditioner containing sulfates (which most do) actually dried the scalp and damaged hair and that conditioners with silicone are "bad" for hair. Has anyone else come across this claim? Is there any validity to it? If these products are damaging to the hair and scalp - how damaging are they? I have looked this up briefly on google, but I can't really find anything definitive. I've mostly seen these claims from companies that are selling sulfate and/or silicone free products which colors the claims they are making. Any insights?

Comments

  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    To get us started, I recently heard a friend claim that any shampoo or conditioner containing sulfates (which most do) actually dried the scalp and damaged hair and that conditioners with silicone are "bad" for hair. Has anyone else come across this claim? Is there any validity to it? If these products are damaging to the hair and scalp - how damaging are they? I have looked this up briefly on google, but I can't really find anything definitive. I've mostly seen these claims from companies that are selling sulfate and/or silicone free products which colors the claims they are making. Any insights?
    Although SLES is considered safe at the concentrations used in cosmetic products, it is an irritant similar to other detergents, with the irritation increasing with concentration.[2] SLES has been shown to produce eye or skin irritation in experimental animals and in some human test subjects.[2] The related surfactant sodium laureth sulfate is a known irritant,[4][5] and research suggests that SLES can also cause irritation after extended exposure in some people.[6][7]/blockquote>
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    edited February 2010
    To get us started, I recently heard a friend claim that any shampoo or conditioner containing sulfates (which most do) actually dried the scalp and damaged hair and that conditioners with silicone are "bad" for hair. Has anyone else come across this claim? Is there any validity to it? If these products are damaging to the hair and scalp - how damaging are they? I have looked this up briefly on google, but I can't really find anything definitive. I've mostly seen these claims from companies that are selling sulfate and/or silicone free products which colors the claims they are making. Any insights?
    PubMed is your friend.

    This is the first place anyone should go when looking into the validity of anything even remotely health-related. The research will take a while, and the reading is dense and often nearly incomprehensible if you're not intimately familiar with the field you're researching. However, it is the purest source of information you can possibly find.

    I do know that many many things can lead to a dry scalp. Shower temperature is probably a much bigger factor than the "harshness" of a particular shampoo.

    The problem with shampoo claims is that it's not really a thoroughly researched area. People can make claims - that their shampoo is "pH balanced" for your benefit - and provide no context as to the meaning of those claims.

    In cases like that, just disbelieve. There's no resolving the disbelief; simply disbelieve and move on. It's all you can do.

    I've always wanted to do an example of debunking as the meat of a presentation on critical thinking. Maybe I'll get around to doing that with some anti-milk sites.

    EDIT: I love Wikipedia, but read that article carefully and look at the sources. Remember, the precise wording in medical literature is extremely important. Do not read into it. Let me dissect some of those references for you.

    From this article, which is reference 4 for the SLES article:
    The skin response to sodium lauryl sulphate was found to be statistically significantly increased in atopic patients compared with controls when evaluated by visual scoring and by increase in skin thickness, but not by increase in transepidermal water loss, blood flow or skin colour.
    Emphasis is mine. This conclusion is stating that, in patients who have extant atopic dermatitis, SLS (NOT SLES) causes irritation via thickened skin, but it does not significantly affect the rate of water loss.
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Kate MonsterKate Monster
    edited February 2010
    I guess the question is this: Is sulfate any better or worse than alternative detergents for cleaning without causing dryness? Thanks, Pete.

    Also, I do not take ANYTHING on wikipedia as truth until I can find multiple, legitimate sources backing it up. Of course I read the wiki article, but that - to me - is about as worthwhile as reading a 6th grader's research paper on any given subject.
    Post edited by Kate Monster on
  • lackofcheeselackofcheese
    Also, I do not take ANYTHING on wikipedia as truth until I can find multiple, legitimate sources backing it up. Of course I read the wiki article, but that - to me - it is about as worthwhile as reading a 6th grader's research paper on any given subject.
    That's why Wikipedia has references.
  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    edited February 2010
    EDIT: I love Wikipedia, but read that article carefully and look at the sources. Remember, theprecise wordingin medical literature is extremely important. Do not read into it.
    Yeah, I know. I checked the abstracts (one from the Archives of Dermatology, one on PubMed, both done by MDs in clinical settings), and it would *appear* that SLS does indeed cause scalp irritation certain quantities. It is difficult to know whether or not regular shampooing would introduce enough SLS to the scalp to cause significant irritation, but it is present in high quantities in almost all shampoos (and a lot of body washes and shaving creams), so it's possible.

    I've heard of people with scalp irritation getting some relief after being advised to stop using products with SLS, but that's strictly anecdotal. However, on the topic of damaging one's hair, it looks to be extremely unlikely. I can't find anything about that anywhere.
    Post edited by WindUpBird on
  • GreyHugeGreyHuge
    Speaking of which, there is one of those Randi-Bullshit things in the ad bar right now. Become Invisible!
  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    Speaking of which, there is one of those Randi-Bullshit things in the ad bar right now. Become Invisible!
    It really works! Just ask the ancient Sumerians!
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    I want to buy it, my curiosity is reaching critical mass.
  • GreyHugeGreyHuge
    I want to buy it, my curiosity is reaching critical mass.
    I don't think you are in danger, you are nowhere near critical density.
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    But I really want to know what they send in the package!
  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    But I really want to know what they send in the package!
    The secret, of course! The secret to INVISIBILITY!
  • GreyHugeGreyHuge
    From what I read they send you some book that contains the secret. The ink may or may not be invisible.
  • ChurbaChurba
    Speaking of which, there is one of those Randi-Bullshit things in the ad bar right now. Become Invisible!
    Amusingly, since I use Adblock, it is.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    edited February 2010
    Of course I read the wiki article, but that - to me - is about as worthwhile as reading a 6th grader's research paper on any given subject.
    Well, Wikipedia is often fairly accurate, so I wouldn't go that far. However, you should always look at the references. It's a fantastic jumping-off point.
    However, on the topic of damaging one's hair, it looks to be extremely unlikely.
    It's worth noting that all detergents, soaps, and surfactants damage your hair to some extent or another. They wash out the oils that are normally responsible for keeping hair supple and healthy, which results in dry hair. That's why excessive washing of any body part results in dryness. We use conditioner to add moisture back into the hair. I have no idea about that silicone business or how it would be "bad" for your hair, but I'm dubious.

    EDIT:
    but it is present in high quantities in almost all shampoos (and a lot of body washes and shaving creams), so it's possible.
    Pop quiz, hotshot. Here are the questions:

    1. Go back to the cited studies from that Wiki article. What were the levels of exposure to SLS in the study?

    2. What is the level of SLS normally found in shampoo? Get numbers from 5 different well-known brands.

    3. In what form were subjects exposed to the SLS in the studies?
    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • RymRym
    I never have dry skin problems.

    I simply do the following:

    1. Soap is only ever used on the hands, armpits, genitals, feet, and ass. The rest of the body just gets the water treatment. Many days, no soap whatsoever is used.
    2. Shampoo (medicated) is only used every three days, sparingly, to prevent dandruff.
    3. Conditioner is used every shower, but really only to detangle the ends of the hair.
  • WalkerWalker

    1. Soap is only ever used on the hands, armpits, genitals, feet, and ass.
    Ah, The Carlin Method; very wise.
  • VhdbloodVhdblood
    But I really want to know what they send in the package!
    I found a copy of the book somewhere online a while back. Basically, they make you trick your mind so that, eventually, you can look in a mirror and you won't be able to see yourself.
  • ChurbaChurba
    I found a copy of the book somewhere online a while back. Basically, they make you trick your mind so that, eventually, you can look in a mirror and you won't be able to see yourself.
    Actually, that's pretty awesome. I'd buy that for a dollar.
  • FunfetusFunfetus
    Basically, they make you trick your mind so that, eventually, you can look in a mirror and you won't be able to see yourself.
    I see an Amazon Women On The Moon scenario coming up:
  • Kate MonsterKate Monster
    I never have dry skin problems.

    I simply do the following:

    1. Soap is only ever used on the hands, armpits, genitals, feet, and ass. The rest of the body just gets the water treatment. Many days, no soap whatsoever is used.
    2. Shampoo (medicated) is only used every three days, sparingly, to prevent dandruff.
    3. Conditioner is used every shower, but really only to detangle the ends of the hair.
    That works really well for certain skin types, but ir really doesn't translate for people with combination skin, sensitive skin, oily skin, or acne issues. It can also be terrible for people with thin hair.
  • RymRym
    That works really well for certain skin types, but ir really doesn't translate for people with combination skin, sensitive skin, oily skin, or acne issues.
    Yeah. Even my situation is complicated. I had to really keep track to figure out exactly how to control my dandruff.
  • WindUpBirdWindUpBird
    but it is present in high quantities in almost all shampoos (and a lot of body washes and shaving creams), so it's possible.
    Pop quiz, hotshot. Here are the questions:

    1. Go back to the cited studies from that Wiki article. What were the levels of exposure to SLS in the study?

    2. What is the level of SLS normally found in shampoo? Get numbers from 5 different well-known brands.

    3. In what form were subjects exposed to the SLS in the studies?
    I am bested. The abstracts only specify that different dilutions were used, and that leads me to believe (again, making an assumption) that the subjects were exposed to nothing but SLS in solution. Then you have the other agents in shampoo that are put there to counterbalance the properties of various other ingredients. As for levels, I can only find that SLS is the "most common detergent" in shampoo. As you said earlier, it appears to not be deeply researched.

    So, there you go.
  • TheWhaleSharkTheWhaleShark
    So, there you go.
    Yup. It's OK. I couldn't find that information either, which means it's impossible to really draw a conclusion. It appears that SLS can cause irritation, but at least according to one study, it doesn't significantly affect moisture loss. Whether or not there's enough in shampoo to elicit that response, or any irritation response, is unknown.

    Welcome to critical thinking. :P

    It's worth noting, however, that I don't need to know those things in order to dash that woman's claims. What I've demonstrated is that we have insufficient evidence to support her sweeping conclusion, and we need to demand further evidence from her in support of her claims or else we reject them.
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