HD Video Camera

Rym

So, we're in the market for an HD video camera. We have few real needs:

1. At least 720p
2. Able to stream video in a manner that could be used as a webcam
3. (optional) ORAble to stream in a manner that Adobe OnLocation could record properly

Does anyone have any suggestions? Price is a relatively minor factor (though we're not buying a Red camera, obviously).

Churba

Price is a relatively minor factor (though we're not buying a Red camera, obviously).

Price is a relatively minor factor, as in how minor?
Because you can pick up a Red Scarlet 2/3 8x Bundle(Brain, lens, side CF module, REDmote, 2.8 LCD touchscreen, redvolt battery and a travel charger) for only about $4750, which is about three hundred less than a high end Canon DSLR, like a EOS-1D Mark IV, which won't do as decent video, and almost certainly won't stream anything.

Or do you want the "Price is a minor factor, but somewhat more than it seems by the statement" kinda cameras, like for example, a decent Everio, which will shoot in 1080p, but propably won't be able to be used to stream video, however, I'm not sure on that point, and clock in at about a grand.

Or are we talking "I can talk the talk, but I ain't gonna walk the walk" kinda stuff, like for example, a Sony Cybershot H20, which you can pick up for about 250 bucks?

Victor Frost

This seems to be the BEST way. Get a regular HD camcorder and hook it up to a tricaster. There are some good bundles there.

Churba

This seems to be the BEST way. Get a regular HD camcorder and hook it up to atricaster.There are some good bundles there.

Any idea of the prices on those? They're all giving you three cameras per bundle, the cheapest of which comes in at around 700 bucks, plus a set of accessories for each, plus a tricaster that comes in at four grand, plus cases, plus software.

The cheapest one above that, with the three larger camera, the XH A1, which clocks in at about four grand PER CAMERA, plus the accessories, plus the four grand tricaster, plus the software..

Apreche

OK, guys. Think about this for a second. The RED camera is great, but we're not going to get one without winning the lottery. Even if the camera itself comes in at an affordable level, it's still not affordable. The cost of storing, trasmitting, and processing video of that resolution is way out of our league. It's clearly too much for UStream and such.

Secondly, we know about the tricaster. It's also clearly far too advanced for our current needs, though that may change a few years from now.

All we want is an HD camcorder that can also be used as a webcam when you connect it to a computer with USB or some such. Also consider an HD camcorder that has HDMI out combined with a video capture card that can act as a webcam and has HDMI input.

Luke Burrage

Asking about a camera and asking about a camcorder are two different things. I can understand the confusion. Personally I'd get a Canon DSLR like the 550D. They have HDMI out at 1080p.

Churba

OK, guys. Think about this for a second.

I did. Do you expect me to pull the numbers outta your heads by magic, maybe?
Rym gave a very vauge price point, and I asked for clarification, with examples of the levels I was thinking of - Not much more I can do with so little information.

Based on what you've said, I'll refine my search. Give me an upper price point, and I'll refine it even further.

George Patches

Yeah, that request Rym gave was pretty vague.

Apreche

Yeah, that request Rym gave was pretty vague.

The price was vague, but none of the suggestions so far meet the requirements which are non-vague. An HD camera that can be directly connected to a computer and recognized as a webcam. This is as opposed to my camcorder, which when connected to the computer is only recognized as a storage device.

Rym

OnLocation support would be extra nice, what with us having OnLocation. (It doesn't work with cheap cameras...)

George Patches

The price was vague

...and remains vague.

Luke Burrage

Give us a price.

Rym

Give us a price.

Fine. Under $2,500. ^_~

Churba

All we want is an HD camcorder that can also be used as a webcam when you connect it to a computer with USB or some such.

This is quite workable. For what you're looking to do, you've got more options than you can beat with a stick. The JVC Everio GZ-MG670 is a pretty good little number for about five hundred bucks, and if you want to really lash out at it, you can pick up a Handycam HDR-SR12 for about a grand eight, maybe two grand flat at the most, and it's a very solid HD camera - though you might want to get them to toss in a HDMI cable, as it doesn't come with one in the box.

I don't know if a HDMI video capture card will do anything with OnLocation, I've never worked with it before, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't.

So, Now tell me why that's not a suitable option, so I can give you a better recommendation.

Apreche

JVC Everio GZ-MG670, Handycam HDR-SR12

Just looked these up. Where does it say that either of these can be used as a web-cam?

Churba

Just looked these up. Where does it say that either of these can be used as a web-cam?

My apologies, I misquoted. I meant to quote this -

Also consider an HD camcorder that has HDMI out combined with a video capture card that can act as a webcam and has HDMI input.

Apreche

Also consider an HD camcorder that has HDMI out combined with a video capture card that can act as a webcam and has HDMI input.

Yeah, so what capture card?

Churba

Yeah, so what capture card?

Buggered if I know, yet. I'm still finding that part out. It's rather less my area than the cameras themselves.

Edit - After a look about, is This acceptable for what you need?

HeavyCruiserLost

This is what my camera guy told me when I "popped" the "question:"

"an HDV camera would be the best option because it can record native 720p frame sizes (i.e. 1280x720). The DVCProHD cameras do not. The Sony Z1U is a nice HDV camcorder which can also record DV and DVCam. It has firewire in/out. Actually any HDV camcorder works. The [Canon]HV40 is a small but powerful HDV camcorder that is matched picture quality wise with the [Sony]EX1."

For any of this to make sense you'll have skim the Wikipedia on all these standards and formats (HDV/DVCProHD/DV/DVCam), something I am sure you've already (regrettably) begun. Anywhoo, the Sonys kick 11 kinds of ass, but break your budget, so I'd take a look at the Canon HV40. I think you can get one of those puppies for under a k. Hope this helps!

Churba

The Z1U is a mighty fine camera indeed even if it's a touch outdated, but it doesn't stream via Firewire, it only acts as a storage device, but admittedly, that's off the top of my head, so I could be remembering wrong.

However, the Canon HV40 is not suitable for what they're asking. You can't stream in via PC connection unless you use a capture card, and then only in high def if you have a Video capture card that can deal with High-def component video - it has no HDMI out.

Though, The only way the HV40 is the equal to the EX1 is if you're having a particularly vivid dream. Simply, there is no way a thousand dollar consumer grade videocassette camera is going to stand up against a seven thousand dollar professional grade digital video camera.

Edit - Sorry if I come off as a little harsh, I pretty much type the way I talk - it's much different to the actual tone of voice it'd say it in, were I speaking, rather than typing. Don't mean to sound like a dick, but when you write down what I say, it's what happens.

Mycroft000

Actually, coming from the HD video production industry. What might possibly be your best bet is either the Canon 5D MkII or the Canon 7D. They both shoot 1920x1080p; the 5D sells for $2500 body only, $3400 with a high quality lens; the 7D sells for $1600, body only. They both use HDMI output, and can be used with video capture software(though you can't be recording on the 5D and still output HD on the HDMI). Both cameras make better pictures than the current highest quality professional HD video cameras on the market, and are quickly being adopted by the film and video production industry because of the low cost of camera, lenses, and media.

Edit: P.S. The RED camera is good, but the Canons both make better pictures than it as well. See the following:

Churba

Actually, coming from the HD video production industry.

If you are, I bow to your expertise. Though, I did know the canons took better pictures - I will admit, I'm a bit of a canon fanboy when it comes to my personal use(The only non-canon camera I've bought for personal use is a 40-something year old East German Practica film camera), but I suppose at least I recognize this.
I suggested the Red because of it's modular nature(you can upgrade all of the parts when needed rather than having to buy a new camera, unlike the canons, where you have a choice between "Buy body" and "Buy lens"), and because I'm pretty sure you can stream the scarlet straight into your computer, as well as control it from the computer directly - but that's irrelevant, because it's too expensive.

Apreche

How do we connect the non-webcams to the computer and get them to stream and record simultaneously?

Churba

How do we connect the non-webcams to the computer and get them to stream and record simultaneously?

You can usually record and output at the same time, but if not, you're stuck with recording the HDMI stream from the camera.

Also, I feel I should note for completeness, there are a number of HD webcams about - such as the Logitech pro 9000 (which I can vouch for personally), the Microsoft Lifecam Cinema, and the Logitech quickcam orbit AF, which also has computer controllable pan and tilt. They Record to 720P Natively, connect directly to your computer with USB. Light, portable. Will be fine for doing your live stream - shit, for less than most of the cameras we've specified, you could buy three or four of them.

Apreche

You can usually record and output at the same time, but if not, you're stuck with recording the HDMI stream from the camera.

I don't think you're understanding me. How do you record the HDMI stream and also stream it to UStream? Specific hardware, software, instructions.

Also, I feel I should note for completeness, there are a number of HD webcams about - such as the Logitech pro 9000 (which I can vouch for personally), the Microsoft Lifecam Cinema, and the Logitech quickcam orbit AF, which also has computer controllable pan and tilt. They Record to 720P Natively, connect directly to your computer with USB. Light, portable. Will be fine for doing your live stream - shit, for less than most of the cameras we've specified, you could buy three or four of them.

I have a Logitech 9000 and Rym has a Microsoft Lifecam. If we wanted a webcam, we wouldn't need to make a thread asking for one. The problem with webcams is that they have tiny lenses. They can't zoom in and out easily. You can't mount them on a tripod. They can't record to themselves. They're pretty much just webcams. We want all the camera-ness of an HD camcorder, we just want to also be able to stream that video to UStream while it is also being recorded.

Rym

We want all the camera-ness of an HD camcorder, we just want to also be able to stream that video to UStream while it is also being recorded.

This is how I roll with the audio, btw. The Marantz is not only a great portable SSR, but it functions as an external soundcard with phantom power. A camera that did the same with video would be stupidly useful.

For our PAXing (details forthcoming), you should see the crazy rig I made by attaching a webcam to our handycam. It's ridiculous.

Churba

I don't think you're understanding me. How do you record the HDMI stream and also stream it to UStream? Specific hardware, software, instructions.

I'm understanding you quite well, but that doesn't change what I don't know. That's not the sort of experience or knowledge I have with video. I'm trying my best here - but I've never used Ustream, nor do I have that much experience with video capture cards, all of my video experience is with filming it and then editing afterward. I can tell you all about good cameras, but I can't tell you about things I don't know or have no experience with.

I have a Logitech 9000 and Rym has a Microsoft Lifecam. If we wanted a webcam, we wouldn't need to make a thread asking for one. The problem with webcams is that they have tiny lenses. They can't zoom in and out easily. You can't mount them on a tripod. They can't record to themselves. They're pretty much just webcams

I figured on most of that - that you'd already have a HD cam, that you wouldn't bother asking for one if you needed one, as you know what you're talking about, and the attendant problems, but as reasonable of an assumption as it is, it's still an assumption, so I figured I should say something on them, as I said, for the sake of completeness.

We want all the camera-ness of an HD camcorder, we just want to also be able to stream that video to UStream while it is also being recorded.

This is where I'm running into trouble. I'm hunting pretty hard, but as best I can tell, an all in one solution for your needs doesn't exist, and since I don't know anyone who uses a HD camcorder for this application, I can't turn around and ask someone. I can't go from experience, because as I said, I don't have any with that application. The nearest thing I've done was using a RED one on direct computer control, and streaming it to another device in the same building, where it was being recorded - and that wasn't my setup, I was just an operator.

As best I can tell, if it's possible, your best option is to stream from a video capture card or some similar hardware to Ustream, while you record on the camera. I don't know if or how you would achieve this. I'm looking into it. If I find out, I'll tell you.

For our PAXing (details forthcoming), you should see the crazy rig I made by attaching a webcam to our handycam. It's ridiculous.

Bonus credit if you also attached it to a homemade Steadicam-alike rig.

Rym

I'm not looking for detailed research. I basically just wondered if anyone had any top-of-the-head suggestions. ^_~

Churba

I'm not looking for detailed research. I basically just wondered if anyone had any top-of-the-head suggestions. ^_~

I thought so, but Scott asked for specifics, and I don't want to suggest something that turns out to be an utter pile of arse.

Mycroft000

My problem with the RED, and its offspring, is that the camera itself is inexpensive in comparison to other professional HD cameras, but in order to actually be able to use the RED you have to spend somewhere between $40,000 and $200,000 depending on exactly how fully stocked you want to be. The high-end Canon DSLR cameras that shoot native 1920x1080 video produce better video than the RED, or the Sony HDW-F900 Cine Alta, or really any of the professional HD video cameras that are currently on the market.

The Canon 5D has an 35mm size imager and that's how it makes video that looks so much better than anything else on the market. If you want to record to it and to the computer at the same time then you would probably want to go with the 7D because it will continue to send out an HD video output from the HDMI where the 5D switches to SD when you record on the camera. They're both extremely cheap for the quality of video that they record, $4000-$12000 for a camera package that would allow you to produce a feature film that looks better than anything else currently available.

Currently I know of no good solutions to using a real video camera as a webcam because neither USB or Firewire are capable of taking in a 1080p image in real time. But with the suggestion of the HDMI video capture card you can do that for relatively cheap, and have a camera that is insanely good as a still camera or video camera. The only limitations on the Canon cameras as video cameras is that you can't zoom with them the same way you can with an actual video camera, but as long as you're not needing to zoom with it, I can't think of a better option.

Rym

Hmmm...

Hmmmmmm....

I'm getting real close to buying a real camera. The Flip has its sync issues, and our handycam's SD really shows badly now that we're using it for anything.