but I think your comparison of Rock to Heavy metal is seriously flawed.
Note that I said "big arena rock" versus "extreme metal." They are very, very, very different things. Metallica, for example, is more like big arena rock.
AC/DC and Van Halen are very accessible. Emperor and Gorgoroth are not. The difference is in the amount of willingness one must have in order to extract enjoyment. This is exactly the same contrast as people who go to church for the socializing and going through the motions, and people who are hardcore about their beliefs. Both lead to spiritual experiences, but of a very different sort.
For what it's worth, I think I felt much the same thing at a lot of the punk shows I used to go to.
Yeah, they're pretty much the same in that regard. I think metal is a bit more group-focused and punk is a bit more individual-focused, but it's a relatively minor difference.
I think it's a difference in demeanor. The punk crowd is heavily entwined with the DIY mindset, and in my experience, tends to focus more on individual enjoyment rather than enjoying as a group. I do occasionally see small groups of punks together, but they're usually few in number. Metal fans tend to flock together a bit more, and focus more on the actual crowd dynamic rather than the individual dynamic. I see a lot more lone punks in a pit than I do lone metal heads.
I'm also on the east coast, so that might factor in. We're a little angrier over here.
So what we've established so far is that religion offers a predictable, stable supply of frequent spiritual experiences, while atheism does not have that same guarantee. As atheism is an absence rather than a presence, perhaps the most productive way for these "New Atheists" to facilitate regular secular spiritual experiences is to try to build a giant database of interest areas + euphoric experiences that go with them, and then they can hook people up with a supply. Maybe you set up a regular Habitat for Humanity project, camping trips, whatever.
Thinking more about this, the answer seems it might be more difficult than I first thought.
If, as Mr. Whale Shark suggests, the peak experience can only come after hard work and dedication (learning a new skill, investing time into diverse areas of music, living by a strict code, gaining new levels), the answer isn't going to be easy. Making a database of possible peak experiences and how to achieve them is, on the a face of it, a nice idea, but easy hookups aren't going to be fulfilling.
Also, for me there needs to be some element of surprise. Or at least that a high isn't guarunteed. When I do a great show, and the audience give a standing ovation, I get a big rush. But a standing ovation isn't going to happen every time. Indeed, if it did, the rush would no longer happen.
Some things might work every time. For example, I could say to someone "Have a near-death experience in a car crash." But even that isn't something you can plan. Sure, in Fight Club they do it, but that's just not practical in real life.
I think it's a difference in demeanor. The punk crowd is heavily entwined with the DIY mindset, and in my experience, tends to focus more on individual enjoyment rather than enjoying as a group. I do occasionally see small groups of punks together, but they're usually few in number. Metal fans tend to flock together a bit more, and focus more on the actual crowd dynamic rather than the individual dynamic. I see a lot more lone punks in a pit than I do lone metal heads.
I'm also on the east coast, so that might factor in. We're a little angrier over here.
It may be a regional thing, or it may be that you don't have that much experience with it, or...I don't know. I know that at least in my experience, we always had big crews, and we overlapped with other crews, and it looked to me like most of the rest of the people in the scene had something similar.
This is basically the gist of my argument. You see a lot of people going through life constantly trying to get something for nothing, and I've never once encountered such a person who is truly satisfied. While I don't think every single thing should be a struggle, I do contend that those things for which we truly strive and for which we truly have passion will be our greatest sources of personal satisfaction.
Or at least that a high isn't guarunteed.
I don't think success is ever guaranteed. Does anyone really expect that? I mean, pour every fiber of your being into something and you'll feel satisfied, but that doesn't mean you'll always be satisfied every time you're putting forth effort.
It may be a regional thing, or it may be that you don't have that much experience with it, or...I don't know. I know that at least in my experience, we always had big crews, and we overlapped with other crews, and it looked to me like most of the rest of the people in the scene had something similar.
Could also be a generational thing. A lot of the punks I interact with these days are more in the hardcore scene, and they're almost all douchebags. I know some older punks, and they all say the same thing: it was different back in the day. Of course, everyone says that about everything, so I'm not sure how to interpret that.
I could say to someone "Have a near-death experience in a car crash."
Yeah, I don't advise doing that. ^_~
Obviously it's not that easy. I'm not proposing you draw a straight line from the person to the rush without some kind of work in between. Hook them up with the activity, not the rush. Some areas of interest tend to produce more high-intensity experiences than others. For instance, I have very few intense spiritual experiences while knitting, despite the frequency with which I knit. Perhaps skydiving has a higher incidence of spiritual experiences, and you are talking to someone who loves roller coasters and airplanes (intersection of interests). You wouldn't say, "Go skydiving and cut off your parachute on your first jump," but you might hook someone up with a skydiving school to give them the chance to have potential rushes (preferably without the near-death experience).
Yeah, it's far easier to nearly crash your car. I used to do it all the time. Though it never provided me any revelations, just, "HAHA, suck it death! You didn't get me, better luck next time loser!"
Back in 2005, one of the worst things happened. My wife and I lost our jobs on the same day. While it was crushing and devastating, I kept on sitting on a cushion and staring at a wall twice a day for 30 minutes. Some days it was damn hard to keep the monkey brain from wanting to come out. Just sitting there and trying to calm my thoughts while maintaining my breathing, but I kept at it. One night in 2007 while doing door checks at work, I was about to think back on losing my job that day....and it just fell away. I shook my head and kept doing the door checks. While it might not be a "spiritual" experience, it was something akin to what Buddhists call enlightenment. Of course, Soto Zen Buddhist believe you never find enlightenment, but then again, I don't have a Buddha statue either.
I think that we're actually heading in a meaningful direction.
For myself I get most of my spiritual experiences from doing martial arts and fighting in general. Systema specifically gets me to that spot the fastest. I enjoy feeling the chaos around me, while I'm calm and in control of the situation. It feels good to let all movement blend into mine and use that to take people down.
Otherwise I love to write and can really get into the things I write about. When I finish a particularly interesting part of a story and read over it I feel great about what I've finished.
I also forge knives by hand, and when one is finally completed I am usually the only one who's seen it unfinished, so I get a little rough on my work, but then when other people see what I made they're usually really surprised and that also gives me that experience.
I think the more important thing to deal with is how to walk down the path you choose rather than which path to choose.
For instance when I started making knives I had no idea what I was doing, but with a bit of mentorship and about $500 worth of books (I'm really serious about making awesome knives) I now know how to do all of the individual tasks needed to make a knife. Teaching someone how to just jump in and start following their dreams or however you want to put it is more important than actually learning the task itself. Learning how to be curious and how to learn really.
As for the NDE's, I've almost died like 6 or 7 times. Like the almost died where you get up and people freak out and say "Oh my god! He's ALIVE!" and then proceed to freak out your family. I do not recommend going for a NDE, it hasn't been that great of an experience and the days spent healing afterwards suck. All you need to do to get that 'revelation' is realize that you are here right now, be consciously aware of it, feel your senses on a conscious level and pay attention.
That's a good point. At the beginning of my martial arts classes, we said the same mantra every day. It snapped my brain right into the zone, no matter what my day had been like. It got to the point I would say it before working out, just to kinda center myself.
Sova, what are you using as a forge? (I'm just curious.)
I'm using this for a forge. Nothing like recycling old bbq's lol. I ripped out the guts and put in a pipe with holed drilled for airflow, and lined it with adobe that I made. I have some pics of the knife I just finished up there too.
That's neat! Open air, eh? I have friends that use ammo cans and coffee cans for more heat retention. It limits you to smaller work, but saves on fuel and builds up heat really well.
Hmm, that's not really how it works, it's a bbq lol. I can close the lid. I also have my great grandfather's oldschool forge of awesome, but there's a wooden gear in the blower that is rotten and needs to be replaced.
The dagger on my flickr is as long as my forearm, maybe 7 or 8 in of blade I'm guessing? Anyways I can make quite large knives due to the design, and because I'm too lazy to try to find someone to make a new wooden gear I use a $10 hairdryer to power it lmao. It works surprisingly well actually (I guess you saw the pics of it actually working). It's really ideal for making knives and when I work my way around to swords I'll have to make an even larger one, but I may just build a gas one eventually, haven't made up my mind yet though. Need to sell a bunch of knives to make back that $500, so maybe 3 or 4 knives.
Maybe I'll just make a topic about all the knife stuff I am prone to talking about. I have a small library on this stuff.
Well, I'll be in New York for most of September on holiday, so if you're less busy then I'm sure we could make a date.
Ah shit! The first Monday in September is Labor day, AKA PAX weekend, but Starting Tuesday the 7th, it's on like Donkey Kong.
Actually, you might be interested to know that http://nerdnyc.com Board game night is September 10th, and Recess (full day of gaming) is the 11th. Also, the open source hardware summit is September 23rd.
Comments
AC/DC and Van Halen are very accessible. Emperor and Gorgoroth are not. The difference is in the amount of willingness one must have in order to extract enjoyment. This is exactly the same contrast as people who go to church for the socializing and going through the motions, and people who are hardcore about their beliefs. Both lead to spiritual experiences, but of a very different sort.
I'm also on the east coast, so that might factor in. We're a little angrier over here.
If, as Mr. Whale Shark suggests, the peak experience can only come after hard work and dedication (learning a new skill, investing time into diverse areas of music, living by a strict code, gaining new levels), the answer isn't going to be easy. Making a database of possible peak experiences and how to achieve them is, on the a face of it, a nice idea, but easy hookups aren't going to be fulfilling.
Also, for me there needs to be some element of surprise. Or at least that a high isn't guarunteed. When I do a great show, and the audience give a standing ovation, I get a big rush. But a standing ovation isn't going to happen every time. Indeed, if it did, the rush would no longer happen.
Some things might work every time. For example, I could say to someone "Have a near-death experience in a car crash." But even that isn't something you can plan. Sure, in Fight Club they do it, but that's just not practical in real life.
Obviously it's not that easy. I'm not proposing you draw a straight line from the person to the rush without some kind of work in between. Hook them up with the activity, not the rush. Some areas of interest tend to produce more high-intensity experiences than others. For instance, I have very few intense spiritual experiences while knitting, despite the frequency with which I knit. Perhaps skydiving has a higher incidence of spiritual experiences, and you are talking to someone who loves roller coasters and airplanes (intersection of interests). You wouldn't say, "Go skydiving and cut off your parachute on your first jump," but you might hook someone up with a skydiving school to give them the chance to have potential rushes (preferably without the near-death experience).
For myself I get most of my spiritual experiences from doing martial arts and fighting in general. Systema specifically gets me to that spot the fastest. I enjoy feeling the chaos around me, while I'm calm and in control of the situation. It feels good to let all movement blend into mine and use that to take people down.
Otherwise I love to write and can really get into the things I write about. When I finish a particularly interesting part of a story and read over it I feel great about what I've finished.
I also forge knives by hand, and when one is finally completed I am usually the only one who's seen it unfinished, so I get a little rough on my work, but then when other people see what I made they're usually really surprised and that also gives me that experience.
I think the more important thing to deal with is how to walk down the path you choose rather than which path to choose.
For instance when I started making knives I had no idea what I was doing, but with a bit of mentorship and about $500 worth of books (I'm really serious about making awesome knives) I now know how to do all of the individual tasks needed to make a knife. Teaching someone how to just jump in and start following their dreams or however you want to put it is more important than actually learning the task itself. Learning how to be curious and how to learn really.
As for the NDE's, I've almost died like 6 or 7 times. Like the almost died where you get up and people freak out and say "Oh my god! He's ALIVE!" and then proceed to freak out your family. I do not recommend going for a NDE, it hasn't been that great of an experience and the days spent healing afterwards suck. All you need to do to get that 'revelation' is realize that you are here right now, be consciously aware of it, feel your senses on a conscious level and pay attention.
Sova, what are you using as a forge? (I'm just curious.)
The dagger on my flickr is as long as my forearm, maybe 7 or 8 in of blade I'm guessing? Anyways I can make quite large knives due to the design, and because I'm too lazy to try to find someone to make a new wooden gear I use a $10 hairdryer to power it lmao. It works surprisingly well actually (I guess you saw the pics of it actually working). It's really ideal for making knives and when I work my way around to swords I'll have to make an even larger one, but I may just build a gas one eventually, haven't made up my mind yet though. Need to sell a bunch of knives to make back that $500, so maybe 3 or 4 knives.
Maybe I'll just make a topic about all the knife stuff I am prone to talking about. I have a small library on this stuff.
I knew you were full of shit about this one.
Actually, you might be interested to know that http://nerdnyc.com Board game night is September 10th, and Recess (full day of gaming) is the 11th. Also, the open source hardware summit is September 23rd.