One short bad experience isn't worth getting so frothingly angry over.
Check the first post - I wasn't too pissed off, until pete starts saying - if he'll pardon me for bringing it down to a sentence - "That's the way the game is played, too bad." I only really hit frothing when I got told the same thing multiple times, despite filling out the situation more, and Gunt is getting applauded for his actions. You being condescending - well, sounded a hell of a lot like it to me, sorry if I got you wrong - that just topped it off. Straw, camel, back, you know the story.
However, I'm still not playing Burning Wheel again, with one simple exception. I'll play with, against, or under Luke Crane, which I know is possible, considering that he regularly runs demos all about the joint. Nobody's going to know the game better, and nobody knows how to bend and break the rules better than the guy who came up with them, and advised everyone else on how to do so. Of course, on top of that, if any fuckery occurs in that game, I can talk to him about it, right face to face with him, and see what the fuck is up. Hell of a lot easier to do in a more friendly fashion in person, because context, tone, body language yadda yah(You honestly don't know how often I have to re-write because I realise that my manner of speaking is sometimes inpenetrable, and insults and curses are little more than punctuation). To put it simply - I'll let him show me his product, because he knows what the fuck he's doing, and it's frankly THE best way to have an intro to Burning Wheel - Shit, think how many games he's played, GM'ed, demoed, talked about, theorised about - If he doesn't have pretty close to the formula for a damn good roleplaying game on his own system, nobody does, and it's not worth wasting my fucking time on. If he can, which is the likely option, then I'll bother with it, because I'll know it's actual potential.
Until then, Nada. I'm satisfied with D&D;, Gurps, Whatever. I mean, Hey, If you ever read a story in the greyhawk canon about a rouge jumping from a roof, armored in lead roof tiles from an opera house, killing a massive, gelatinous horror in one hit, scaring the shit out of the possessed townspeople so that they flee, and we don't have to kill them, before collapsing of his injuries - Yo, That was me, from a 4th Edition demo game that I was invited to and played with Wizards and House of the Falling star - One of the conditions of the game was that our session was recorded, and was able to be used in any WOTC D&D; supplement they chose, including novels.
The fact that my post has spawned such a passionate argument from both sides has only made me want to get my Burning Wheel on even more now, if only to figure out which side I will fall on.
I'd recommend it. I mean, I'm not you, in the end, and you're not me - and I recognise that like any system, there's plenty of potential for a good game in there somewhere. And anyway, Who knows, man, people love the shit outta twilight, and burning wheel is multiple hundred orders of magnitude better than that. And I still do somewhat trust Rym and Scott's opinions - in that it's not entirely deficient of a system. Call it a concurrent recommendation for a differing reason.
It wasn't going to go on for another session, because my character was left for dead. Yeah, it happens in Burning wheel. What's also meant to happen in burning wheel is that your character has a deeper motivation than "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL STABS U IN THE BACK" because since it's all over - There is literally NOTHING the elf gained from that course of action, above the other, if he didn't in fact lose over all.
Well, the Elf had his motivations. The players don't always state those motivations directly, but often take them to action. A little in-game roleplaying solidifies those things. There is a lot of drama that can happen, though, when you agree to one thing and act against it to the other player's surprise.
if he'll pardon me for bringing it down to a sentence - "That's the way the game is played, too bad."
That's something of an oversimplification. There's more to it than that, but at this point, you've put out way too much for me to actually respond to. It's clear that you didn't enjoy your experience with The Sword, and I think I can address some of your concerns. What it boils down to is that I don't think your introduction to the game was very good, and perhaps the goal of the scenario was not well laid out.
Burning Wheel requires a lot of player discussion in order to make sure that everyone is on the same page. The whole "fight for what you believe" line is really important. If you sit back at all, the game will walk all over.
It doesn't sound like you sat back. What happened is a very typical scenario: you made a pact with someone and they fucked you over. In play, that can be aggravating, especially when it's a human versus an elf. Elves are just better. They're not fair. In a 1 v 1 matchup, the lone human versus the lone elf is pretty much at the elf's mercy. I understand that this is a crummy set-up; that's why I suggested trying it again, with the Dwarf vs. the Elf. The scenario is pretty much designed to pit the Elf and Dwarf against each other immediately, and the Dwarf is a much more fair match for the Elf than any other character.
You did the right thing by playing the character how you should play any RPG. I think part of the issue here is that The Sword is maybe too basic for your level of general roleplaying experience. It's simultaneously an introduction to mechanics and the basics of roleplaying in general. What you needed was more of a mechanics focus. Good roleplayers excel in any system; Burning Wheel can turn anyone into a good roleplayer, and provide rewards for excellent roleplaying.
Here's how to make your scenario better: have one Belief be blank. You clearly have a grasp of character motivation and storytelling, so erase the last Belief on a character and write in your own. Don't write the Belief in a vacuum; discuss your intentions with the other players and tell them what you want to do in the game. Then, fight for your Beliefs.
I don't know if the Artha reward system was explained at all, but basically, you earn Artha by playing around your Beliefs. You earn a Fate point for pursuing a belief and a Persona point for "completing" a Belief. You can earn Artha by changing at a dramatically appropriate moment.
Here's a potential setup: Give Robard a Belief like "The Elves are dirty liars and can only be trusted at knifepoint." I dunno, something along those lines. Be really mistrustful, but then, during play, you two can grow to trust each other. Strike a bargain - change that Belief to one about trusting the Elf with your life - and then, when the Elf double-crosses you, mad Artha. The whole situation I've described is intended to reward both players equally, because they've contributed to the story. That's how the game is meant to be played. You don't just dick someone over in secret: you dick each other openly because that's how you want the story to go.
You could also benefit from a more experienced GM. A good GM knows when to let things go and when to swoop in when someone is getting out of line. You setup was definitely a bit unfair, and you were definitely in a position to get abused by the Elf player. That happens in Burning Wheel, but it may not necessarily be appropriate for your introduction to the game.
I always recommend that people play a game with Luke Crane, because he's roughly the best salesman on Earth. Failing that, I can certainly run a good Sword, and Alex is the best GM under the goddamn sun. Any of us would be happy to work with you on this. Trust me when I say the game is good and your experience is not necessarily indicative of how a game goes. You do have to get used to having things not go your way, though; that's the core of the game.
In a real game, if the Elf dicked you over, he'd simply set himself up for later dicking. Almost nothing in BW goes the way you plan, and that's what makes it fun.
However, I'm still not playing Burning Wheel again, with one simple exception
So you have one bad experience, and you react this strongly? That's incredibly short-sighted.
Someone said ham sandwiches are good. So I tried a ham sandwich. I went to a local bodega, got a ham sandwich, and ate it. BUT THE HAM WAS DRY! FUCK HAM SANDWICHES!
Every roleplaying system serves a purpose. You may just not like the kinds of stories that Burning Wheel tends to tell (influenced by the mechanism design inherent in the system). You also may have internalized too much of the roleplaying, which is surprisingly common and tends to leads to uninteresting collaborative storytelling.
It's possible to have an amazing role playing experience with a shit system like Hackmaster. It's possible to have a horrible experience with a great system like Burning Wheel. To judge the quality of an RPG system based on one experience is extremely shortsighted.
Something like a book has a single author. It's the same every time. You can judge it based on one experience, because it is what it is. An RPG system has an author, but any individual use of that system has many authors, those being all the people at the table. Seeing as a great experience is possible with any system, even no system at all, it must follow that a bad role playing experience is due to some lack in the people at the table.
So you have one bad experience, and you react this strongly? That's incredibly short-sighted.
Nope, not quite - But So far, my every experience with BW has been sub-par, that was just one particular one, and every time, it's been worse than any other system. I'm trying not to fuck it up totally for myself, and really, Who better to set me right than the guy who made it up, when he's reasonably within reach?
Every roleplaying system serves a purpose. You may just not like the kinds of stories that Burning Wheel tends to tell (influenced by the mechanism design inherent in the system). You also may have internalized too much of the roleplaying, which is surprisingly common and tends to leads to uninteresting collaborative storytelling.
Nope - I used to have a problem with that, but I tend to flip between meta-discussion of the character in third person, to playing the character in first person, more so when I'm playing with newer players, or players I don't know well. Burning wheel, as often described to me, sounds right up my alley - I've just never actually seen it occur as it's been described. I will admit - I used to have the problem of internalising these things, rather than discussing - but I got over that a long, long time ago.
To borrow your analogy, It's like this - You go, people are saying "The Ham sandwiches at this place are fucking AMAZING, and the sauce, just seriously, greatest ham sandwiches ever oh my god." So, you go to this place, pay the money, buy the sandwich, and the ham is not just dry, but completely off. Sometimes, it's a little less off, but still spoiled. Other times, It's absolutely inedible, and stinking of rotten ham. Sometimes there's no sauce, sometimes, it's nothing but some nasty-ass mustard. You're wondering what the fuck is up, since everyone is saying it's amazing, but you know all the dudes have been making these sandwiches, they're just sandwich flippers. But, You can go down on the day where the Chef guy that all these other people are describing, who makes the bread, picks the ham, and makes the sauce. You gonna go down and get another terrible sandwich of crappy, spoiled ham and nasty-ass cheap mustard, or are you gonna wait till you can go get a sarnie from the Chef?
My primary concern is your frightening vitriol.
I'm chilled. I get mouthy, but acting in anger is not something I ever do, full stop. Also, I do tend to swear far more than you're probably used to, with far less intended impact - Hell, nearly had an argument with Gunter a few weeks back when we were discussing something else, because he forgot for a moment that I sometimes use "Fuck off!" to mean nothing more than a strongly worded "No, I don't think that's correct." - and therefore, to him, it was kinda out of the blue. I was pissed off and frustrated, I mouthed off some, and pretty harshly. I'll admit, it's hard to quite get where I'm coming from on this point unless you've spoken to me, there's a fair bit lost when you translate the almost exact way I talk into text, Not much more I can say without asking someone to weigh in on my behalf. But don't worry - the volume and/or harshness of any statement I make isn't something to worry about, because nothing is going to come of it, ever. It's simply not the way I am. I mean, I'm no shrinking violet, when push comes to shove, I'm more than capable, but I never initiate the shoving, so to speak, it's not in my nature. That's not what this is all about, however. To put it simply, I may speak angrily, but don't worry about it, it's nothing but words, and it's never going to be more than words.
It's possible to have an amazing role playing experience with a shit system like Hackmaster. It's possible to have a horrible experience with a great system like Burning Wheel. To judge the quality of an RPG system based on one experience is extremely shortsighted.
Again, More than one, none of them that good, at best, they went badly in an amusing fashion. At worst, I simply walked away, because the game was just too much of shitpile to even waste time on. This experience was simply the one at hand.
I will be consuming a ham sandwich for dinner to determine what side of this argument I fall on
Ham is delicious, however, not all ham is of equal quality. Some ham is decidedly undelicious, you must try it for yourself.
Roleplaying with simple people is... well, simple. It tends to be boring, shallow, and a bit stupid. Play with people who like complex character development and plotlines, and your game will probably be awesome.
To be honest, it doesn't matter that much what system you use if you are a "take what you can use and make up the rest" kind of person. I hate it when rules get in the way of the game... I like it when rules make good suggestions. BW isn't pretentious; some of the people that advocate it are. That doesn't make it a bad RP system. You just have to realize that a good system does not equal a good RP experience every time you use the system. If you play with assholes, they will still be assholes in game.
Also, if you cannot maintain a friendship after being fucked in a fictional game, it is probably best not to play them with friends. Feel free to play them with strangers, though.
Keep my fucking mouth shut, and learn to embarrass myself via other means?
Roleplaying with simple people is... well, simple. It tends to be boring, shallow, and a bit stupid. Play with people who like complex character development and plotlines, and your game will probably be awesome.
I'll be fair - Gunter doesn't have the general experience backing him up, and to be fair, was probably more suited to the sword that I was, to follow along with what Pete said.
BW isn't pretentious; some of the people that advocate it are.
Mostly what I meant, but I didn't say it well.
Also, if you cannot maintain a friendship after being fucked in a fictional game, it is probably best not to play them with friends. Feel free to play them with strangers, though.
Now this, I'm taking issue with. Gunter, Grey, Nine and I are good mates - We've had a constant, pretty much daily conversation going for damn near two years now. We know his brother, They know my girlfriend, I know Nine lives in the same city as another friend of mine, and if they weren't both so damn paranoid, they'd probably hook in well together. We'll get in arguments, but it doesn't mean anything, really - they're not even spats, we all take our lumps in good turn and move on. Grey and Gunt even offered to both chip in to get me a ticket home, a while back, with little worry of timely repayment - an offer I didn't take, I don't take money from friends like that, but still, the offer was there. Hell, we were nattering merrily away until about an hour ago, when gunt went offline, to assumably feed the goats and attend to other such matters. Our whole conversation about his mess totalled two paragraphs, one each, which were long form version of "Yo, sorry about that man" and "Nah, no worries, we cool, no need for sorry on your part, sorry on mine."
I wasn't saying that you, personally, are incapable of maintaining friendships after being fucked. I meant it as a general prescription. We actually say that to pretty much everyone as a general disclaimer before such games as Illuminati, Dune, etc.
Plus, there's nothing wrong with venting your spleen about badness as long as you identify what was actually wrong. Bitching about a game when it's actually a particular player's abilities that were the problem is what will get you in trouble... not the bitching itself, but the fact that it's wrongfully directed. Not to mention that identifying the actual source of the problem can often lead to fixing said problem.
I wasn't saying that you, personally, are incapable of maintaining friendships after being fucked. I meant it as a general prescription. We actually say that to pretty much everyone as a general disclaimer before such games as Illuminati, Dune, etc.
Ah, sorry about that, I thought you were addressing me specifically.
Plus, there's nothing wrong with venting your spleen about badness as long as you identify what was actually wrong. Bitching about a game when it's actually a particular player's abilities that were the problem is what will get you in trouble... not the bitching itself, but the fact that it's wrongfully directed. Not to mention that identifying the actual source of the problem can often lead to fixing said problem.
I agree, however, I should be more careful to not go overboard in future, and be mindful of when my manner doesn't translate into text. Oh, and remember that Americans and English people don't tend to swear quite so casually.
Comments
However, I'm still not playing Burning Wheel again, with one simple exception. I'll play with, against, or under Luke Crane, which I know is possible, considering that he regularly runs demos all about the joint. Nobody's going to know the game better, and nobody knows how to bend and break the rules better than the guy who came up with them, and advised everyone else on how to do so. Of course, on top of that, if any fuckery occurs in that game, I can talk to him about it, right face to face with him, and see what the fuck is up. Hell of a lot easier to do in a more friendly fashion in person, because context, tone, body language yadda yah(You honestly don't know how often I have to re-write because I realise that my manner of speaking is sometimes inpenetrable, and insults and curses are little more than punctuation). To put it simply - I'll let him show me his product, because he knows what the fuck he's doing, and it's frankly THE best way to have an intro to Burning Wheel - Shit, think how many games he's played, GM'ed, demoed, talked about, theorised about - If he doesn't have pretty close to the formula for a damn good roleplaying game on his own system, nobody does, and it's not worth wasting my fucking time on.
If he can, which is the likely option, then I'll bother with it, because I'll know it's actual potential.
Until then, Nada. I'm satisfied with D&D;, Gurps, Whatever. I mean, Hey, If you ever read a story in the greyhawk canon about a rouge jumping from a roof, armored in lead roof tiles from an opera house, killing a massive, gelatinous horror in one hit, scaring the shit out of the possessed townspeople so that they flee, and we don't have to kill them, before collapsing of his injuries - Yo, That was me, from a 4th Edition demo game that I was invited to and played with Wizards and House of the Falling star - One of the conditions of the game was that our session was recorded, and was able to be used in any WOTC D&D; supplement they chose, including novels. I'd recommend it. I mean, I'm not you, in the end, and you're not me - and I recognise that like any system, there's plenty of potential for a good game in there somewhere. And anyway, Who knows, man, people love the shit outta twilight, and burning wheel is multiple hundred orders of magnitude better than that. And I still do somewhat trust Rym and Scott's opinions - in that it's not entirely deficient of a system. Call it a concurrent recommendation for a differing reason.
Burning Wheel requires a lot of player discussion in order to make sure that everyone is on the same page. The whole "fight for what you believe" line is really important. If you sit back at all, the game will walk all over.
It doesn't sound like you sat back. What happened is a very typical scenario: you made a pact with someone and they fucked you over. In play, that can be aggravating, especially when it's a human versus an elf. Elves are just better. They're not fair. In a 1 v 1 matchup, the lone human versus the lone elf is pretty much at the elf's mercy. I understand that this is a crummy set-up; that's why I suggested trying it again, with the Dwarf vs. the Elf. The scenario is pretty much designed to pit the Elf and Dwarf against each other immediately, and the Dwarf is a much more fair match for the Elf than any other character.
You did the right thing by playing the character how you should play any RPG. I think part of the issue here is that The Sword is maybe too basic for your level of general roleplaying experience. It's simultaneously an introduction to mechanics and the basics of roleplaying in general. What you needed was more of a mechanics focus. Good roleplayers excel in any system; Burning Wheel can turn anyone into a good roleplayer, and provide rewards for excellent roleplaying.
Here's how to make your scenario better: have one Belief be blank. You clearly have a grasp of character motivation and storytelling, so erase the last Belief on a character and write in your own. Don't write the Belief in a vacuum; discuss your intentions with the other players and tell them what you want to do in the game. Then, fight for your Beliefs.
I don't know if the Artha reward system was explained at all, but basically, you earn Artha by playing around your Beliefs. You earn a Fate point for pursuing a belief and a Persona point for "completing" a Belief. You can earn Artha by changing at a dramatically appropriate moment.
Here's a potential setup: Give Robard a Belief like "The Elves are dirty liars and can only be trusted at knifepoint." I dunno, something along those lines. Be really mistrustful, but then, during play, you two can grow to trust each other. Strike a bargain - change that Belief to one about trusting the Elf with your life - and then, when the Elf double-crosses you, mad Artha. The whole situation I've described is intended to reward both players equally, because they've contributed to the story. That's how the game is meant to be played. You don't just dick someone over in secret: you dick each other openly because that's how you want the story to go.
You could also benefit from a more experienced GM. A good GM knows when to let things go and when to swoop in when someone is getting out of line. You setup was definitely a bit unfair, and you were definitely in a position to get abused by the Elf player. That happens in Burning Wheel, but it may not necessarily be appropriate for your introduction to the game.
I always recommend that people play a game with Luke Crane, because he's roughly the best salesman on Earth. Failing that, I can certainly run a good Sword, and Alex is the best GM under the goddamn sun. Any of us would be happy to work with you on this. Trust me when I say the game is good and your experience is not necessarily indicative of how a game goes. You do have to get used to having things not go your way, though; that's the core of the game.
In a real game, if the Elf dicked you over, he'd simply set himself up for later dicking. Almost nothing in BW goes the way you plan, and that's what makes it fun.
Someone said ham sandwiches are good. So I tried a ham sandwich. I went to a local bodega, got a ham sandwich, and ate it. BUT THE HAM WAS DRY! FUCK HAM SANDWICHES!
Every roleplaying system serves a purpose. You may just not like the kinds of stories that Burning Wheel tends to tell (influenced by the mechanism design inherent in the system). You also may have internalized too much of the roleplaying, which is surprisingly common and tends to leads to uninteresting collaborative storytelling.
My primary concern is your frightening vitriol.
Something like a book has a single author. It's the same every time. You can judge it based on one experience, because it is what it is. An RPG system has an author, but any individual use of that system has many authors, those being all the people at the table. Seeing as a great experience is possible with any system, even no system at all, it must follow that a bad role playing experience is due to some lack in the people at the table.
To borrow your analogy, It's like this - You go, people are saying "The Ham sandwiches at this place are fucking AMAZING, and the sauce, just seriously, greatest ham sandwiches ever oh my god." So, you go to this place, pay the money, buy the sandwich, and the ham is not just dry, but completely off. Sometimes, it's a little less off, but still spoiled. Other times, It's absolutely inedible, and stinking of rotten ham. Sometimes there's no sauce, sometimes, it's nothing but some nasty-ass mustard. You're wondering what the fuck is up, since everyone is saying it's amazing, but you know all the dudes have been making these sandwiches, they're just sandwich flippers. But, You can go down on the day where the Chef guy that all these other people are describing, who makes the bread, picks the ham, and makes the sauce. You gonna go down and get another terrible sandwich of crappy, spoiled ham and nasty-ass cheap mustard, or are you gonna wait till you can go get a sarnie from the Chef? I'm chilled. I get mouthy, but acting in anger is not something I ever do, full stop. Also, I do tend to swear far more than you're probably used to, with far less intended impact - Hell, nearly had an argument with Gunter a few weeks back when we were discussing something else, because he forgot for a moment that I sometimes use "Fuck off!" to mean nothing more than a strongly worded "No, I don't think that's correct." - and therefore, to him, it was kinda out of the blue. I was pissed off and frustrated, I mouthed off some, and pretty harshly. I'll admit, it's hard to quite get where I'm coming from on this point unless you've spoken to me, there's a fair bit lost when you translate the almost exact way I talk into text, Not much more I can say without asking someone to weigh in on my behalf.
But don't worry - the volume and/or harshness of any statement I make isn't something to worry about, because nothing is going to come of it, ever. It's simply not the way I am. I mean, I'm no shrinking violet, when push comes to shove, I'm more than capable, but I never initiate the shoving, so to speak, it's not in my nature.
That's not what this is all about, however. To put it simply, I may speak angrily, but don't worry about it, it's nothing but words, and it's never going to be more than words. Again, More than one, none of them that good, at best, they went badly in an amusing fashion. At worst, I simply walked away, because the game was just too much of shitpile to even waste time on. This experience was simply the one at hand. Ham is delicious, however, not all ham is of equal quality. Some ham is decidedly undelicious, you must try it for yourself.
Roleplaying with simple people is... well, simple. It tends to be boring, shallow, and a bit stupid. Play with people who like complex character development and plotlines, and your game will probably be awesome.
To be honest, it doesn't matter that much what system you use if you are a "take what you can use and make up the rest" kind of person. I hate it when rules get in the way of the game... I like it when rules make good suggestions. BW isn't pretentious; some of the people that advocate it are. That doesn't make it a bad RP system. You just have to realize that a good system does not equal a good RP experience every time you use the system. If you play with assholes, they will still be assholes in game.
Also, if you cannot maintain a friendship after being fucked in a fictional game, it is probably best not to play them with friends. Feel free to play them with strangers, though.
Plus, there's nothing wrong with venting your spleen about badness as long as you identify what was actually wrong. Bitching about a game when it's actually a particular player's abilities that were the problem is what will get you in trouble... not the bitching itself, but the fact that it's wrongfully directed. Not to mention that identifying the actual source of the problem can often lead to fixing said problem.
EDIT: In written word you can argue that it's a lot less noisy, and thus the better form of swearing a fucking lot.