And given your dislike of mediocre superhero comics that sell well (perfectly understandable), I'm surprised that you'd be happy that Naruto and Megatokyo are among the top sellers. Whether or not you're a fan, MT's pacing and storytelling aren't really top-notch, and Naruto is simply cut from the same cloth that DBZ and every other generic shounen manga is. It sounds like you're manga fanboys so happy to hate on comics, you don't really care that it's simply Japanese crap beating out the American crap.
I was going to make this point earlier but decided not to. But Okita, you miss the point they are trying to make. Manga while it has lots and lots of crappy manga is more then one genre and more then one genre is dominate. In American comic's superhero's dominate. However there is also quite a bit of other comic genres out there they just are not nearly as numerous as the other genres of manga. I would be hard up to choice if Manga leans more towards Shoujo or Shounen (and all the billions of subgenre and other various genres) However it is easy to state that American Comics are dominated by super heros. I happen to like Superheros so I don't have a problem however it would be nice to see american comics tell other stories as well.
And given your dislike of mediocre superhero comics that sell well
What superhero comics sell well? The numbers indicate that superhero comics sell very poorly compared to anything else in their arena, and that their market is slowly shrinking.
... Funny, this was exactly my experience at Anime Expo.
Anime Expo is the exception: it's 180* from just about every other anime convention out there: it's more an industry trade show than a con.
And given your dislike of mediocre superhero comics that sell well (perfectly understandable), I'm surprised that you'd be happy that Naruto and Megatokyo are among the top sellers.
Who said we're happy? I dislike Naruto and Megatokyo both. The fact remains, however, that they're doing very, very well. Their makers understand the market and make decisions that allow them to grow and reach wider audiences. It seems like the superhero comic industry is more interested in milking existing fans for all they're worth instead of trying to actually bring in new readers.
It sounds like you're manga fanboys so happy to hate on comics, you don't really care that it's simply Japanese crap beating out the American crap.
Wow... You just don't get it. A lot of manga is crap too. We weren't saying that it's somehow wonderful that manga is outselling comics. The point is simply that manga as an industry is doing something right, finding success where the comic industry is failing. Superhero comics aren't doing well. They could be, but the industry seems to be stuck in its old ways.
The fact remains that a crappy issue of X-Men will sell better than a spectacular issue of some original creator-owned indie comic
And a crappy issue of some crappo manga will outsell both of them combined.
It's also disingenuous to paint the picture that American comics are all superheroes when the number of quality indie books is actually very high.
When did we say that? We read all sorts of comics, and there are a great many wonderful ones out there. All we've said is that superhero comics aren't selling well, and that I personally don't like them.
What really fascinates me is the obsessive defensiveness you comic fans are demonstrating. When we point out stupid things SONY does, sony fans don't yell and whine and write angry forum posts. When we point out the failings of Microsoft, no one gets indignant and accuses us of spin or ulterior motives. It's only the comic fans who get angry.
Why is that? Why do you get so angry at any criticism of the industry? Why are you always so defensive? Why do we get so many emails from you, all of which say pretty-much the exact same thing in different words? We've trashed all sorts of things on the show, yet only the comic fans feel the need to shout into the ether.
I don't bat an eye when people criticize anime or video games. I don't take it personally if someone makes light of the problems inherent in an industry that makes the things I enjoy. We didn't criticize you for liking the superheros. We criticize the industry. We call them "underwear perverts" because they had the gall to trademark the words superhero and super-hero. In our eyes, it's a slowly dying dinosaur of an industry.
So why do you care? Why the persecution complex? Do you really think we're out to -get- you, or to somehow undermine these comics that are "selling well?" Do you really think we secretly hate Superman, and want to ruin his creators? Or that we have something to gain in the failure of superhero comics? Why are so many of the letters comic fans send us so indignant and defensive?
All you're doing is proving our point as to the broad differences between many comic fans versus fans of other things.
To summarize, even though Rym did a good job, we aren't against the genre of superhero comics directly. Unlike Rym, there are indeed underwear pervert comics I enjoy greatly and view as wonderful works of art. I can probably count them on hands and feet, but that's besides the point. Our issue is that in the public mindset superheros, comic books, collectors and the comic book guy (from the Simpsons) have all been rolled into one. The US comic industry, consisting primarily of Marvel, DC and Diamond, perpetuates this mindset. We speak out not against a genre which many people enjoy. We speak out against the dominance of a single genre combined with an industry that would ruin an art form.
As for CGS, I listen to their podcast as well. If you are a fan of comics, I would suggest you also tune in. The hosts of CGS are well above nerd tolerance levels, and they know what they are talking about. I don't listen to all of their episodes, but they typically produce at least one worthwhile show a week. On the inevitable occasion when they do produce a very good episode, it is not something you want to miss.
Regardless, you have succeeded in demonstrating one thing I find troublesome in the CGS podcast and forum. They, and their listeners, seem to take a harsh stance against any serious negative comments about the industry, the art form, the podcast or any creators (other than Rob Liefeld). Whenever I dare try to have an intelligent discussion on their forum, I am met only with ad-hominem attacks such as yours. Because we dare to express our opinions, we are somehow egotistical? Frankly, I think it is the comic culture we frown upon that creates a community of people that can not help but take negative comments personally. Somehow we are the bad guys for providing intelligent, evidence-supported, negative criticism of corporations, works of art, industries and cultures, and you are the good guy for throwing out unsupported personal insults. I think that the self-congratulatory, apologetic and mutually affirming attitude of the comic community are key roadblocks towards instituting a change in mindset. The fact that the enforcement of this attitude over at CGS is viewed favorably troubles me a great deal.
Here at GeekNights we don't focus on the positive, nor do we focus on the negative. We will always tell the truth to the best of our ability, and we will always give you our unbridled, open and honest opinion, good or bad. If we interview someone, we will not be afraid to tell them they suck, if they do. We will not hold our tongues if we have an opinion that may be unpopular with our listeners. And while I have no problem making fun of people and calling names, we will not do so in an intelligent discussion or argument because it will make us look the fool.
Scott, I'll not argue the points of the comic industry, since in the grand scheme of things I tend to lean closer to your way of thinking of the industry, but your last comment was outrageously full of shit. You have both stated in your reviews of cons that you tend to dwell on the negative, and that everything else was cool. You've made comments in at least one of your con reports that in spite of all you'd said, you did have have a lot of fun at the con.
You may not focus on the negativity in your personal evaluation of it, but it seems to be the easiest points to argue.
I am starting to agree with ya'll about the people who read comics. However, I am in Asia so I have to order my comics online and it takes two weeks to get them, so I never have to go the shop and deal with the fan boys. I used to go to the shops and deal with those types, but I believe that when I get back to the states, I will continue to order online so I don't have to deal with those types.
I tried to make it clear in no uncertain terms I'm not some comics apologist with a persecution complex, but I guess that didn't really get across. I thought I mentioned in my post that there are numerous glaring problems with the comic industry, and its failure to adapt to its audience. In this, we are in agreement:
The point is simply that manga as an industry is doing something right, finding success where the comic industry is failing.
I cannot say that this is or was entirely untrue, since my entering anime fandom is partially a result of the quality of the whole mainstream comic industry going down the crapper in the 1990s.
What superhero comics sell well? The numbers indicate that superhero comics sell very poorly compared to anything else in their arena, and that their market is slowly shrinking.
Sales figures are here: http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1735 Diamond's virtual monopoly on comics distribution makes sales numbers very easy to track. These numbers are monthly, and comics sell past the month they're released in, but they also are the total number of issues the store ordered, rather than the number of issues actually sold to customers, so it probably evens out a bit. The marketshare of superhero comics may indeed be shrinking, but it may be on the rise with the string of successful superhero movies and special events. Saying that comics are "doing badly" is a very bold assertion. My point was you didn't really make an effort to even do the basic research required. You just linked to a list you found from the Book Standard and took that as carte blanche to get on a soapbox and talk in an uninformed way.
You missed this last time, so I'll set it apart: comics sell primarily as single issues. Graphic novels have been around for a long time, but the trade paperback volumes that anthologize single issues (the equivalent of a manga tankoubon volume) are only recently starting to gain popularity. To seriously say that list is an apples-to-apples comparison of the sales figures of American comics industry and translated manga to the point where you can make broad sweeping claims about the state of either is either dishonest or ignorant.
Why do you get so angry at any criticism of the industry? Why are you always so defensive?
I'm not angry at hearing the comics industry criticized! In fact, I believe I did it quite a bit myself in my earlier post! -_-;
My problem is that you seem to just skim a source and spout off some knee-jerk reaction to this Top Sellers list... Which I guess parallels the way you seem to have skimmed my post and then assumed the things I wrote were generic victimized persecution-complex fanboy lines.
Why the persecution complex? Do you really think we're out to -get- you, or to somehow undermine these comics that are "selling well?" Do you really think we secretly hate Superman, and want to ruin his creators? Or that we have something to gain in the failure of superhero comics? Why are so many of the letters comic fans send us so indignant and defensive?
I really should stop posting if all you can hear from me is *blah blah blah* ignorant fanboy *blah blah*
They, and their listeners, seem to take a harsh stance against any serious negative comments about the industry
I really can't speak for any of them, but I don't know that they're really more or less open-minded than, say, the animesuki forums. My point on that note was that it's really stupid to say anime fans are like X, but comic fans are like Y, and just make stereotypes, and try to argue that your experience extends for the whole of a given fandom. Why not just say that there are cool people in fandom X, as well as uncool people?
...unsupported personal insults...
we will not be afraid to tell them they suck, if they do
I had hoped that my points were somewhat supported. But if when I do it, it's an ad hominem attack, and when you do it, you're the Socratic gadfly, then I guess it's a matter of perspective.
Because we dare to express our opinions, we are somehow egotistical?
My assertion was that you have confused an opinion that comes from having the power to express yourself unrestricted with doing at least cursory research to the point where you can argue a point, having been informed.
Alright Okita. Your main point now is that you seem to think we don't know about how comics work. Well, sorry, but I know too much about the workings of Diamond, the direct market and single comic issues. Just look at the size of this post!
Yes, the Book Standard list only takes into account graphic novels with no regard for single issues of comic books. So at a cursory glance you would say it is unfair to compare the data from that list to individual comics because they are also not on the same list. Well yes, that particular list we linked to does not compare the sales of trades and individual issues. However, that does not change the fact that manga is beating the shit out of superhero books, even with individual comics taken into account, and it does not change the fact that superhero book sales are in the gutter.
Let's use evidence from your link.
The Top 300 comic books had retailer orders of 7.39 million copies in July.
First off, in the Golden Age of comics, Action Comics would sell millions of copies on its own. Also, Weekly Shonen Jump in Japan has a circulation of over 10 million in Japan right now. There are more copies of Japanese Weekly Shonen Jump than individual comics in a month combined. Looking at these numbers, comics are not selling well.
Let's look at some other data. Naruto is the 27th best selling book this month, period. It used to be 21st. Not best selling graphic novel, best selling book. Do you have any idea what kind of numbers that means? Try more than half a million copies. Naruto isn't even the best selling manga of the year.
Compare that to the best selling comic of the year, Civil War with 300,000 copies. Now divide Civil War's sales by 1.75 due to variant covers. Now subtract retail sales that stayed on the shelves. Now subtract that nerd who bought 100 copies to get them all signed at a convention. Now subtract that guy who bought one of each cover to bag and store and one more copy to read. You see, the 500,000+ Naruto copies translate directly to 500,000 Naruto readers. With 300,000 Civil War copies you are lucky if there are 150,000 people out there reading.
The number only goes lower and lower as you go to future issues of Civil War. The sales of comics also drop off dramatically as you go down the list of top 300 comics. With manga you're not seeing the drop, you're seeing the increase. This is Nartuo Vol. 11 we're talking about here. Volume 11 sold better than 10? Well, not really. What happened is Vol. 10 sold just as many copies as 11 over time. But 11 sold enough at once to make the list. Every volume of Naruto has probably sold just as many total copies as 11 since they came out. Compare that to comic books which sell a giant pile in one month and are forgotten the next month. Naruto #1 is still selling years after it was released.
It's not just Naruto, though. Fruits Basket, Death Note, One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist and others are selling equally well. Only two comics all year have come even close, and they were both special event miniseries with lots of variant covers. Also, a manga sale is about $10 for hundreds of pages. A comic sale is maybe $3 for 5 to 10 times fewer pages.
One more thing about the direct market. Do you remember why it was created? Every time throughout history when superhero comics sold poorly, the industry reverted to doing romance, horror, sci-fi and western comics that appealed to everybody. These comics sold well and raked in the cash. Despite it always resulting in a slow decline in circulation, they always reverted to the superhero comics as soon as they got the chance. Each time sales slowly declined until they had to go back to the mainstream comics again. This is why we had golden, silver and bronze ages of comics.
Eventually it was decided to not change the content of the comics, but to change the distribution. So when sales declined they created the direct market. If people couldn't return the books, then they could still make a profit despite decreasing readership. Comics would only be sold in specialty shops where they could be kept safe from the general public. If it weren't for the creation of this special non-returnable direct market, superhero comics would be a thing of the past.
Manga today makes over 80% of its sales in the returnable book market. If a bookstore doesn't sell its manga, they return it. Despite this, hundreds and hundreds of manga series are proving their worth. Look at some of the series people in the other thread on this forum are reading. Zombie Powder? I never even heard of it, but apparently it's popular. If you look at the list of superhero comics, less than 300 of them have even the slightest chance in hell of making it in the returnable book market. Yet hundreds and hundreds of manga series were released this year and last with the vast majority sticking around. More and more manga series are licensed all the time. If hero comics were only sold in bookstores, and there were no more individual comics, how many series do you think would be able to handle returns? I bet fewer than 50.
I've spent most of this post discussing sales figures and the comic market because your main point of contention seems to be that we don't know what we're talking about. I hope I've demonstrated sufficient knowledge in this department to convince you that I know my stuff. But again, you miss the point. The actual sales figures are important, but they are not our main point of contention. Our problem is that there is a scary culture of nerds being sucked dry by an industry which acts without rational business decisions. As a side effect of this, an art form I greatly enjoy is forced mostly to suffer as a vehicle for cornball stories of godlike men in tights. I welcome you to argue that american superhero comic culture is not bad. I also welcome you to argue that the industry is advancing the art form, and not just servicing the fanboys. I fail to find evidence to support either of those arguments, so I'd love to see what you come up with.
I've spent most of this post discussing sales figures and the comic market because your main point of contention seems to be that we don't know what we're talking about. I hope I've demonstrated sufficient knowledge in this department to convince you that I know my stuff.
Indeed, had the post above been representative of the podcast, I would not have had any complaint. It's not that I ever really disagreed with what you were saying; it's that I never thought that the list formed a statistical basis for drawing any conclusions except a nonstatistical ranking of graphic novel sales. The numbers you cite in relation to comic buying habits are a little fast-and-loose, but I'm not going to be pedantic-- the point you're getting at is still valid.
Only two comics all year have come even close, and they were both special event miniseries with lots of variant covers. Also, a manga sale is about $10 for hundreds of pages. A comic sale is maybe $3 for 5 to 10 times fewer pages.
being sucked dry by an industry which acts without rational business decisions.
In general, those huge events sell well not due to the fact that there are variant covers (a trend that is sadly seeing a resurgence for the first time since the comics bubble of the 90s), but rather because they're overhyped crossovers that are being portrayed as being "the must-read event of the summer!" These aren't typically great stories, and many comics fans compain, but at the end of the day, they end up being huge sellers for comics, and the big two understand this. I'd say the industry has become very skilled at milking their existing fans-- they just don't really understand how to appeal to new fans. I'm pretty sure we're in agreement on this.
I welcome you to argue that american superhero comic culture is not bad. I also welcome you to argue that the industry is advancing the art form, and not just servicing the fanboys.
I'm not taking the bait on that one; are you asking me to engage in debate on a vaguely defined concept while applying an arbitrarily defined metric like "bad?" If that's what you're trying to prove, I don't think you really understand what sorts of hypotheses evidence can and cannot support. At the end of the day, I guess I don't understand why you're getting hung up about proving statements about this fandom and that, and being right. Why isn't it more about "X sucks, don't buy it, but Y is great" instead. Isn't voting with money a far more effective means of fixing the system, rather than simply complaining about it? Say, "Nightwing has gone from poor writing to godawful writing (it has), yet Batman has been enjoying some great storylines recently, go read it." or "Naruto is standard shounen fare if that's what you want, but for more complex stories, check out Berserk."
What it all comes down to is that we can't go into super deep analysis in the podcast, especially if it isn't the main topic. We know, or at least we think we know, what we are talking about. That's sort of why we have these forums, to share information with our listeners above and beyond what we are able to do in the show. That includes listeners learning from us as well as us learning from listeners. Perhaps the episodes this week will serve to demonstrate our geek credentials.
If you don't want to take the bait on superhero culture being bad, that's fine. All we really have to say is that there do exist very awesome superhero fans and bad superhero fanboys. There also exist great anime fans and bad anime fanboys. But percentage-wise, the fanboys in American anime culture tend to be the minority. In an anime club of 200-300+ members there were never more fanboys than you could count on one hand. That ratio didn't seem to change much over the course of 5 years. Yet, anywhere I see a grouping of superhero fans, be it a convention, comic shop, forum or otherwise, I find myself struggling to find the people who are not fanboys. If you ask for hard data I can only provide anecdotal evidence. But I feel pretty confident that our low opinion of superhero culture is not unfounded.
The reason we get hung up on it is because it is so sad that an entire area of geekery is soiled by nerdiness. Someone once complained about us saying that we think anything geeky is awesome. They were absolutely right. We strive for as much geekiness as possible in all areas. So when something that could be very geeky, like comic books, is taken over by nerdiness we fight against it with vigor.
Comments
What really fascinates me is the obsessive defensiveness you comic fans are demonstrating. When we point out stupid things SONY does, sony fans don't yell and whine and write angry forum posts. When we point out the failings of Microsoft, no one gets indignant and accuses us of spin or ulterior motives. It's only the comic fans who get angry.
Why is that? Why do you get so angry at any criticism of the industry? Why are you always so defensive? Why do we get so many emails from you, all of which say pretty-much the exact same thing in different words? We've trashed all sorts of things on the show, yet only the comic fans feel the need to shout into the ether.
I don't bat an eye when people criticize anime or video games. I don't take it personally if someone makes light of the problems inherent in an industry that makes the things I enjoy. We didn't criticize you for liking the superheros. We criticize the industry. We call them "underwear perverts" because they had the gall to trademark the words superhero and super-hero. In our eyes, it's a slowly dying dinosaur of an industry.
So why do you care? Why the persecution complex? Do you really think we're out to -get- you, or to somehow undermine these comics that are "selling well?" Do you really think we secretly hate Superman, and want to ruin his creators? Or that we have something to gain in the failure of superhero comics? Why are so many of the letters comic fans send us so indignant and defensive?
All you're doing is proving our point as to the broad differences between many comic fans versus fans of other things.
As for CGS, I listen to their podcast as well. If you are a fan of comics, I would suggest you also tune in. The hosts of CGS are well above nerd tolerance levels, and they know what they are talking about. I don't listen to all of their episodes, but they typically produce at least one worthwhile show a week. On the inevitable occasion when they do produce a very good episode, it is not something you want to miss.
Regardless, you have succeeded in demonstrating one thing I find troublesome in the CGS podcast and forum. They, and their listeners, seem to take a harsh stance against any serious negative comments about the industry, the art form, the podcast or any creators (other than Rob Liefeld). Whenever I dare try to have an intelligent discussion on their forum, I am met only with ad-hominem attacks such as yours. Because we dare to express our opinions, we are somehow egotistical? Frankly, I think it is the comic culture we frown upon that creates a community of people that can not help but take negative comments personally. Somehow we are the bad guys for providing intelligent, evidence-supported, negative criticism of corporations, works of art, industries and cultures, and you are the good guy for throwing out unsupported personal insults. I think that the self-congratulatory, apologetic and mutually affirming attitude of the comic community are key roadblocks towards instituting a change in mindset. The fact that the enforcement of this attitude over at CGS is viewed favorably troubles me a great deal.
Here at GeekNights we don't focus on the positive, nor do we focus on the negative. We will always tell the truth to the best of our ability, and we will always give you our unbridled, open and honest opinion, good or bad. If we interview someone, we will not be afraid to tell them they suck, if they do. We will not hold our tongues if we have an opinion that may be unpopular with our listeners. And while I have no problem making fun of people and calling names, we will not do so in an intelligent discussion or argument because it will make us look the fool.
You may not focus on the negativity in your personal evaluation of it, but it seems to be the easiest points to argue.
You missed this last time, so I'll set it apart: comics sell primarily as single issues. Graphic novels have been around for a long time, but the trade paperback volumes that anthologize single issues (the equivalent of a manga tankoubon volume) are only recently starting to gain popularity. To seriously say that list is an apples-to-apples comparison of the sales figures of American comics industry and translated manga to the point where you can make broad sweeping claims about the state of either is either dishonest or ignorant. I'm not angry at hearing the comics industry criticized! In fact, I believe I did it quite a bit myself in my earlier post! -_-;
My problem is that you seem to just skim a source and spout off some knee-jerk reaction to this Top Sellers list... Which I guess parallels the way you seem to have skimmed my post and then assumed the things I wrote were generic victimized persecution-complex fanboy lines. I really should stop posting if all you can hear from me is *blah blah blah* ignorant fanboy *blah blah* I really can't speak for any of them, but I don't know that they're really more or less open-minded than, say, the animesuki forums. My point on that note was that it's really stupid to say anime fans are like X, but comic fans are like Y, and just make stereotypes, and try to argue that your experience extends for the whole of a given fandom. Why not just say that there are cool people in fandom X, as well as uncool people? I had hoped that my points were somewhat supported. But if when I do it, it's an ad hominem attack, and when you do it, you're the Socratic gadfly, then I guess it's a matter of perspective. My assertion was that you have confused an opinion that comes from having the power to express yourself unrestricted with doing at least cursory research to the point where you can argue a point, having been informed.
Yes, the Book Standard list only takes into account graphic novels with no regard for single issues of comic books. So at a cursory glance you would say it is unfair to compare the data from that list to individual comics because they are also not on the same list. Well yes, that particular list we linked to does not compare the sales of trades and individual issues. However, that does not change the fact that manga is beating the shit out of superhero books, even with individual comics taken into account, and it does not change the fact that superhero book sales are in the gutter.
Let's use evidence from your link.First off, in the Golden Age of comics, Action Comics would sell millions of copies on its own. Also, Weekly Shonen Jump in Japan has a circulation of over 10 million in Japan right now. There are more copies of Japanese Weekly Shonen Jump than individual comics in a month combined. Looking at these numbers, comics are not selling well.
Let's look at some other data. Naruto is the 27th best selling book this month, period. It used to be 21st. Not best selling graphic novel, best selling book. Do you have any idea what kind of numbers that means? Try more than half a million copies. Naruto isn't even the best selling manga of the year.
Compare that to the best selling comic of the year, Civil War with 300,000 copies. Now divide Civil War's sales by 1.75 due to variant covers. Now subtract retail sales that stayed on the shelves. Now subtract that nerd who bought 100 copies to get them all signed at a convention. Now subtract that guy who bought one of each cover to bag and store and one more copy to read. You see, the 500,000+ Naruto copies translate directly to 500,000 Naruto readers. With 300,000 Civil War copies you are lucky if there are 150,000 people out there reading.
The number only goes lower and lower as you go to future issues of Civil War. The sales of comics also drop off dramatically as you go down the list of top 300 comics. With manga you're not seeing the drop, you're seeing the increase. This is Nartuo Vol. 11 we're talking about here. Volume 11 sold better than 10? Well, not really. What happened is Vol. 10 sold just as many copies as 11 over time. But 11 sold enough at once to make the list. Every volume of Naruto has probably sold just as many total copies as 11 since they came out. Compare that to comic books which sell a giant pile in one month and are forgotten the next month. Naruto #1 is still selling years after it was released.
It's not just Naruto, though. Fruits Basket, Death Note, One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist and others are selling equally well. Only two comics all year have come even close, and they were both special event miniseries with lots of variant covers. Also, a manga sale is about $10 for hundreds of pages. A comic sale is maybe $3 for 5 to 10 times fewer pages.
One more thing about the direct market. Do you remember why it was created? Every time throughout history when superhero comics sold poorly, the industry reverted to doing romance, horror, sci-fi and western comics that appealed to everybody. These comics sold well and raked in the cash. Despite it always resulting in a slow decline in circulation, they always reverted to the superhero comics as soon as they got the chance. Each time sales slowly declined until they had to go back to the mainstream comics again. This is why we had golden, silver and bronze ages of comics.
Eventually it was decided to not change the content of the comics, but to change the distribution. So when sales declined they created the direct market. If people couldn't return the books, then they could still make a profit despite decreasing readership. Comics would only be sold in specialty shops where they could be kept safe from the general public. If it weren't for the creation of this special non-returnable direct market, superhero comics would be a thing of the past.
Manga today makes over 80% of its sales in the returnable book market. If a bookstore doesn't sell its manga, they return it. Despite this, hundreds and hundreds of manga series are proving their worth. Look at some of the series people in the other thread on this forum are reading. Zombie Powder? I never even heard of it, but apparently it's popular. If you look at the list of superhero comics, less than 300 of them have even the slightest chance in hell of making it in the returnable book market. Yet hundreds and hundreds of manga series were released this year and last with the vast majority sticking around. More and more manga series are licensed all the time. If hero comics were only sold in bookstores, and there were no more individual comics, how many series do you think would be able to handle returns? I bet fewer than 50.
I've spent most of this post discussing sales figures and the comic market because your main point of contention seems to be that we don't know what we're talking about. I hope I've demonstrated sufficient knowledge in this department to convince you that I know my stuff. But again, you miss the point. The actual sales figures are important, but they are not our main point of contention. Our problem is that there is a scary culture of nerds being sucked dry by an industry which acts without rational business decisions. As a side effect of this, an art form I greatly enjoy is forced mostly to suffer as a vehicle for cornball stories of godlike men in tights. I welcome you to argue that american superhero comic culture is not bad. I also welcome you to argue that the industry is advancing the art form, and not just servicing the fanboys. I fail to find evidence to support either of those arguments, so I'd love to see what you come up with.
If you don't want to take the bait on superhero culture being bad, that's fine. All we really have to say is that there do exist very awesome superhero fans and bad superhero fanboys. There also exist great anime fans and bad anime fanboys. But percentage-wise, the fanboys in American anime culture tend to be the minority. In an anime club of 200-300+ members there were never more fanboys than you could count on one hand. That ratio didn't seem to change much over the course of 5 years. Yet, anywhere I see a grouping of superhero fans, be it a convention, comic shop, forum or otherwise, I find myself struggling to find the people who are not fanboys. If you ask for hard data I can only provide anecdotal evidence. But I feel pretty confident that our low opinion of superhero culture is not unfounded.
The reason we get hung up on it is because it is so sad that an entire area of geekery is soiled by nerdiness. Someone once complained about us saying that we think anything geeky is awesome. They were absolutely right. We strive for as much geekiness as possible in all areas. So when something that could be very geeky, like comic books, is taken over by nerdiness we fight against it with vigor.