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GeekNights 20101101 - Science Education

edited November 2010 in GeekNights

Tonight on GeekNights, we discuss with our resident scientist Peter Olsen many aspects of science education. In the news, Facebook's new stalker feature is nothing scary compared to real threats like Firesheep, and Google is suing the US Government for unfair bid practices favoring Microsoft.

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  • discuss with our resident scientist Peter Olsen
    Oh hell yes.
  • Haha, I'm gonna listen to this right now.
  • Yet again, Pete Olsen is contributing to my science education. Once more, I am reminded of the fact that we have never spoken in person.

    The Internet? Fucking Miracles.
  • The Internet
    HOW DOES IT WORK?
    Something to do with magnets, I think...
  • Rym's Thing -Tunnels of SalemScott's Thing -Best Slot Car Track Ever
    Hey, Mr. Period!

    If you are concerned about Thing of the Day links working in the future, how about linking direct to the content you want to share? The slot car track link took me to a blog that links to a NYT article, and only there could I see the video, and the Tunnels linked to Fark which then opened a new tab when I found almost nothing there.
  • Not enough Pete.
  • Not enough Pete.
    The whole thing did seem a bit short.
  • The whole thing did seem a bit short.
    The show was already an hour long. What do you want? ;^)
    If you are concerned about Thing of the Day links working in the future, how about linking direct to the content you want to share?
    Direct linking is the worst way to assure that it's still there. Fark and Slashdot links exist long after the underlying articles disappear. Half the youtube-hosted things of the day are even gone, either from users taking them down or copyright takedowns. It's a serious problem that Scott is working on resolving pretty hard right now. Until we have a solution, our links are what they are.

    A survey of old links to Fark (which I often use) showed me that it's pretty rare for the original articles to still be accessible. Link rot was a problem of the 90s that is re-emerging.
  • A survey of old links to Fark (which I often use) showed me that it's pretty rare for the original articles to still be accessible.
    The original article being what? A line of text that is less than what you say in the show, and then a dead link? Great! It would be more helpful to change the old thing of the day link to a line that says "No longer available online, maybe google can help" which could be updated automatically if a bot finds a 404 at the destination. If you link to nothing but an eternally existing but eternally unhelpful page (like Fark) this option isn't available.

    If link rot is a REAL problem, make a copy of every thing of the day, and link to this cache if the original disappears. Meanwhile, why make me jump through more hoops to get to the good stuff?
  • It would be more helpful to change the old thing of the day link to a line that says "No longer available online, maybe google can help" which could be updated automatically if a bot finds a 404 at the destination.
    We're working on something like that. At least Fark and Slashdot reference discussion about the old link, and often links to mirrors. Also, many times a site will 404 or not respond for a while, then re-appear. Some sites don't even 404 (or whatever appropriate error for the situation). News articles go behind paywalls or get edited.
    Meanwhile, why make me jump through more hoops to get to the good stuff?
    Because no one has ever complained before. ;^)
  • Meanwhile, why make me jump through more hoops to get to the good stuff?
    Because no one has ever complained before. ;^)
    I know I have, specifically about your links, and many times about this kind of linking in general.
  • I know I have, specifically about your links, and many times about this kind of linking in general.
    The real problem is that blogs and web sites are very poorly managed, and links disappear all the time. If you must know, we plan to use some combination of Google caches, auto-recovered alt links, and auto-discovery of problems. It's just not super high priority, since the vast majority of our listeners never see the site, never click on a link, and never visit the forum. Most listeners are iTunes only.
  • Most listeners are iTunes only.
    Which is why my own podcast website is a bit, um, dated.
  • This has been the most interesting podcast episode in a while, and I agree, more pete! We need a Metal episode and then and episode on beer, then we're set. ;D
  • There's ALWAYS more Pete to go around. :P
  • Touching on Rym and Scott's point:
    image
  • edited November 2010
    The whole thing did seem a bit short.
    The show was already an hour long. What do you want? ;^)
    The part with Pete started around 35 minutes in. =P
    Post edited by Rochelle on
  • So, I didn't talk about every specific thing I wanted to, but I got the gist out there.

    Here's my question, mostly to the younger listeners out there: if you've had any science classes, do you agree with my assessment of the way that science is taught? What is your experience?

    I find that most people only see the body of facts and fail to grasp the actual implementation of scientific principles on the whole. I think, in part, that a far more applied approach is needed in order to get people thinking about how they should actually use science.
  • if you've had any science classes, do you agree with my assessment of the way that science is taught? What is your experience?
    I have had many good science teachers. My biology teacher in high school was excellent at forcing us to think critically about what we were observing or being told, and wrote his exams based on reasoning using the knowledge we learned rather than the endless regurgitation of facts. My high school chem teacher was the same way. However, this was at a private high school that ranks among the best in the nation.

    Now, there were also many bad science teachers in my life. Two of my three middle school teachers requested that we merely absorb facts, and one actually lied about a fact when I challenged her since I knew she was wrong. My sophomore science teacher was the same way. It was unfortunate, but I had enough drive and intellect already to not allow these experiences to define my scientific learning.

    My current bio class is a rough blend. A lot of the testing is regurgitation of lecture facts, with lots of "tricky questions" to try and get you to make mistakes by simply not properly understanding the question posed, rather than actually analyzing whether or not you can properly reason your way through the function of biological systems. It irks me greatly; I did not come to college to do busywork and take exams that amount to tricky science trivia, and I would far rather be learning to reason complex problems out rather than simply running down a scantron going "Chromosome arms end in telomeres, the cis-face of the Golgi accepts vesicles from the ER..."

    I'm going to apply for a research position next semester and hopefully join a synthetic bio team in addition to taking some more difficult classes, so hopefully things will change. I find it alarming, though, that there are individuals who are majoring in MCB like me and still don't see the value in anything but the lecture slides and texts that have already been written. You can't (or, more aptly, you shouldn't) succeed in any field without knowing how to apply knowledge for analysis and critical thinking.

    On another note: I feel like doing something like Barfblog for synthetic bio and genetic engineering. So few people properly understand GMOs, so I feel like such a project could be very beneficial, not just for my resume, but for the unwashed masses in general.
  • if you've had any science classes, do you agree with my assessment of the way that science is taught? What is your experience?
    I had a really good physics teacher my junior year, who's obvious interest in the subject made me want to learn. The other teachers I had were for general college prep because I had no interested in the subjects. Instead of making me more interested like my physics teacher, they only confirmed my dislike. A stronger emphasis on the applications of science would definitely be better.

    Coming from an incredibly non-geeky house, I hadn't felt the need to actually learn about science in high school. Maybe it was the school I was at, but I don't think my teachers did a good job of making us interested in learning. I only had four teachers that made me want to do better than the bare minimum that others would gladly give me an A for.
  • The whole thing did seem a bit short.
    The show was already an hour long. What do you want? ;^)
    The part with Pete started around 35 minutes in. =P
    thats why! Who ever pays attention to those two yahoo's at the start of the program anyways ^__^
  • I will never forget my Biology 2 class in high school because it is the class that I was in when the announcement that 9/11 happened. The announcement came over the loudspeaker, the teacher kind of shrugged and went "Huh, that's something" and continued on. Most of my science teachers have relied on rote memorization. I also remember later on in the school year, that teacher decided to bring back a dissection for the class, not of a frog but of a small shark. I opted out of it and for all of the periods that the class spent chopping up the sharks all I was allowed to do was trace diagrams of shark biology over and over and over again. It was nothing but busy work. The teacher was an old curmudgeon, if you couldn't guess. I had some teachers I liked in college but I feel now that my Astronomy teacher really missed out by not showing us at least the first episode of Cosmos, because even watching a little bit of it fills me with awe.
  • Most of my science teachers have relied on rote memorization. I also remember later on in the school year, that teacher decided to bring back a dissection for the class, not of a frog but of a small shark. I opted out
    Why did you opt out? It sounds like you only had busywork because you opted out of the actual interesting classwork of dissection.

    In tenth grade AP Biology, we dissected your standard frogs, plus a shark, a cat fetus, and a manta ray. It wasn't my bag, but it was intensely interesting.
  • I didn't take AP bio because I knew the amount of dissection involved. Some people would rather not deal with it, interesting as it might be. I gamely split my frog, my earthworm, and my cows eyeball, but I did not enjoy it in the least. All I could feel was regret. I think I would have had too much trouble dealing with the cat.
  • Most of my science teachers have relied on rote memorization. I also remember later on in the school year, that teacher decided to bring back a dissection for the class, not of a frog but of a small shark. I opted out
    Why did you opt out? It sounds like you only had busywork because you opted out of the actual interesting classwork of dissection.

    In tenth grade AP Biology, we dissected your standard frogs, plus a shark, a cat fetus, and a manta ray. It wasn't my bag, but it was intensely interesting.
    I didn't want to because I have a weak stomach for such things.
  • I didn't want to because I have a weak stomach for such things.
    An unrelated problem in our education system is that, by and large, high school classes in "standard" subjects" are not integrated effectively, with almost no useful and demonstrated overlap, and do little to prepare students for the reality of a career related to said subject.

    Our AP Biology class was almost entirely maths (statistics and probability primarily), academic writing, and academic article reading for half of the year, and almost entirely experimental design, procedural lab practices, and dissection for the other half. I think a lot of people are surprised when they're required to, say, write for physics class or do math in English class, yet this is exactly what we need to do to make education more meaningful to students.

    As it stands, they're under-prepared and equipped with inaccurate ideas of what any sort of career would be like in any field.
  • edited November 2010
    do math in English class
    Explain this one to me. Any science class should involve writing, it's part of the scientific process. But math in English? Psh.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • But math in English? Psh.
    We did analysis of word frequency to uncover unnamed sources in literature. It was a single unit, but it was interesting.

    Also, in grammar class, we discussed the math behind the evolution of language, and how it's used in archaeology to date things.
  • Wouldn't forcing every college student to take at least a few classes in philosophy solve part of the issue?
  • Wouldn't forcing every college student to take at least a few classes in philosophy solve part of the issue?
    Isn't college a bit too late?
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