Your'e really scraping the bottom of the barrel if your'e going to hold that abortion up as representative of all story-driven games. A good story definitely has a place in gaming. An experience that is tense and fast paced like doom could be greatly intensified by also making it cinematic. No matter what one thinks of the modern warfare games, you have to admit that you felt something when you saw the damage that was done to the Washington monument, and I was personally filled with outrage when I saw the Russian flag waving from the department of commerce building during the battle for the National Mall.
I'm not saying that DOOM was a bad game because it didn't have a great story, I've beaten that game more times than I would like to admit, but there is also room in gaming for a great story to be told that simply could not have justice done to it by a motion picture. In a game, you aren't a passive observer. You can charge with the light brigade, you can storm the beaches of Normandy with the allies, you can personally save the galaxy from imperial tyranny with the Rebel Alliance. You shouldn't discount storytelling in video games. Done well, it can add a layer to the experience that enhances every other part of it.
A game can have a story. The problem is when a game is primarily consists of non-interactive story. I don't even really consider those kinds of things to be games. That doesn't mean they are bad. Some of them are actually good. I beat Alan Wake for a reason. I actually wanted to see what happened. The story was kinda good. But as a game it was shit. It was a lot more story than game, percentage wise, and the game part was painfully generic and flawed. It would have been better if they had just made it a miniseries instead of trying to stick a game in there.
Plenty of good games have good stories that are integrated together into one entity. The problem is that there are a lot of "games" out there which really are just movies that have really shitty games stuck to the side so they can charge $50 per copy instead of the $15 they could charge for a DVD. The fact that the story is good does not excuse the shitty game. If you buy something that claims to be a game, it should primarily be a game. The majority of it should consist of game playing, and that game playing should be high in quality.
You can charge with the light brigade, you can storm the beaches of Normandy with the allies, you can personally save the galaxy from imperial tyranny with the Rebel Alliance.
Ahh, but a lot of these games are so terrible fundamentally that there can be no immersion or value add. At best, they're little more than Cliff Hanger.
Good gameplay will always overcome bad story, but good story can never overcome bad gameplay.
Again, Alan Wake is not the greatest representative of story-driven games in my opinion, as survival horror games are traditionally a little plot-heavy for my tastes. In my opinion it's really nothing but a proof of concept model for episodic gaming on the console. Despite the groans likely to be induced with this example, Gears of War is a good example of what I'm trying to get across here. It has just enough story, that is just interesting enough to help you get invested in the world, and to help you care about what's happening on the screen. It has cutscenes sprinkled throughout, but not enough to distract you from the game proper. The story itself is nothing I would give awards to, but it's told competently enough and reinforces the gameplay.
Gears of War is a good example of what I'm trying to get across here. It has just enough story, that is just interesting enough to help you get invested in the world, and to help you care about what's happening on the screen. It has cutscenes sprinkled throughout, but not enough to distract you from the game proper. The story itself is nothing I would give awards to, but it's told competently enough and reinforces the gameplay.
This is true. Gears of War does not have that problem as badly as some other games have it. However, Gears of War is a third person game, even though the gameplay is very much like an FPS. Also, Gears of War is really just not a very good game. It's middling at best.
Mass Effect 2 is currently the best example of excellent gameplay with a wonderful story integrated into the package. The combat itself is much improved over the first game and they did some wonderful streamlining of the various RPG systems.
Also, this is the most badass trailer known to man.
Mass Effect 2 is currently the best example of excellent gameplay with a wonderful story integrated into the package. The combat itself is much improved over the first game and they did some wonderful streamlining of the various RPG systems.
A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment, battling various monsters and looting any treasure they may find. -Wikipedia.
A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment, battling various monsters and looting any treasure they may find. -Wikipedia.
If you feel you can define various weapons, ammo, armor, and plot tokens as treasure, then you could define quite a few FPS games as Dungeon Crawls.
Edit - For example, Battlefield Bad Company 2 is a Dungeon crawl, by that metric. It has treasure(collectable weapons), Artifacts to help you survive(ammo), you battle enemies and loot all possible places.
Not quite, in your typical FPS/TPS, different weapons actually count for something, something I think was handled best by the Halo games. In ME2 they simplified the weapons to basically be differentiated by distance to enemy. Combined with a "Sit behind cover and whale on the group of enemies ducking out from behind cover until they're all dead and move onto the next wave." gives it the very RPG dungeon feel to it.
Also, much of that game was shooting down corridors.
I did actually like what I played of the world and characters. If they could make a game what was just hang out with Garrus and Tali while punching various aliens in the face, I'd play that for hours.
A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment, battling various monsters and looting any treasure they may find. -Wikipedia.
If you feel you can define various weapons, ammo, armor, and plot tokens as treasure, then you could define quite a few FPS games as Dungeon Crawls.
By this definition, any game with a story is a dungeon crawl. In order to progress, a story needs a character, an obstacle, and tools to overcome said obstacle. In some cases, such a game doesn't even need a story.
Also, the given definition is problematic because it assumes the term "role-playing" has meaning. Any game can be considered "role-playing" because the goal is to play the role of the sprites you manipulate in the game.
Under your definition, here are some games that could be considered dungeon crawls:
ChronoTrigger BioShock Pac-Man Super Mario Bros. Actraiser Sonic the Hedgehog Any Zelda game ever Ecco the Dolphin Portal Grand Theft Auto Left 4 Dead God of War Crash Bandicoot Halo Metroid Knights of the Old Republic Minecraft Berserk Ducktales Contra Prototype Assassin's Creed
You missed a comment. I am using the FRC standard argument format of broard statement and then narrowing down when people bring up specific objections.
You missed a comment. I am using the FRC standard argument format of broard statement and then narrowing down when people bring up specific objections.
You missed a comment. I am using the FRC standard argument format of broard statement and then narrowing down when people bring up specific objections.
Ah, what a great honor it is to earn the ire of both Rym and Scott within my first ten posts! I contest your postulation that Gears of War is a middling game at best. It's combat is brutal, yet somehow tactical. One man on his own can't really carry the team unless the skill gap is ludicrous, due to the fact that individuals are very durable, and instant death does not come around that often. Melee combat plays a huge role, often I have seen an entire team break cover and charge the enemy position with shotguns and lancers, using their fists and bayonets as often as bullets, and these charges are often successful.
The game is slower-paced than most shooters to be sure, but I do not see this as a detriment. It is a different kind of fun, which requires you to think carefully about your next move rather than simply relying on twitch reflexes. Squad tactics often win the day over a team of players that, while they may be more skilled, they do not work together.
Read any old thread about PC FPS for existing arguments about why no console shooter, let alone a third person one, can be as good, game-wise, as any PC FPS. Mostly it is just serious defects due to the realities of using a gamepad as a controller as opposed to mouse and keyboard.
Mass Effect 2 is currently the best example of excellent gameplay with a wonderful story integrated into the package. The combat itself is much improved over the first game and they did some wonderful streamlining of the various RPG systems.
Mass Effect 2 is a great game and handles story extremely well, it's experience that just has to be interactive to work so well. But the shooter parts of the game are still separated from rest of the game. I really enjoyed sniping aliens and space pirates and whatnot, but still I admit that storywise shooting parts could have been 10 seconds of cutscene of shooting, it would have made the game more boring too thought.
I really wait for the Mass Effect 3 in the hopes that BioWare makes it even better. Also playing Mass Effect 1 after 2 is just painful.
I agree that the mouse and keyboard are better implements for competitive gaming than a controller can ever be. But does this really make PC gaming inherently better? The limitations of a controller force developers to decide what is important in their game, and require them to work around these roadblocks. STALKER is a brutally realistic depiction of a post-apocalyptic survival situation, and is an extremely complex game, requiring you to use bandages to stop the bleeding before you heal yourself, else you may bleed out. Occasionally, all of this complexity gets in the way of the game. It is sometimes better to have a game in which the complexity is hidden away from the player. It is still present, and is there to be exploited by veterans, but new players lacking this knowledge will not feel as if they are missing something. Sometimes it's just fun to shove a chainsaw up somebody's ass.
Does every game have to be so deep in complexity, though? What if I'm not in the mood for intricate stories, super-deep gameplay, or pinpoint precision? What if I simply want to have a fun, streamlined FPS experience? The CoD/Halo games fill that itch quite successfully. Plus, no PC shooter can pull off the social same-screen multiplayer experience quite as well and easily as a console shooter can. LAN parties can be great, but it just doesn't have the inherent convenience and ease of application that local console gaming has.
You guys are so quick to discount other shooter experiences, that I wonder if you guys have even played some of the games you disdain so much.
Comments
Your'e really scraping the bottom of the barrel if your'e going to hold that abortion up as representative of all story-driven games. A good story definitely has a place in gaming. An experience that is tense and fast paced like doom could be greatly intensified by also making it cinematic. No matter what one thinks of the modern warfare games, you have to admit that you felt something when you saw the damage that was done to the Washington monument, and I was personally filled with outrage when I saw the Russian flag waving from the department of commerce building during the battle for the National Mall.
I'm not saying that DOOM was a bad game because it didn't have a great story, I've beaten that game more times than I would like to admit, but there is also room in gaming for a great story to be told that simply could not have justice done to it by a motion picture. In a game, you aren't a passive observer. You can charge with the light brigade, you can storm the beaches of Normandy with the allies, you can personally save the galaxy from imperial tyranny with the Rebel Alliance. You shouldn't discount storytelling in video games. Done well, it can add a layer to the experience that enhances every other part of it.
Plenty of good games have good stories that are integrated together into one entity. The problem is that there are a lot of "games" out there which really are just movies that have really shitty games stuck to the side so they can charge $50 per copy instead of the $15 they could charge for a DVD. The fact that the story is good does not excuse the shitty game. If you buy something that claims to be a game, it should primarily be a game. The majority of it should consist of game playing, and that game playing should be high in quality.
Good gameplay will always overcome bad story, but good story can never overcome bad gameplay.
Also, this is the most badass trailer known to man.
Edit - For example, Battlefield Bad Company 2 is a Dungeon crawl, by that metric. It has treasure(collectable weapons), Artifacts to help you survive(ammo), you battle enemies and loot all possible places.
Also, much of that game was shooting down corridors.
I did actually like what I played of the world and characters. If they could make a game what was just hang out with Garrus and Tali while punching various aliens in the face, I'd play that for hours.
Also, the given definition is problematic because it assumes the term "role-playing" has meaning. Any game can be considered "role-playing" because the goal is to play the role of the sprites you manipulate in the game.
Under your definition, here are some games that could be considered dungeon crawls:
ChronoTrigger
BioShock
Pac-Man
Super Mario Bros.
Actraiser
Sonic the Hedgehog
Any Zelda game ever
Ecco the Dolphin
Portal
Grand Theft Auto
Left 4 Dead
God of War
Crash Bandicoot
Halo
Metroid
Knights of the Old Republic
Minecraft
Berserk
Ducktales
Contra
Prototype
Assassin's Creed
The game is slower-paced than most shooters to be sure, but I do not see this as a detriment. It is a different kind of fun, which requires you to think carefully about your next move rather than simply relying on twitch reflexes. Squad tactics often win the day over a team of players that, while they may be more skilled, they do not work together.
I really wait for the Mass Effect 3 in the hopes that BioWare makes it even better. Also playing Mass Effect 1 after 2 is just painful.
You guys are so quick to discount other shooter experiences, that I wonder if you guys have even played some of the games you disdain so much.