What do we do about Mexico?

Rym

Arizona Central Article
Mexico's government is telling migrants driving home for the holidays from the United States that they should form convoys for their own safety while traveling through Mexico...

The drug violence is escalating, and large sections of the nation are essentially lawless. What should the United States do? Legalize drugs so as to strangle the cartels' primary source of income? Assist Mexico militarily in restoring order? Offer universal amnesty? Foreign aid?

It's ludicrous to think that we can secure our border without addressing the underlying problems of our southern neighbor.

Omnutia

Legalize drugs so as to strangle the cartels' primary source of income?

Should do or can actually do?

Rochelle

I remember when the news about Mexico would always be on NPR's most emailed stories. I almost couldn't believe how bad things were down there. It's almost like as if it was those typical action flicks of people vs. the drug cartel, but shit is real.

If we can't even legalize pot in Cali, the idea of legalizing drugs on a national level is probably out of the question.

My best guess? Do what we've done in the past, send troops to help out or foreign aid.

In regards to universal amnesty, I'm pretty sure the Republicans will be very much against that as well.

Omnutia

If we can't even organize health care, the idea of legalizing drugs on a national level is probably out of the question.

GreatTeacherMacRoss

Problem solved.

Rym

If we can't even legalize pot in Cali, the idea of legalizing drugs on a national level is probably out of the question.

As has been pointed out by more than a few people, the votes against legalization skewed heavily toward the elderly.. If you consider the US average death rate, the votes will swing favorably within a decade. ^_~

Rochelle

If we can't even legalize pot in Cali, the idea of legalizing drugs on a national level is probably out of the question.

As has been pointed out by more than a few people, the votes against legalization skewed heavily toward the elderly.. If you consider the US average death rate, the votes will swing favorably within a decade. ^_~

In a decade there probably won't be a Mexico. :P

zehaeva

Annex Mexico and institute military law, start an aggressive works program and build the nation up to our, admittedly low, standards.

In all honestly an armed approach probably wont work here. It will turn into an insurgency, its the word all those young kids are using these days, that our military has proven repeatedly to being unable to deal with properly. We have been getting better but we still lack something.

Just like the mafia in the 20s the only way you will get rid of the drug cartels is to choke off the source of their income. But even that wont get rid of them completely.

The largest problem? They become institutionalize. Like the mafia here and in italy or the yakuza in japan once organized crime entrenches its self it becomes quite difficult to dislodge. They will move from drugs to construction and government.

TheWhaleShark

Glass parking lot.

EDIT: But for reals, the cartels are probably too difficult to take on directly. It's another limited engagement scenario.

The only way for this to work is to take away the drug cartels' markets.

Matt

If we can't evenorganize health care, the idea of legalizing drugs on a national level is probably out of the question.

Regardless of your stance on healthcare, your analogy makes no sense.

The right to do drugs is a question of personal freedoms. Organized health care is the creation of a right through government services. In one, you are forbidden from doing something (drugs) , in the other you are forced to do something (purchasing gov't healthcare through your tax dollars).

Omnutia

Regardless of your stance on healthcare, your analogy makes no sense.

I wouldn't make sense, on account of not being an analogy.

Matt

Regardless of your stance on healthcare, your analogy makes no sense.

I wouldn't make sense, on account of not being an analogy.

touché. we will meet again.

Andrew

In one, you are forbidden from doing something (drugs) , in the other you are forced to do something (purchasing gov't healthcare through your tax dollars).

Sorry, but no one was going to be forced into purchasing anything with the Public Option.

GreatTeacherMacRoss

In one, you are forbidden from doing something (drugs) , in the other you are forced to do something (purchasing gov't healthcare through your tax dollars).

Sorry, but no one was going to be forced into purchasing anything with the PublicOption.

And before someone attempts to use it as a point, you won't be paying extra taxes towards it unless you opt in to aforementioned option.

Matt

In one, you are forbidden from doing something (drugs) , in the other you are forced to do something (purchasing gov't healthcare through your tax dollars).

Sorry, but no one was going to be forced into purchasing anything with the PublicOption.

I was responding to the general sentiment of "let's organize health care", which conjurs up the utopian visions of everyone having full medical care taken care of by the gov't, not the specifics of the most recently proposed and bone-headed plan.

Jack Draigo

Roll a couple thousand troops into Mexico City and make the whole country the 51st state. Then legalize some drugs and tax the fuck out of the hard ones.

Wyatt

Pull troops out of the Middle East, redeploy them against the Mexican cartels, forcibly seize assets, and use them to build a more stable infrastructure. It's not perfect, but it's the best I got.

The money and lives wasted overseas would have have better been use fixing problems on our own continent. 9/11 was a tragedy, but how many lives are lost to drug violence every year?

Omnutia

Roll a couple thousand troops into Mexico City and make the whole country the 51st state. Then legalize some drugs and tax thefuckout of the hard ones.

Because Iraq worked out so well.

HungryJoe

Roll a couple thousand troops into Mexico City and make the whole country the 51st state. Then legalize some drugs and tax thefuckout of the hard ones.

Because Iraq worked out so well.

Actually, if you devote some thought to it, I believe you'll find that Mexico is not the same as Iraq. I'm not advocating the invasion of Mexico, even in jest, but if we did invade Mexico, I don't believe that we'd face the same problems we've faced in Iraq.

Omnutia

I was more talking about the US's general handling of invasions. Though at least this time there's proof of a reason to invade.

YoshoKatana

Hey, we did pretty well the last time we invaded Mexico! (though we didn't really have a reason then)

Jason

It's interesting that the conservative movement in America is simultaneously so jilted against both immigration and the very thing that could stabilize Mexico enough to stop it: Foreign aid.

My feeling is that there is no easy or short-term solution to Mexico's problems. Only a long-term education funding initiative can change the way Mexicans act, their habits, and their vices. But we want a border fence instead, right guys?

Rym

My feeling is that there is no easy or short-term solution to Mexico's problems

I do believe, however, that a general legalization of drugs would cripple the cartels and pave the way for rapid initial reform in Mexico.

The rest would take generations, but I have a lot of faith in such a simple beginning.

Jason

I do believe, however, that a general legalization of drugs would cripple the cartels and pave the way for rapid initial reform in Mexico.

Would that just legitimize the cartels and turn them into a bona fide lobbying power?

WindUpBird

I do believe, however, that a general legalization of drugs would cripple the cartels and pave the way for rapid initial reform in Mexico.

Would that just legitimize the cartels and turn them into a bona fide lobbying power?

If Mexico legalized too, they'd just become corporations. The problem is that the Mexican government actually believes in the drug war, and the cartels are composed of murderers.

Rym

Would that just legitimize the cartels and turn them into a bona fide lobbying power?

It would eliminate the black market that provides most of the price support for their operations. Drugs have low margins for illicit producers due to the fact that there is demand but no legitimate supply. I believe that legalizing them generally in the US would greatly reduce these margins as legitimate competition arose both domestically and in Mexico.

The cartels might start growing and exporting legally, and would likely attempt to compete unfairly in their own country, but the overhead of US domestic production would drop precipitously. At worst, I imagine they would transition from "banditos" to a more Mafia-like presence which, while still bad, is a big step up. "Legitimate" business is worse than legitimate business, but far better than outlaw business.

Jason

It would eliminate the black market that provides most of the price support for their operations.

How would it eliminate the black market for drugs? Wouldn't it just add a legal channel to the illegal one? For example, I know the electronics black market in Mexico is still very profitable and prevalent even though electronics are openly and legally sold in stores. Your logic doesn't really follow.

Rym

For example, I know the electronics black market in Mexico is still very profitable and prevalent even though electronics are openly and legally sold in stores.

So, stolen electronics? There's a similar black and grey market in the US. But what if electronics overall were illegal here?

Black markets cannot be eliminated, even in the US. The key is to make the white market the majority.

zehaeva

How would it eliminate the black market for drugs? Wouldn't it just add a legal channel to the illegal one? For example, I know the electronics black market in Mexico is still very profitable and prevalent even though electronics are openly and legally sold in stores. Your logic doesn't really follow.

The same way that legalizing alcohol in the 30's eliminated the black market for bathtub gin.

Jason

So, stolen electronics? There's a similar black and grey market in the US. But what if electronics overall were illegal here?

The same way that legalizing alcohol in the 30's eliminated the black market for bathtub gin.

These arguments don't really stack up because they assume a decent degree of federalized control. The Mexican government is crumbling and barely able to exert any influence right now. The mafia in the U.S. was only stamped out within the last 50 years, in a period of unprecedented centralized governing power. The Mexican drug mafia, for lack of a better term, is poised to make far less money in a taxable legal sales scheme than it can by continuing to work in the shadows and used fear and muscle to leverage big margins.

zehaeva

These arguments don't really stack up because they assume a decent degree of federalized control. The Mexican government is crumbling and barely able to exert any influence right now. The mafia in the U.S. was only stamped out within the last 50 years, in a period of unprecedented centralized governing power. The Mexican drug mafia, for lack of a better term, is poised to make far less money in a taxable legal sales scheme than it can by continuing to work in the shadows and used fear and muscle to leverage big margins.

If you legalize the drugs here the production can become local, that completely cuts out the mexican cartels. The Mexican government doesn't need to do anything.

This is an issue of supply and demand. We have no supply here and tons of demand. The demand has not, and will not, go away. Allow us to increase supply, to even have a supply at all, and the curve changes. The profits of the cartels goes through the floor.

To go back to the 1930's, no one is going to buy your bathtub gin, smuggled across the boarder, when Mr. Daniels is mass producing his delicious Old No. 7 and shipping to every store in the union.

At worst the cartels will use their current cash supply to go legit and compete with legit dealers here in the States. This still gets rid of the crime and anarchy that is currently present in this situation.