Actually, it implies that DNA possibly arose independently in an analogous form
Honestly, no. While this is a really cool discovery, and something near and dear to my personally since extremophile biology is high on the list of research I'm hoping to get into in the next year or two (I AM an evolutionary biologist, as it happens), it doesn't imply that in the least. Only bad science reporting headlines imply that. The chemical swap from phosphorus to arsenic isn't particularly unlikely in an arsenic-rich environment, and it's deeply implausible that something as complex as the central dogma of cell biology could arise in perfect analogue twice, side-by-side.*
This is cool, and it gives us a really interesting look at an alternate biochemistry, but it's not "alien" and it's not even remotely plausible that it's evidence of an independent abiogenesis.*
I don't mean to go all George Patches and pooh-pooh how awesome this is, but I admit I'm getting kind of annoyed by all the sensational reporting.
* - these statements are made with imperfect information and represent a high, but not certain, degree of confidence
Analogy: this is sort of akin to seeing somebody ride down the street on one of those bamboo bikes if you've only ever seen aluminum frames. You're all like, "Holy shit! You can make bikes out of plants!" but you're not really all like, "Holy shit! Trees grew into bicycles!"
And then William of Ockham goes by on a little scooter and he's all like, "Yeah."
Saying that is misleading. They aren't arsenic based like we're carbon based, they're still carbon based. They just have Arsenic in their DNA rather than Phosphorous, which sounds amazing until you look at your periodic table and see that As is right under P. It's interesting and ground breaking, but really only for people who study such things in depth. It's not alien, and it's a stretch to even call it a new form of life. Just interesting really.
What I feel is really cool about this is the story behind it. Someone looked at the periodic table and saw that arsenic was just below phosphorus, and thought “hey wait a second this might work, where would I be able to find life like this?"
And so they went looking in a place where those lots of arsenic, and found exactly what you're looking for! How awesome is that?
And so they went looking in a place where those lots of arsenic, and found exactly what you're looking for! How awesome is that?
Super fucking awesome! Same reason some labs are looking into psychrophilic microbes in or under arctic ice for clues about what life on (in) Europa might be like, if it exists. Extremely cold-tolerant aquatic life? Where could we find that?
What I feel is really cool about this is the story behind it. Someone looked at the periodic table and saw that arsenic was just below phosphorus, and thought “hey wait a second this might work, where would I be able to find life like this?"
And so they went looking in a place where those lots of arsenic, and found exactly what you're looking for! How awesome is that?
This kinda reminds me of when itunes got the Beatles. It's very cool, but it didn't change everything. :P
I shall bring absinthe if people would like to try it. (Hint: if you don't like any of gin, licorice, fennel, spearmint, or christmas sugar cookies, you will hate absinthe).
I shall bring absinthe if people would like to try it. (Hint: if you don't like any of gin, licorice, fennel, spearmint, or christmas sugar cookies, you willhateabsinthe).
I shall bring absinthe if people would like to try it. (Hint: if you don't like any of gin, licorice, fennel, spearmint, or christmas sugar cookies, you willhateabsinthe).
Yes please.
@Scott: It's now officially all Rym's fault if I "loose" my pants this weekend.
Honestly, no. While this is a really cool discovery, and something near and dear to my personally since extremophile biology is high on the list of research I'm hoping to get into in the next year or two (I AM an evolutionary biologist, as it happens), it doesn't imply that in the least. Only bad science reporting headlines imply that. The chemical swap from phosphorus to arsenic isn't particularly unlikely in an arsenic-rich environment, and it's deeply implausible that something as complex as the central dogma of cell biology could arise in perfect analogue twice, side-by-side.*
This is cool, and it gives us a really interesting look at an alternate biochemistry, but it's not "alien" and it's not even remotely plausible that it's evidence of an independent abiogenesis.*
Yeah. We've seen exchanges like this before, but arsenic is just surprising because usually it is a deadly poison. However, consider the fact that some archaea are able to shanghai metals and sulfuric acid into fueling their glycolytic pathways, and this really isn't that surprising. Tardigrades can survive for seven days in a vacuum near absolute zero. I find that notably more alien that a phosphorus-arsenic substitution pathway.
uhhhh What? You learn in High School "All life on Earth is made of six components: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus and sulfur" We now can take Phosphorus off the list. That's pretty huge. The implications are huge for a ton of related fields.
Sadly, no. This merely changes "phosphorus" to "a group 15 element," and similar hypotheses have existed for a very long time. Silicon-based life being chief among them.
Just a heads-up, phosphorous is the element that stabilizes the structure of DNA and RNA (the phosphodiester "backbone" of DNA), and adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is the primary coenzyme utilized in biological energy transfer. Almost all metabolic reactions that are undertaken by every (previously) known form of life centered around the conversion of ATP to ADP and back via the removal and addition of a phosphate group. It's probably the absolute most important mechanism in all of biosynthesis. Period. Phosphorous is probably the most central element that connects all life on this planet.
And this thing doesn't use it.
Fuck.
EDIT: Yes, arsenic is similar to phosphorous, but the bonds would be far less stable than phosphorous ones, and I suspect the reaction energy involved in adding and removing arsenic groups is far greater than phosphorous.
Just a heads-up, phosphorous is the element that stabilizes the structure of DNA and RNA (the phosphodiester "backbone" of DNA), and adenosine triphosphate (ATP) istheprimary coenzyme utilized in biological energy transfer. Almost all metabolic reactions that are undertaken by every (previously) known form of life centered around the conversion of ATP to ADP and back via the removal and addition of a phosphate group. It's probably the absolute most important mechanism in all of biosynthesis. Period. Phosphorous is probably the most central element that connects all life on this planet.
And this thing doesn't use it.
Fuck.
Boy do I hate you sensationalist scientists and your so called "facts".
Just a heads-up, phosphorous is the element that stabilizes the structure of DNA and RNA (the phosphodiester "backbone" of DNA), and adenosine triphosphate (ATP) istheprimary coenzyme utilized in biological energy transfer. Almost all metabolic reactions that are undertaken by every (previously) known form of life centered around the conversion of ATP to ADP and back via the removal and addition of a phosphate group. It's probably the absolute most important mechanism in all of biosynthesis. Period. Phosphorous is probably the most central element that connects all life on this planet.
It's big, but it's not alien. Also, arsenic has the same valence as phosphorus. If the virions and assorted enzymes that became this fucker showed up in the lake before the arsenic levels started climbing, it's not impossible to conclude that the extremophile just made do. This is basically all of life shouting at biologists, "Hey, you assholes can have some serious tunnel vision sometimes."
Theoretically, yes. And arsinodiester backbones. This has huge implications for my field of study; essentially, you could lock up arsenic by using organisms with this engineered pathway as significant bio-accumulators. They'll build up arsenic as they grow, and then you harvest the stuff and barrel it up. Kind of like bioaccumulatory fungi.
Life is so fucking awesome. It never surprises me, but it damn well amazes me.
I actually know what this means, and it makes me so proud of myself that I actually remembered a few things from Chemistry.
You're totally awesome.
Goddamn, this thread has me positively squirming, I am so hyped up for SCIENCE.
Also, I went over chem, and Pete's likely right about the increased energy. So yeah, ultra-high efficiency poison-eaters with crazy new metabolic paths. Fucking SCIENCE.
And once more, I am not denying how big this is. Just the idea that it's "alien."
Comments
This is cool, and it gives us a really interesting look at an alternate biochemistry, but it's not "alien" and it's not even remotely plausible that it's evidence of an independent abiogenesis.*
I don't mean to go all George Patches and pooh-pooh how awesome this is, but I admit I'm getting kind of annoyed by all the sensational reporting.
* - these statements are made with imperfect information and represent a high, but not certain, degree of confidence
And then William of Ockham goes by on a little scooter and he's all like, "Yeah."
And so they went looking in a place where those lots of arsenic, and found exactly what you're looking for! How awesome is that?
@Scott: It's now officially all Rym's fault if I "loose" my pants this weekend.
And this thing doesn't use it.
Fuck.
EDIT: Yes, arsenic is similar to phosphorous, but the bonds would be far less stable than phosphorous ones, and I suspect the reaction energy involved in adding and removing arsenic groups is far greater than phosphorous.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
TL;DR:
Life is so fucking awesome. It never surprises me, but it damn well amazes me.
Goddamn, this thread has me positively squirming, I am so hyped up for SCIENCE.
Also, I went over chem, and Pete's likely right about the increased energy. So yeah, ultra-high efficiency poison-eaters with crazy new metabolic paths. Fucking SCIENCE.
And once more, I am not denying how big this is. Just the idea that it's "alien."