GeekNights 20101230 - The Historicity of the Bible with Luke Burrage

MrPeriod

Tonight on GeekNights, we end the year with a discussion we shared with the incorrigible Luke Burrage on the historical legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the Christian Bible. Of particular interest is the Documentary Hypothesis and a solid book on the subject (The Bible with Sources Revealed).

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lackofcheese

Wow, Luke talks so fast, especially in this episode. It seems this was a topic of great interest to Luke, which is probably related to the fast talking.
Great episode; I was waiting for this one.

Matthewop

i have missed it out. where can i get it??






dvd



cdsgft mi have missed it out. where can i get it??






cdsgft m

Nine Boomer

I like how that url doesn't even work.

Omnutia

I like the idea that one day in the far future, space Christians may accidentally conflate Neon Genesis Evangelion with The Bible.

jlawson70

Slightly related, Thursday I was watching some tv on my PS3 when my cell phone rings. I don't recognize the number, but figure it might be the new hire on my shift. I answer it and it is a shill for a quasi-religious group, asking me about turning my life over to Jesus. Because I was a bit flustered at having my episode of "Have Gun-Will Travel" interrupted, I decided to humor her.
Shill- Do you embrace the word of God?
Me- Actually, I'm a Zen Buddhist ma'am.
Shill- That is so sad that you haven't found Jesus.
Me- Why, doing just fine without him.
Shill- You need the bible and the word for enlightenment!
Me- Zen Buddhists never find enlightenment, but we keep trying.
At this point, she starts stammering and going off-script. I heard a male voice in the background say: "Screw it, just drop the call!" before they disconnected.

Cremlian

At this point, she starts stammering and going off-script. I heard a male voice in the background say: "Screw it, just drop the call!" before they disconnected.

I can't wait to say "Sorry, I'm a Agnostic Atheist Humanist Unitarian" to someone on the phone and let them wonder what that is. Sounds a lot like when a Marine recruiter called me when I was about to leave for college and asked what I was majoring in. I said 'Biotechnology" and there was just silence on the other end for a bit (then again my dad still says I majored in Bio-genetics :-p). The recruiter eventually just decided to give up and hang up.

VichusSmith

I would like to point out the deft detective skills of Scott when the fake fairies story was told. I swear Scott thought that two little girls had given birth to children.

If you think the Bible is dry, Rym, try the Koran. Maybe it's the way it was translated, but when I read it, I felt like I was being scolded. No wonder I barely passed that comparative religion course!

BTW, any thoughts on that Zeitgeist film? I've only seen the beginning of it, but it was very interesting.

Luke Burrage

Why do you bring up the Zeitgeist film?

Churba

Why do you bring up the Zeitgeist film?

Because it includes a bit about the "Mythical Christ" theory, though they think the motivation was political and borrows some from dan brown. They also buy into the 9/11 Conspiracy stuff, think sinking of the RMS Lusitania, the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and the Gulf of Tonkin Incident are all conspiracies, driven by the federal reserve bank which is forcing the US to go to war so that the US becomes owned by "International bankers". They also think US income tax is illegal, the North American Union is real, all the standard New World order/one world government stuff, and people being implanted with RFID chips to track and control them.

In other words, it's pure, unadulterated crazy. This is the kinda crazy a casual lunatic would pick up, inject his regular amount, and immediately OD.

VichusSmith

I didn't get to all of the stuff Churba mentioned. From what I saw of it, it says that Jesus is just cobbled together from other myths and stories. I didn't know it went into all these topics.

Churba

I didn't get to all of the stuff Churba mentioned. From what I saw of it, it says that Jesus is just cobbled together from other myths and stories. I didn't know it went into all these topics.

That's pretty much everything but the first 15-20 minutes or so, which is the Jesus bit. IIRC, they end up using the Jesus bit to prop up some of the New World Order stuff.

VichusSmith

The rest of it sounds like something I am not really interested in.

Churba

The rest of it sounds like something I am not really interested in.

That depends. Are you Batshit insane?

VichusSmith

not today

Luke Burrage

I didn't get to all of the stuff Churba mentioned. From what I saw of it, it says that Jesus is just cobbled together from other myths and stories. I didn't know it went into all these topics.

"Just cobbled together" is a very crude way of putting it. Kinda true, but in the same way that the legend of King Arthur is "cobbled together". Many writers had many reasons for adding to the myths and stories of Jesus, and pretty much every part of the gospels can be found in other religious and secular texts and oral traditions of the time.

Giving any single motivation for the creation of Jesus as a historical figure is very tricky, as there were many different groups with very different philosophies, all adding to the stories for different reasons. The Jesus of Mark and Luke and Matthew and John are all different, but even within the single gospels there are different takes on the same guy.

Personally I think Jesus was first a mythical figure, at the same level of greek gods, created by the gnostics as part of a mystery religion. Note that gnostic means special knowledge, and mystery implies that those outside the religion wouldn't, by definition, have all the facts.

Then someone with cynic leanings used the same idea that has been repeated in modern times... you know the WWJD bracelets? "What would Jesus do?" is a really good question to ask yourself in a moral dilemma. A common idea would be to have an imaginary friend, who sat on your shoulder, and become a backup to your conscience. First you would use him to express common wisdom, and stories, and that is pretty much what the source document of Q is (Q meaning the common material in Luke and Matthew which isn't taken from Mark). The next step is to come up with stories that your imaginary friend would star in. He would do and say all these awesome things, and you would try to emulate them in your own life.

Of course, when someone writes these stories down, they take Jesus as portrayed in Paul's Epistles (a heavenly being) and brings them down to a more human level as we see in Mark (a bodily expression of God). Over time Jesus becomes both more God-like and more human. Mark has Jesus only becoming part of God at death. John has Jesus being the very word of God, existing before the very creation of the world. Luke and Matthew have a variable Christology, with Jesus becoming part of God at either conception, birth, baptism, at the transfiguration, death, resurrection or ascension, depending on the reading. John and Mark avoid this by not having any kind of birth or childhood narrative, and in the case of Mark, no resurrection.

The concept of "Jesus" changes from gospel to gospel, and even within the documents. Ascribing a single motive to his creation or development is very narrow minded.


tl;dr
Read the fucking post and learn something, idiot.

ElJoe0

I didn't get to all of the stuff Churba mentioned. From what I saw of it, it says that Jesus is just cobbled together from other myths and stories. I didn't know it went into all these topics.

That's pretty much everything but the first 15-20 minutes or so, which is the Jesus bit. IIRC, they end up using the Jesus bit to prop up some of the New World Order stuff.

The most embarrassing hour of my life was the time my science teacher showed the class that film. On the good side of things, he is no longer a science teacher.

VichusSmith

On a related note, I wish I had the audio for you, but I was listening to this radio show where a guy called up and came with the agenda that "science is faith" just as believing in the Christian God is faith, and It was maddening. On top of that, he claimed that he was not a creationist at all. All the while he was claiming that he could disprove certain things, like approximately how long life has been on Earth.

I don't know what my most hated discussions/arguments are: liberal vs conservative or faith vs science. Just go do your thing, people! Believe what you wanna, even if it's wrong!

Jason

you know the WWJD bracelets?

I propose WWJCD bracelets: What Would Jimminy Cricket Do?

Apreche

you know the WWJD bracelets?

I propose WWJCD bracelets: What Would Jimminy Cricket Do?

Johnny Cash.

Churba

The most embarrassing hour of my life was the time my science teacher showed the class that film. On the good side of things, he is no longer a science teacher.

When I was going through flight attendant training(to get my on-paper cert), I nearly got kicked out because one of the teachers considered "The Secret" to be essential viewing for the class, and when pressed, because "Oh, but say, if the pilots were sick, and couldn't fly the plane, then if you use the power of the secret, you will survive, as the universe provides." To which in reply I simply pulled a passport looking object out of my bag, held it up, and said "Pilot's licence, Ma'am." She further argued that the universe had provided me with my Licence, to which it was replied that it was an insulting thing to say, as it was hard work, study, and practice that provided it.
_{Thankfully, she didn't look too close, or else she would have noticed my licence was very well expired.}

It lead to that segment being absolutely optional, after I argued with the head of the training school that it was silly and unnessassary - because in any situation where action is vital, sitting about wishing is only going to get people killed.

lackofcheese

WWJCDD - What Would J.C. Denton Do?

Churba

WWJCDD - What Would J.C. Denton Do?

I think we can safely say that smile isn't on the list of options.