I think the point is simply that comic books shouldn't appeal to the average person and shouldn't try to reach a wider audience. They should be happy telling the continuing stories of characters with long histories. Why try and change the formula to one that shuns your primary audience, just to reach a few fringe people who want to get into comics? Most people who want to get into comics do, and I don't know of too many people who care about superheroes but are turned off by this. While yes, Scott might be interested in Spider-Man or Batman but angry at the convolutions of the genre, what it would take to get him to actively read those comics would screw over all the other paying customers of DC and Marvel. They have no reason to change their methods, and it's illogical to argue that they should make changes so a few people who could be interested in superheroes start reading their comics, at the cost of people who like comics the way they are for a reason.
I went back and made some edits on that last post, so don't miss those. Anyway -- maybe the right thing to do is to just let superhero comics be what they've been for the last 20 or 30 years, and let the readers enjoy that. But you must realize that this is condemning the genre to a slow death. Superhero comics sales drop lower and lower every year, as their traditional readership either quits reading, or dies. Almost no new readers come in to replace them, and unless something changes to accomodate new readers, the end is pretty inevitable. TL;DR Superhero comics can do whatever they want, and they will be gone in a generation.
I'll ignore the problem of bad comic shops with horrible staff and owners entirely.
Eh, There will always be shitty shops, just like there are shit resturants, shit bars, shit car dealers, so on. If you want me to fix a problem that is people sucking at their job, I'll need more time and 2x4s.
The fact that you HAVE to ask to figure out superhero comics is already too great a barrier to entry.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - are you assuming that people won't take up a hobby or an interest in something, because you have to Ask someone who knows about it? Are you seriously trying to make that argument, especially as someone who has put out media and performed lectures trying to help people get into things and point them in the right direction, a process which you felt needed explaining? I honestly can't take you saying that very seriously.
I don't know what you think of the common person, but you seem to be assuming that this person wants to read comics and is going to put some modicum of effort into it, and enjoy putting effort into it.
Scott, in your scenario, they walked into a comic shop, and they wanted to buy some comics. That's all I assumed, along with that we're speaking of your usual Joe normal - in other words I assumed an average, mostly sensible and rational person. If you walk into a shop, and you don't know anything about the product you wish to buy(but you still want to buy something like it), why wouldn't you ask the guy whose job it is to know these things and help you out? That's just fucking silly, Scott. If you want to make an example with an average person, you have to actually allow for that the person will act as your average person would behave, and apparently unlike you, I've actually seen average people in that situation on a number of occasions, both in comic shops, and in other stores. I used to spend time just hanging out in comic shops, seeing people do exactly that all the goddamn time, thus how I came to the response you got.
If you want the person to behave in a manner that only supports your argument, then don't try to call it average, because that is simply not how the average person behaves, no matter what clever argument you're trying to run.
If you want to get comic sales to those people, the barrier to entry has to be lowered to zero or less than zero. Remember, reading is already a huge barrier to entry since most people never read another single book after finishing school.
That's a contradictory statement - If you want to lower the barrier of entry to zero for those people, you're chasing a fool's game, because you're talking about people who simply don't enjoy reading anything, they're not going into it without encouragement, no matter how low the barrier is. The Trick when you're talking to those people is to market it correctly to them - trust me on this, I've gotten people who are quite similar to the people you describe into comics, and it's not about having zero barrier to entry, but rather about giving them encouragement and helping them over the barrier.
Going into a comic shop is already a second huge barrier to entry. If you've crossed those two, it's already a miracle. The fact that there are more barriers than that is a travesty.
Then why is the average person you claim I don't understand even in the shop, as per your example? I might be wishing for a bit much, but would you please stop talking horseshit. Everything has a barrier to entry. To read comics, you have to be able to read. You have to have the ability to get a hold of them, which usually means money to buy them at the very least. You have to understand the language it's printed in, or have someone to translate for you. These are not barriers to entry for YOU, but they are for a large number of people, in fact, the majority of the world(to borrow your expression).
Look at all the other entertainment media in the world that are actually popular and actually sell to the masses. None of them require the consumer to know anything or ask anyone anything at all. The New X-Men movie just came out and earned $156,080,046 so far. That's tens of millions of people who paid for a superhero story. Yet, the comic sells merely tens of thousands.
So, the majority of people you keep talking about don't like to read, and yet, you're saying that the fact a movie makes more than a printed book means there is something wrong with the books? You're grasping at straws as usual, Scott.
Also, don't forget, How many - and we'll pick a random superhero movie, here - Spider-man movies are there? Three, with the first one being the setup, and the other two being action. Of course, you watch number three without knowing anything about spiderman, you don't have a fucking clue what's going on. Shit, those barriers to entry, ey?
Reading is an active entertainment - you have to do a little more work, no matter what it is. Watching a movie is Passive - you sit back, it happens in front of you, little to no action required beyond going to it or switching it on. If you went out and made an American Ippo movie tomorrow, it'd make more money than the Manga EVER did. Because the problem isn't with the book, it's with the people - the majority of people will trend more towards passive entertainment than something you have to work for. I mean, look at Twilight Fans, for fuck's sake - there are Twilight fans who have a twilight boner ten feet long. They love that shit more than you love the ponies - but they haven't read the books. They've only seen the films. Twilight the book is utter shit, and it's written in such a manner than an eight year old could understand it - it is one of the most effortless reads you can have. People still prefer the movies, because the movies are passive, you can see, you can hear, without doing anything more than pointing your eyeballs and ears in the right direction for a while. You're asking for something that isn't going to happen, basically - not because of what you think about comics, but because of what you seem to think will happen when your ideas will be enacted, which are nothing more than a foolish dream.
Also, notice that nobody here disagrees with me but you.
Notice I don't give a fuck. Also, I counter with the statement "Nothing is stupider than a crowd of people." If you went to a Tea Party gathering, you'd be the only person who disagreed with the speakers, does that mean that you are wrong, because nobody there disagrees with them but you?
On a forum full of nerds most of us are saying that superhero comics are confusing and convoluted and not worth the effort of figuring them out.
No, Scott, they're not. In a thread full of people with an interest in comic books - I'm not even going to bother stretching it out to the whole forum - Three (Three and a half, to be generous, justin seems to be a bit on the fence) people say they agree with you, out of twenty-one. That's a tiny minority, not the "Most of us" you seem to think it is. Remember, Scott, if someone doesn't WANT to argue with you, doesn't mean they agree with you. In fact, I'd say that I could pretty trivially find more people on these forums who have expressed an opinion that's along the lines of "Arguing with Scott is a really bad idea, because his arguments are ludicrous and silly" than people who agree with you on this issue so far. Hell, I've even been provided on occasion with past ludicrous arguments you made which I previously had no knowledge of, which I've declined to throw back at you for laughs, because that would be poor form, in my opinion.
Also, Let's not forget that even if the majority of people was against you, it wouldn't matter - the majority of people disagreed with you regarding the assassination show, and I'll bet my bottom dollar you're still convinced you're right. So, Scott, If you want me to retreat from my position despite being slightly outnumbered, why won't you retreat from yours when grossly outnumbered?
Yet, you think that the mass populace is going to do it?
Huh, did I actually say that? Are you sure it's not...Nothing? Are you absolutely sure you're not making shit up again? Are you sure I didn't say "I don't think the mainstream is trying that hard to break into comics" and later expressed an opinion that could be summarized to "They're not trying to get into comics, no matter what you do with the universe"?
How come they haven't already?
I don't know, I'm not like you, and I'm not willing to pretend I can read minds. Maybe they didn't ask someone who knows? Maybe they didn't go and find out? Maybe they're forgetting something? Maybe they're making zero effort to get into a particular hobby? Maybe they have unreasonable expectations? Or just maybe they're blaming the books for their own lapses - For example, Ro thought it was the book's fault that it had a big exposition on what had happened between two story arcs, when in reality, she'd just done the equivalent of hopping from, say, The first Harry Potter book to about halfway through the very last one. No offense to her, but that's her Fault, not DC's Fault. What, do you expect them to just stop selling books in between the two storylines? Stop advancing any plot or characters? Hate to break it to you, Scott my lad, the world does not exist at your convenience.
I don't know. Maybe they didn't ask someone who knows? Maybe they didn't go and find out? Maybe they're forgetting something? Maybe they have unreasonable expectations, or they're blaming the books for Their own failing - For example, Ro thought it was the book's fault that it had a big exposition on what had happened between two story arcs, when in reality, she'd just done the equivalent of hopping from, say, The first Harry Potter book to about halfway through the very last one. No offense to her, but that's her Fault, not DC's Fault. What, do you expect them to just stop selling books in between the two storylines? Stop advancing any plot or characters? Hate to break it to you, Scott my lad, the world does not exist at your convenience.
Churba, I feel like what you're missing is that regardless of what is whose fault, most people who aren't already into comics just don't care enough to put up with all this stuff. You can't attract customers by just hoping that they'll put in a little more effort.
Churba, I feel like what you're missing is that regardless of what is whose fault, most people who aren't already into comics just don't care enough to put up with all this stuff.
Then fuck 'em, too bad. Just the same as Scott would say "Too bad, you won't do it then." if I didn't want to put in one iota of effort to learn the basics but still wanted to code as a hobby, Or Ro would just go "Well, propably not for you" if I didn't want to put in the effort to learn how to knit but still wanted to knit, and just as I'd assume you'd say "too bad, so sad" If I didn't want to put in the effort practicing how to draw, but still wanted to do caricatures as a hobby.
Frankly? Doing things takes effort. If you don't want to bring yourself to the bare minimum required - which is less than you are all making it out to be - that's your problem, not a problem with the books. You know as well as I do that the "Everybody gets a prize for showing up" idea doesn't happen in real life.
You can't attract customers by just hoping that they'll put in a little more effort.
I never said that you could. I simply said the barrier to entry isn't that high, even if you do have to put in minimal effort, like everything else in life. Guess what? Getting a DVD from netflix to watch, after deciding which movie you want to watch for whatever reason? Just as much effort - well, of the manner you're speaking - as going into a comic shop and buying a comic book, after you decide what book you want to buy for whatever reason. But more people prefer netflix, because it's a passive method of entertainment over an active one - once you have done that, there is zero effort required to consume it, unlike a written work, where you have to read and think a little more.
Underwear pervert comics are dying. The fans and creators of same comics are the cause. They demand certain traditions remain because that is what they themselves want, but those same traditions (floppies, crossovers, events, etc.) prevent comics from becoming as popular as they have been and could be. Donald Duck has three times the circulation in just the small country of Finland than Green Lantern has in total. There are reasons for that. The convoluted continuity and crossover nonsense of the Marvel and DC universes is one of those reasons. I obviously can't convince you of that, but it's true whether you like it or not.
Frankly? Doing things takes effort. If you don't want to bring yourself to the bare minimum required - which is less than you are all making it out to be - that's your problem, not a problem with the books. You know as well as I do that the "Everybody gets a prize for showing up" idea doesn't happen in real life.
I think this is indicative of where the disconnect is. You're lumping reading comic books into the same category as learning to knit, or to draw, or to code. To you, comics are a hobby, rather than an entertainment medium. There's almost no other entertainment medium that takes as much of an investment of effort to get into. That's totally fine, if all you ever want comics to be is a niche hobby. But what you have here is something that used to be a ubiquitous mass media, on an inevitable downward slide toward being as relevant, and as popular, as stamp-collecting. The problem with the comics is, at the popularity-level of stamp collecting, there's no longer enough money coming in to make the books.
I fuckin' knew it, Rubin. You're still nothing more than an intellectually dishonest, narcissistic little coward.
Guess what? The offer to teach you ANYTHING I can possibly teach you about comics - if you just tell me what you want to know - is still open, despite the fact that you'd apparently rather act a childish little cunt. Even the bit where I said I'll be nicer than usual.
But I'll never have to go to the effort, because you're nothing more than an anti-intellectual coward, Puffing out his chest and strutting around, telling everyone else their problems, when he doesn't have the guts to say "Hey, I don't know. Can you tell me?"
Oh, and by the way, you sedentary, cowardly, dishonest, anti-intellectual piss-ant - not only do I know I've won this one, Since I've known you for long enough to know you only run crying in the manner of a scared child like this when someone really has your arse in a sling - but post all the fat pictures you like. I smoke and drink heavily, drink plenty of sugary soda, eat how the fuck I like, and I'll still beat you in any fair physical competition, you lazy, clueless little shit.
I could really keep going, maybe delve into jokes about shagging your mother, but let's face it, even if I was your father you still wouldn't be half of me, just as it is now, no matter how much money you make, no matter what city you live in, and no matter how many pictures you post.
I think this is indicative of where the disconnect is. You're lumping reading comic books into the same category as learning to knit, or to draw, or to code.
Yep. Because if you can read, you can read a comic book. I have hands, therefore I could knit, or draw, or code. I might read a few random individual issues, and enjoy one, not enjoy another, whatever. Same as I could scribble on a page childishly, and call it a drawing, and I might even have a grand old time while I'm doing it(no offense intended to your profession, of course). Yeah, I'm not making any serious effort at it, but that's roughly the equivalent I'm trying to make for you here - I can doodle on a page, or I can really cram some effort in and after a lot of years, become a professional like yourself, or maybe I can sketch some here and there, and just enjoy what bits of it I do - The barrier to entry is still the same when it comes to getting into it, just as the barrier to entry is the same for reading a good novel, or at least, a novel you'll enjoy.
I mean, I read Sci-fi like many people read comic books - The one here and there, sometimes I might read a bit of a series, or if I'm really enjoying that particular thing, an entire series. I don't expect to be able to figure out everything, no matter if I walk in at book one, or book seven, but if I only read book two of five and I enjoy it, I don't worry about the fact I didn't read book one, even if I don't have the vital clues to some things. I don't go "Rugh, Too complicated for me to figure out what book is what and who is who and what books are good" because that's not reading sci-fi, that's putting reading sci-fi in the too hard basket. Comics can be easier, and they can be harder in much the same way - I mean, Look at the star wars EU for an example that will inevitably come back and bite me in the arse. You pick up a book one of the X-wing series, and you read it. You don't need to have seen star wars, you don't need to have read everything else in the EU, you might miss a few things, but you enjoy the book just as much. After all, that's almost exactly what worked pretty well for me when I was ten, and it's continued to work the whole time up till now. Sure, if I'd have picked up book four or six, I'd be a little more confused, but I can still figure it out.
To you, comics are a hobby, rather than an entertainment medium. There's almost no other entertainment medium that takes as much of an investment of effort to get into.
The first part is accurate, but for the latter part, I disagree. Let's take a Batman comic, and assume an american of our age, who can read competently, and has at least the general cultural understanding of batman(Ie, Bruce Wayne, rich guy, dresses up in a costume and hits criminals in the face at night, has a sidekick in circus tights called robin.) Your friend has said "Hey, you should read batman, it's cool" so you decide to. That's about all you need! If you don't like one book, Put it down, grab another, just like any other book. You don't understand what's happening and it seems like you're in the middle of a plot, check if you've got the start of an arc, a bunch of them will have X-of-X StorylineNAME! either on the cover or first few pages nowdays, and then go and grab the first one instead! You don't know something, Ask someone like the dude at the shop! If the guy at the shop is a dick to you, don't shop there!
I think you guys are the ones who are not quite understanding, here, it's not that different to any other reading-related hobby in regards to initial investment of effort, assuming you're a normal person who can read and count competently, and seems to have a handle on the idea that you start at the start of a story, go through the middle, and finish up at the end, since you're not through the looking glass last you checked.
That's totally fine, if all you ever want comics to be is a niche hobby.
I don't believe that's any more true than the statement "It's fine to not make books into movies, if you only ever want reading to be a niche hobby." Guess what? People in general don't like to read as much as they like hooking into a movie or TV show - I mean, after all the numbers that give a book a decent spot on the New York Times best Sellers list are numbers that would get a TV show cancelled as a failure.
But what you have here is something that used to be a ubiquitous mass media, on an inevitable downward slide toward being as relevant, and as popular, as stamp-collecting.
I disagree. Back in the day, the real Heyday of comics, Everybody read. Books, magazines, papers. Being well-read was something respected, and being poorly read or not reading put you as the bottom of the totem pole. Now? Most people don't regularly read, if they read for pleasure at all. They Prefer TV shows and Movies. You're talking about an age where even the last bastions of popular reading - print magazines and newspapers - are dying out. As I said before, getting the top spot on the New York Times bestseller list is numbers that would have a TV show cancelled. I recall Adam Carolla's book got on the list without even the amount of sales a top selling title will do these days.
I don't think the problem is the books, the problem is the people. I mean, How many people have read Prince of Nothing? Does that make the book bad? God no! Yet, the barrier to entry on any of those books is just as high as an average comic book.
The problem with the comics is, at the popularity-level of stamp collecting, there's no longer enough money coming in to make the books.
I wouldn't be surprised it that would be the case, but I doubt it will get that far. After all, How many stamp collecting movies are there? How many TV shows? How much merchandising tie-ins? How many runs of stamps have the same Cultural Cachet as superman or batman, for example? And We're probably going to see more of it, because you can bet Warner and Disney didn't purchase the big two just to get them to print a few comics - It's all about the back catalog of characters they have built up that they can now use cheaply to make movies and shows, and of course, comics.
Hm. I might take this discussion over to Major Spoilers, too. Be interesting to see what opinions are like over there - especially if I also pose Scott's ideas, since he won't have the balls to pose such questions there, or to anyone properly educated in the world of comics. Also, more likely to get informed and educated opinion specifically regarding comics, since regulars there include Comic book historians(Both industry and the actual books) and people like Dr Peter Coogan, Director of the Institute for Comic book studies, who is the closest thing I can think of off the top of my head to having a PHD in Comic Books and the comic book industry.
No offense Churba, but your point would be much more well taken if you weren't such a fucking asshole too.
You'd normally be right, but not in this case: The point wouldn't be taken better, because Scott has his conclusion, and therefore cannot be moved from it with a lever of any size. Scott wants to turn around to me and just go "Hurr durr yr that fat comic book guy" then he can fucking take an insult right back, the weak little cunt. If he's going to give, I'm going to give give it back and then some.
I might add - not to be insulting, but simply to be blunt and not dance around the issue - you don't have a great track record of not being a fucking arsehole in arguments either, so while you might speak from experience, it's still the pot calling the kettle black.
My friend, who's not a comic book reader, went with me to see X-Men: First Class. We both liked it, and afterwards, he asked me to go with him to a local comic book store so he could check out what the actual X-Men comics were like. I read comics, but I haven't read X-Men, or really anything Marvel, in quite some time, but I said sure, happy to help introduce one of my friends into the great world of comic books.
So, we go to the store, and against the wall, they have rack after rack of all the new comics. I could see my friend's eyes just gloss over as the (literal) wall of comics were just too much for him. We went over to the owner sitting behind the counter and asked him what the X-Men comics were. He showed us a subscription list, listing all the current X-Men comics:
Age of X Universe Age Of X: Alpha Astonishing X-Men / Astonishing X-Men: Xenogenesis Chaos War: X-Men Dark X-Men Heroic Age: X-Men Nation X New Mutants Ultimate Comics X Uncanny X-Force Uncanny X-Men Wolverine: Weapon X / Wolverine (new ongoing series) X-Factor X-Factor Forever X-Men / X-Men Giant Size #1 X-Men Forever X-Men: Legacy X-Men: Second Coming (I might have forgotten some)
My friend and I look at this list and he looks at me and asks: "Who are the New Mutants?" Well, I said to him, they used to be a bunch of younger mutants who were X-Men in training, kind of like the new movie. "Ok, he says, what about all these Ultimate comics I see... Ultimate Spiderman, etc.?" The Ultimate universe is kind of like a new rebooting of the old Marvel Universe, I say, where it's not part of the regular continuity and things are different. My friend is getting more and more lost. "What about X-Factor?" he ask. X-Factor, I say, was originally made up of the original X-Men members, who left to form their own team, but then they rejoined the X-Men, and there were actually two X-men teams, one led by Cyclops, and the other led by Storm, and a new bunch of mutants became X-Factor, but I have no idea who's on X-Factor now. "And Wolverine has his own comic?" he asks? Yup, I said.
"Forget this!" my friend said, "I just thought the movie was cool. I don't even know where to start in this mess. Are there any comics that are like the movie?" We ask the store owner and he tells us about X-Men First class the comic, but even then, that's different from the movie and points us to where all the trade paperbacks are for the X-Men, recommending the Dark Phoenix Saga, Grant Morrison's New X-Men (whatever that is) and a bunch of other stuff.
My friend just says "fuck this..." under his breath, goes over to the shelf of trades and gets Scott Pilgrim volume 1. He takes it over to the counter and asks the owner: "The movie was based off of this, right?" Yes, the owner says. "And how many Scott Pilgrim comics are there?" Just the 6 volumes. "Is it done?" Yes. "I'll take this then." My friend says, buying the Scott Pilgrim book and walking out of the store.
Now, my friend is a pretty big nerd/geek whatever you want to call it. He plays Pathfinder, he plays all kinds of videogames, he can probably quote you entire episodes of Firefly from memory, but he's never read comics before. All he wanted was something similar and easy like the movie we just saw.
I note you never asked "Hey, I like the look of x-men, do you have any advice where I should start?" despite that you took the step of asking the owner - which would have been a better idea to ask, if you're coming in fresh.
Also, I gotta say, X-men IS actually pretty complex. It's been going since about the early sixties, without a major reboot, reorganization, update - though I think they had a re-numbering without changing anything, I'm not sure - or much like that at all. The entire run of the comic is a single continuity, number 1 to Number whatever-we're-up-to, describing a 16 year span in the universe. You can read from The X-men #1 through to Uncanny X-men(It got a rename, but it's the same book) god-knows-what-now and you have everything you need in that single title - everything else is a spin-off and not entirely relevant, unless you have a burning desire to know in detail.
Waitaminute...
Let's make a list of superhero comics where a single series of trades will give you the entirety of that continuity.
Good plan.
I'd argue that Marvel Ultimates count because the Ultimate universe entirely self-contained to the Ultimates line and universe.
I only really care about Ultimates anymore. I'm really excited for the Ultimates reboot; I'm hoping they don't fuck up the continuity and lines. As long as it's one line per team/character, with occasional crossover events, they're well on the road to doing something right. Then, drop issues to $1 per and subsidize a Mirasol display reader.
Then, you will be well on the way to fixing comics.
I've always wanted to read the Marvel Civil War, but I would look up the volumes and see that there is the core Civil War story (a single trade paperback) and then Civil War volumes for EVERY SINGLE FREAKING COMIC IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, and then that also ties into Planet/World War Hulk (both of which I have read and loved for very different reasons) and they're asking for $20-40 (the core story volume has a MSRP of 39.99) each for each of the Civil War volumes.
Yeah, screw that. I'll just play Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 some more times and read the Wikipedia page.
I've always wanted to read the Marvel Civil War, but I would look up the volumes and see that there is the core Civil War story (a single trade paperback) and then Civil War volumes for EVERY SINGLE FREAKING COMIC IN THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, and then that also ties into Planet/World War Hulk (both of which I have read and loved for very different reasons) and they're asking for $20-40 (the core story volume has a MSRP of 39.99) each for each of the Civil War volumes.
Y'ever wonder why, out of the big two, I mostly read DC? Now you know.
Sandman
No, Scott. You've been told already that's not a self contained continuity book. This is not a point of debate, you're just wrong.
Say... There's a lot of crossover between this list and the list of the greatest comics of all time. COINCIDENCE?!
Did you write that list? Then I'd say that's most probable. Any chucklehead can follow a list.
So, Moving on, and adding to Rubin's starter list -
The Dark Knight Returns and the sequel The Dark Knight Strikes Again (Yep, it's batman, but it's entirely self contained.) Kick-Ass Invincible and Irredeemable Atomic Robo V for Vendetta All Star Superman(A single run, start to finish, isolated) All Star Batman and Robin (Ditto) Batman Year One and Year Two(Literally keeps entirely to itself) Ex Machina Tank Girl Rai Astro City Alan Moore's Swamp Thing WE3 WANTED Powers Empowered Invisibles League Of extraordinary gentlemen Hellboy Salvador Talent Boom!'s run of Darkwing Duck Black Dynamite The Life and Times of Savior 28
That's off the top of my head, I'm probably forgetting a TON of books.
Y'ever wonder why, out of the big two, I mostly read DC? Now you know.
The thing is that I genuinely like the Marvel Superheros more than the DC ones. Really the only DC superheros I like are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
Reboot of a reboot/renumbering in an Alternate Universe that is now its own line? I agree completely.
The Dark Knight Returns and the sequel The Dark Knight Strikes Again (Yep, it's batman, but it's entirely self contained.) Kick-Ass Invincible and Irredeemable Atomic Robo V for Vendetta All Star Superman(A single run, start to finish, isolated) All Star Batman and Robin (Ditto) Batman Year One and Year Two(Literally keeps entirely to itself) Ex Machina Tank Girl Rai Astro City Alan Moore's Swamp Thing WE3 WANTED Powers Empowered Invisibles League Of extraordinary gentlemen Hellboy Salvador Talent Boom!'s run of Darkwing Duck Black Dynamite The Life and Times of Savior 28
Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, Nemesis the Warlock. Pluto. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and Hokuto no Ken.
As usual, Churba presents the stronger case. One of the big differences between the books Scott likes to talk about, like The Walking Dead, is that they only have a few years of story behind them so there's simply not as much material to absorb for a new reader, and they usually have a limited number of creative people behind them, so the stories can be more highly controlled.
Comics like Scott is trying to talk about, like the Batman books, have all been around for decades and they's all had multiple creative types behind them. This necessarily means that there will be a little more history than something like The Walking Dead. If the history is a little daunting to the new reader, Wikipedia exists. Even if it didn't, the effort to break in isn't really that hard.
As long as we're talking convoluted continuities, look at Star Wars and Star Trek. We've already seen an attempt to reboot Star Trek.
It's just a function of multiple creators and history. If you have some franchise that multiple people work on for a great number of years, it will acquire some baggage. The only question is, is it worth it to become familiar with the baggage and exactly how much baggage do you need to be familiar with to enjoy a story? Personally, I find that I simply don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire history of The Flash to enjoy a Flash story.
My opinion of the Scott/Churba dispute in this thread is that Scott wants desperately to show that he's very much above something so pedestrian as superhero books, and that, like any other hipster, his tastes are much more refined than ours. Churba, on the other hand, seems to have a much deeper working knowledge of the industry and the reasons why these stories can have value. It's pretty much a style over substance issue, with Scott representing the style side of "Oh, I'm way too cool for superhero books."
Y'ever wonder why, out of the big two, I mostly read DC? Now you know.
The thing is that I genuinely like the Marvel Superheros more than the DC ones. Really the only DC superheros I like are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
I've never really liked the Lanterns all that much. I WANT to, because I think their idea has potential for some good stories, but most of the time they all seem like tremendous jerks to me, with the exception of Kilowog and Tomar-Re.
Churba & Hungryjoe: Two people so utterly steeped in comics lore that they can't even conceive that the other side of the fence exists. "Just man up and read wikipedia to figure out what's going on." Sorry. If that were going to work, comics sales wouldn't be steadily declining every year.
My opinion of the Scott/Churba dispute in this thread is that Scott wants desperately to show that he's very much above something so pedestrian as superhero books, and that, like any other hipster, his tastes are much more refined than ours. Churba, on the other hand, seems to have a much deeper working knowledge of the industry and the reasons why these stories can have value. It's pretty much a style over substance issue, with Scott representing the style side of "Oh, I'm way too cool for superhero books."
I think you're just holding your own personal bias against Scott from other arguments.
With the reasoning of your opinion HJ, you could say that Scott could get just as much substance from reading less vs. the substance of the vast majority of comics that Churba has read.
Personally, I'd rather get the most out of the least instead of having to read through tons of stuff and get small bits here and there. I think both have good points, but I side closer to Scott.
My opinion of the Scott/Churba dispute in this thread is that Scott wants desperately to show that he's very much above something so pedestrian as superhero books, and that, like any other hipster, his tastes are much more refined than ours. Churba, on the other hand, seems to have a much deeper working knowledge of the industry and the reasons why these stories can have value. It's pretty much a style over substance issue, with Scott representing the style side of "Oh, I'm way too cool for superhero books."
I think you're just holding your own personal bias against Scott from other arguments.
No, I don't think that's it at all. I'll admit that I have become cross with Scott in the past because of his hipster sensibilities, and this is just another example of his hipsterism, but I gave him a fair reading on this issue. In my opinion, he's just wrong. He's been wrong about other things in the past and he'll be wrong about other things in the future. His wrongness doesn't have anything to do with any personal bias I have against him. In fact, I don't have any personal bias against him. I've just pointed out where he's been wrong a few times. Who hasn't done that?
Personally, I'd rather get the most out of the least instead of having to read through tons of stuff and get small bits here and there. I think both have good points, but I side closer to Scott.
So, you want to get maximum value for least effort in your reading for pleasure? There's nothing wrong with that, but I just get more pleasure out of not worrying about whether I have to expend a little or a lot of effort in reading for pleasure.
An example is the Star Wars extended universe. I never read one of those books until about five years ago. The continuity that you read about in Wikipedia is a little daunting, but I just started reading a couple of the books. I haven't gone through them with the aid of some continuity list or anything, and I haven't worried about knowing the whole continuity from start to finish. I've found that you don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of that continuity to enjoy a good Star Wars story, so I just read the books I want. However, I've gotten a pretty good handle on the extended continuity. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. So far, I've felt rewarded enough by the good to keep coming back.
The thing is that I genuinely like the Marvel Superheros more than the DC ones. Really the only DC superheros I like are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
Haha, That's cool man. I love me some Daredevil, spiderman and Deadpool, too - I was trying to imply I'm light on cash, rather than the relative quality of either.
Churba & Hungryjoe: Two people so utterly steeped in comics lore that they can't even conceive that the other side of the fence exists. "Just man up and read wikipedia to figure out what's going on." Sorry. If that were going to work, comics sales wouldn't be steadily declining every year.
Do you think I'm steeped in comics lore? That actually makes me pretty happy.
Okay, if convoluted continuity and complicated backstory equals declining sales, are the sales of all those Star Wars and Star Trek novels down? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, but they seem to keep churning them out, so they must have value to someone.
I'd say that some of that continuity can be just as daunting to a newcomer as any comic book title. I know it was to me when I started reading the Star Wars books. However, I just picked a book, started reading, and didn't have any trouble.
The thing is that I genuinely like the Marvel Superheros more than the DC ones. Really the only DC superheros I like are Batman and the Green Lanterns.
Haha, That's cool man. I love me some Daredevil, spiderman and Deadpool, too - I was trying to imply I'm light on cash, rather than the relative quality of either.
I don't actually read comics that much unless there is the odd comic like Planet/World War Hulk (the reason that those are my go to example are probably because they are the ones I have read the most recently) that you don't need to know that much about the universe to get into. I would love to read some Deadpool comics, but I'll just get them in a trade, and I really want to read Blackest Night.
I think what turned me off from DC is Superman. I have a Red Lantern-esque hatred for Supes.
Comments
TL;DR Superhero comics can do whatever they want, and they will be gone in a generation.
If you want the person to behave in a manner that only supports your argument, then don't try to call it average, because that is simply not how the average person behaves, no matter what clever argument you're trying to run. That's a contradictory statement - If you want to lower the barrier of entry to zero for those people, you're chasing a fool's game, because you're talking about people who simply don't enjoy reading anything, they're not going into it without encouragement, no matter how low the barrier is. The Trick when you're talking to those people is to market it correctly to them - trust me on this, I've gotten people who are quite similar to the people you describe into comics, and it's not about having zero barrier to entry, but rather about giving them encouragement and helping them over the barrier. Then why is the average person you claim I don't understand even in the shop, as per your example?
I might be wishing for a bit much, but would you please stop talking horseshit. Everything has a barrier to entry. To read comics, you have to be able to read. You have to have the ability to get a hold of them, which usually means money to buy them at the very least. You have to understand the language it's printed in, or have someone to translate for you. These are not barriers to entry for YOU, but they are for a large number of people, in fact, the majority of the world(to borrow your expression). So, the majority of people you keep talking about don't like to read, and yet, you're saying that the fact a movie makes more than a printed book means there is something wrong with the books? You're grasping at straws as usual, Scott.
Also, don't forget, How many - and we'll pick a random superhero movie, here - Spider-man movies are there? Three, with the first one being the setup, and the other two being action. Of course, you watch number three without knowing anything about spiderman, you don't have a fucking clue what's going on. Shit, those barriers to entry, ey?
Reading is an active entertainment - you have to do a little more work, no matter what it is. Watching a movie is Passive - you sit back, it happens in front of you, little to no action required beyond going to it or switching it on. If you went out and made an American Ippo movie tomorrow, it'd make more money than the Manga EVER did. Because the problem isn't with the book, it's with the people - the majority of people will trend more towards passive entertainment than something you have to work for. I mean, look at Twilight Fans, for fuck's sake - there are Twilight fans who have a twilight boner ten feet long. They love that shit more than you love the ponies - but they haven't read the books. They've only seen the films. Twilight the book is utter shit, and it's written in such a manner than an eight year old could understand it - it is one of the most effortless reads you can have. People still prefer the movies, because the movies are passive, you can see, you can hear, without doing anything more than pointing your eyeballs and ears in the right direction for a while.
You're asking for something that isn't going to happen, basically - not because of what you think about comics, but because of what you seem to think will happen when your ideas will be enacted, which are nothing more than a foolish dream. Notice I don't give a fuck. Also, I counter with the statement "Nothing is stupider than a crowd of people." If you went to a Tea Party gathering, you'd be the only person who disagreed with the speakers, does that mean that you are wrong, because nobody there disagrees with them but you? No, Scott, they're not. In a thread full of people with an interest in comic books - I'm not even going to bother stretching it out to the whole forum - Three (Three and a half, to be generous, justin seems to be a bit on the fence) people say they agree with you, out of twenty-one. That's a tiny minority, not the "Most of us" you seem to think it is. Remember, Scott, if someone doesn't WANT to argue with you, doesn't mean they agree with you. In fact, I'd say that I could pretty trivially find more people on these forums who have expressed an opinion that's along the lines of "Arguing with Scott is a really bad idea, because his arguments are ludicrous and silly" than people who agree with you on this issue so far. Hell, I've even been provided on occasion with past ludicrous arguments you made which I previously had no knowledge of, which I've declined to throw back at you for laughs, because that would be poor form, in my opinion.
Also, Let's not forget that even if the majority of people was against you, it wouldn't matter - the majority of people disagreed with you regarding the assassination show, and I'll bet my bottom dollar you're still convinced you're right. So, Scott, If you want me to retreat from my position despite being slightly outnumbered, why won't you retreat from yours when grossly outnumbered? Huh, did I actually say that? Are you sure it's not...Nothing? Are you absolutely sure you're not making shit up again? Are you sure I didn't say "I don't think the mainstream is trying that hard to break into comics" and later expressed an opinion that could be summarized to "They're not trying to get into comics, no matter what you do with the universe"? I don't know, I'm not like you, and I'm not willing to pretend I can read minds. Maybe they didn't ask someone who knows? Maybe they didn't go and find out? Maybe they're forgetting something? Maybe they're making zero effort to get into a particular hobby? Maybe they have unreasonable expectations? Or just maybe they're blaming the books for their own lapses - For example, Ro thought it was the book's fault that it had a big exposition on what had happened between two story arcs, when in reality, she'd just done the equivalent of hopping from, say, The first Harry Potter book to about halfway through the very last one. No offense to her, but that's her Fault, not DC's Fault. What, do you expect them to just stop selling books in between the two storylines? Stop advancing any plot or characters? Hate to break it to you, Scott my lad, the world does not exist at your convenience.
Frankly? Doing things takes effort. If you don't want to bring yourself to the bare minimum required - which is less than you are all making it out to be - that's your problem, not a problem with the books. You know as well as I do that the "Everybody gets a prize for showing up" idea doesn't happen in real life. I never said that you could. I simply said the barrier to entry isn't that high, even if you do have to put in minimal effort, like everything else in life. Guess what? Getting a DVD from netflix to watch, after deciding which movie you want to watch for whatever reason? Just as much effort - well, of the manner you're speaking - as going into a comic shop and buying a comic book, after you decide what book you want to buy for whatever reason. But more people prefer netflix, because it's a passive method of entertainment over an active one - once you have done that, there is zero effort required to consume it, unlike a written work, where you have to read and think a little more.
Picture of Churba:
Underwear pervert comics are dying. The fans and creators of same comics are the cause. They demand certain traditions remain because that is what they themselves want, but those same traditions (floppies, crossovers, events, etc.) prevent comics from becoming as popular as they have been and could be. Donald Duck has three times the circulation in just the small country of Finland than Green Lantern has in total. There are reasons for that. The convoluted continuity and crossover nonsense of the Marvel and DC universes is one of those reasons. I obviously can't convince you of that, but it's true whether you like it or not.
I fuckin' knew it, Rubin. You're still nothing more than an intellectually dishonest, narcissistic little coward.
Guess what? The offer to teach you ANYTHING I can possibly teach you about comics - if you just tell me what you want to know - is still open, despite the fact that you'd apparently rather act a childish little cunt. Even the bit where I said I'll be nicer than usual.
But I'll never have to go to the effort, because you're nothing more than an anti-intellectual coward, Puffing out his chest and strutting around, telling everyone else their problems, when he doesn't have the guts to say "Hey, I don't know. Can you tell me?"
Oh, and by the way, you sedentary, cowardly, dishonest, anti-intellectual piss-ant - not only do I know I've won this one, Since I've known you for long enough to know you only run crying in the manner of a scared child like this when someone really has your arse in a sling - but post all the fat pictures you like. I smoke and drink heavily, drink plenty of sugary soda, eat how the fuck I like, and I'll still beat you in any fair physical competition, you lazy, clueless little shit.
I could really keep going, maybe delve into jokes about shagging your mother, but let's face it, even if I was your father you still wouldn't be half of me, just as it is now, no matter how much money you make, no matter what city you live in, and no matter how many pictures you post.
Now do us a kindness and fuck right off.
No offense Churba, but your point would be much more well taken if you weren't such a fucking asshole too.
I mean, I read Sci-fi like many people read comic books - The one here and there, sometimes I might read a bit of a series, or if I'm really enjoying that particular thing, an entire series. I don't expect to be able to figure out everything, no matter if I walk in at book one, or book seven, but if I only read book two of five and I enjoy it, I don't worry about the fact I didn't read book one, even if I don't have the vital clues to some things. I don't go "Rugh, Too complicated for me to figure out what book is what and who is who and what books are good" because that's not reading sci-fi, that's putting reading sci-fi in the too hard basket. Comics can be easier, and they can be harder in much the same way - I mean, Look at the star wars EU for an example that will inevitably come back and bite me in the arse. You pick up a book one of the X-wing series, and you read it. You don't need to have seen star wars, you don't need to have read everything else in the EU, you might miss a few things, but you enjoy the book just as much. After all, that's almost exactly what worked pretty well for me when I was ten, and it's continued to work the whole time up till now. Sure, if I'd have picked up book four or six, I'd be a little more confused, but I can still figure it out. The first part is accurate, but for the latter part, I disagree. Let's take a Batman comic, and assume an american of our age, who can read competently, and has at least the general cultural understanding of batman(Ie, Bruce Wayne, rich guy, dresses up in a costume and hits criminals in the face at night, has a sidekick in circus tights called robin.) Your friend has said "Hey, you should read batman, it's cool" so you decide to. That's about all you need! If you don't like one book, Put it down, grab another, just like any other book. You don't understand what's happening and it seems like you're in the middle of a plot, check if you've got the start of an arc, a bunch of them will have X-of-X StorylineNAME! either on the cover or first few pages nowdays, and then go and grab the first one instead! You don't know something, Ask someone like the dude at the shop! If the guy at the shop is a dick to you, don't shop there!
I think you guys are the ones who are not quite understanding, here, it's not that different to any other reading-related hobby in regards to initial investment of effort, assuming you're a normal person who can read and count competently, and seems to have a handle on the idea that you start at the start of a story, go through the middle, and finish up at the end, since you're not through the looking glass last you checked. I don't believe that's any more true than the statement "It's fine to not make books into movies, if you only ever want reading to be a niche hobby." Guess what? People in general don't like to read as much as they like hooking into a movie or TV show - I mean, after all the numbers that give a book a decent spot on the New York Times best Sellers list are numbers that would get a TV show cancelled as a failure. I disagree. Back in the day, the real Heyday of comics, Everybody read. Books, magazines, papers. Being well-read was something respected, and being poorly read or not reading put you as the bottom of the totem pole. Now? Most people don't regularly read, if they read for pleasure at all. They Prefer TV shows and Movies. You're talking about an age where even the last bastions of popular reading - print magazines and newspapers - are dying out. As I said before, getting the top spot on the New York Times bestseller list is numbers that would have a TV show cancelled. I recall Adam Carolla's book got on the list without even the amount of sales a top selling title will do these days.
I don't think the problem is the books, the problem is the people. I mean, How many people have read Prince of Nothing? Does that make the book bad? God no! Yet, the barrier to entry on any of those books is just as high as an average comic book. I wouldn't be surprised it that would be the case, but I doubt it will get that far. After all, How many stamp collecting movies are there? How many TV shows? How much merchandising tie-ins? How many runs of stamps have the same Cultural Cachet as superman or batman, for example? And We're probably going to see more of it, because you can bet Warner and Disney didn't purchase the big two just to get them to print a few comics - It's all about the back catalog of characters they have built up that they can now use cheaply to make movies and shows, and of course, comics.
Hm. I might take this discussion over to Major Spoilers, too. Be interesting to see what opinions are like over there - especially if I also pose Scott's ideas, since he won't have the balls to pose such questions there, or to anyone properly educated in the world of comics.
Also, more likely to get informed and educated opinion specifically regarding comics, since regulars there include Comic book historians(Both industry and the actual books) and people like Dr Peter Coogan, Director of the Institute for Comic book studies, who is the closest thing I can think of off the top of my head to having a PHD in Comic Books and the comic book industry. You'd normally be right, but not in this case: The point wouldn't be taken better, because Scott has his conclusion, and therefore cannot be moved from it with a lever of any size. Scott wants to turn around to me and just go "Hurr durr yr that fat comic book guy" then he can fucking take an insult right back, the weak little cunt. If he's going to give, I'm going to give give it back and then some.
I might add - not to be insulting, but simply to be blunt and not dance around the issue - you don't have a great track record of not being a fucking arsehole in arguments either, so while you might speak from experience, it's still the pot calling the kettle black.
So, we go to the store, and against the wall, they have rack after rack of all the new comics. I could see my friend's eyes just gloss over as the (literal) wall of comics were just too much for him. We went over to the owner sitting behind the counter and asked him what the X-Men comics were. He showed us a subscription list, listing all the current X-Men comics:
Age of X Universe
Age Of X: Alpha
Astonishing X-Men / Astonishing X-Men: Xenogenesis
Chaos War: X-Men
Dark X-Men
Heroic Age: X-Men
Nation X
New Mutants
Ultimate Comics X
Uncanny X-Force
Uncanny X-Men
Wolverine: Weapon X / Wolverine (new ongoing series)
X-Factor
X-Factor Forever
X-Men / X-Men Giant Size #1
X-Men Forever
X-Men: Legacy
X-Men: Second Coming
(I might have forgotten some)
My friend and I look at this list and he looks at me and asks: "Who are the New Mutants?" Well, I said to him, they used to be a bunch of younger mutants who were X-Men in training, kind of like the new movie. "Ok, he says, what about all these Ultimate comics I see... Ultimate Spiderman, etc.?" The Ultimate universe is kind of like a new rebooting of the old Marvel Universe, I say, where it's not part of the regular continuity and things are different. My friend is getting more and more lost. "What about X-Factor?" he ask. X-Factor, I say, was originally made up of the original X-Men members, who left to form their own team, but then they rejoined the X-Men, and there were actually two X-men teams, one led by Cyclops, and the other led by Storm, and a new bunch of mutants became X-Factor, but I have no idea who's on X-Factor now. "And Wolverine has his own comic?" he asks? Yup, I said.
"Forget this!" my friend said, "I just thought the movie was cool. I don't even know where to start in this mess. Are there any comics that are like the movie?" We ask the store owner and he tells us about X-Men First class the comic, but even then, that's different from the movie and points us to where all the trade paperbacks are for the X-Men, recommending the Dark Phoenix Saga, Grant Morrison's New X-Men (whatever that is) and a bunch of other stuff.
My friend just says "fuck this..." under his breath, goes over to the shelf of trades and gets Scott Pilgrim volume 1. He takes it over to the counter and asks the owner: "The movie was based off of this, right?" Yes, the owner says. "And how many Scott Pilgrim comics are there?" Just the 6 volumes. "Is it done?" Yes. "I'll take this then." My friend says, buying the Scott Pilgrim book and walking out of the store.
Now, my friend is a pretty big nerd/geek whatever you want to call it. He plays Pathfinder, he plays all kinds of videogames, he can probably quote you entire episodes of Firefly from memory, but he's never read comics before. All he wanted was something similar and easy like the movie we just saw.
THIS is the problem with superhero comics.
Marvel did Ultimates right. They need to do the entire universe like that.
I'd argue that Marvel Ultimates counts because the Ultimate universe is entirely self-contained to the Ultimates comics line.
EDIT: Wow, typos errywhere. I need to be better about proofreading.
Also, I gotta say, X-men IS actually pretty complex. It's been going since about the early sixties, without a major reboot, reorganization, update - though I think they had a re-numbering without changing anything, I'm not sure - or much like that at all. The entire run of the comic is a single continuity, number 1 to Number whatever-we're-up-to, describing a 16 year span in the universe. You can read from The X-men #1 through to Uncanny X-men(It got a rename, but it's the same book) god-knows-what-now and you have everything you need in that single title - everything else is a spin-off and not entirely relevant, unless you have a burning desire to know in detail.
Waitaminute... Good plan. Yeah, I'd go with that. Makes sense.
Runaways, I guess even though it has a little bit of Civil War
Ex Machina
Watchmen
The Boys
Sandman
Preacher
Say... There's a lot of crossover between this list and the list of the greatest comics of all time. COINCIDENCE?!
Then, you will be well on the way to fixing comics.
Yeah, screw that. I'll just play Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 some more times and read the Wikipedia page.
So, Moving on, and adding to Rubin's starter list -
The Dark Knight Returns and the sequel The Dark Knight Strikes Again (Yep, it's batman, but it's entirely self contained.)
Kick-Ass
Invincible and Irredeemable
Atomic Robo
V for Vendetta
All Star Superman(A single run, start to finish, isolated)
All Star Batman and Robin (Ditto)
Batman Year One and Year Two(Literally keeps entirely to itself)
Ex Machina
Tank Girl
Rai
Astro City
Alan Moore's Swamp Thing
WE3
WANTED
Powers
Empowered
Invisibles
League Of extraordinary gentlemen
Hellboy
Salvador
Talent
Boom!'s run of Darkwing Duck
Black Dynamite
The Life and Times of Savior 28
That's off the top of my head, I'm probably forgetting a TON of books.
Read Akira fools!
Comics like Scott is trying to talk about, like the Batman books, have all been around for decades and they's all had multiple creative types behind them. This necessarily means that there will be a little more history than something like The Walking Dead. If the history is a little daunting to the new reader, Wikipedia exists. Even if it didn't, the effort to break in isn't really that hard.
As long as we're talking convoluted continuities, look at Star Wars and Star Trek. We've already seen an attempt to reboot Star Trek.
It's just a function of multiple creators and history. If you have some franchise that multiple people work on for a great number of years, it will acquire some baggage. The only question is, is it worth it to become familiar with the baggage and exactly how much baggage do you need to be familiar with to enjoy a story? Personally, I find that I simply don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the entire history of The Flash to enjoy a Flash story.
My opinion of the Scott/Churba dispute in this thread is that Scott wants desperately to show that he's very much above something so pedestrian as superhero books, and that, like any other hipster, his tastes are much more refined than ours. Churba, on the other hand, seems to have a much deeper working knowledge of the industry and the reasons why these stories can have value. It's pretty much a style over substance issue, with Scott representing the style side of "Oh, I'm way too cool for superhero books." I've never really liked the Lanterns all that much. I WANT to, because I think their idea has potential for some good stories, but most of the time they all seem like tremendous jerks to me, with the exception of Kilowog and Tomar-Re.
With the reasoning of your opinion HJ, you could say that Scott could get just as much substance from reading less vs. the substance of the vast majority of comics that Churba has read.
Personally, I'd rather get the most out of the least instead of having to read through tons of stuff and get small bits here and there. I think both have good points, but I side closer to Scott.
An example is the Star Wars extended universe. I never read one of those books until about five years ago. The continuity that you read about in Wikipedia is a little daunting, but I just started reading a couple of the books. I haven't gone through them with the aid of some continuity list or anything, and I haven't worried about knowing the whole continuity from start to finish. I've found that you don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of that continuity to enjoy a good Star Wars story, so I just read the books I want. However, I've gotten a pretty good handle on the extended continuity. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. So far, I've felt rewarded enough by the good to keep coming back.
Okay, if convoluted continuity and complicated backstory equals declining sales, are the sales of all those Star Wars and Star Trek novels down? I'm asking because I honestly don't know, but they seem to keep churning them out, so they must have value to someone.
I'd say that some of that continuity can be just as daunting to a newcomer as any comic book title. I know it was to me when I started reading the Star Wars books. However, I just picked a book, started reading, and didn't have any trouble.
I think what turned me off from DC is Superman. I have a Red Lantern-esque hatred for Supes.