I have here weekly, local board gaming club and the reason why I don't go there is pretty much the opposite of this episode. I'm total noob in board gaming, and not that good in them so I don't want to go there and be that guy who doesn't know the rules for the games and isn't in any way a serious competition. Or to be exact I'd like to go there and play some board games, but I'm just too imitated to do so.
I have here weekly, local board gaming club and the reason why I don't go there is pretty much the opposite of this episode. I'm total noob in board gaming, and not that good in them so I don't want to go there and be that guy who doesn't know the rules for the games and isn't in any way a serious competition. Or to be exact I'd like to go there and play some board games, but I'm just too imitated to do so.
You should definitely go. Nobody there will actually be hardcore. I've never met a board game group that isn't happy to have new people and teach them the rules. Any such groups would not be open to the public.
Every time I've been too intimidated to do something, I've wanted to go back and smack myself. You'd best be going to this board game group! Trust me, I only got back into board gaming about 2 1/2 years ago now, and I nubbed it up for most of that time across several different groups, but I don't ever recall a single groan. You'll be fine. Let us know how it goes.
I hesitated putting this on here since it was pro wrestling related, but it kinda ties in with the episode. Being a pro wrestling geek, I watch tons of the stuff. While the average fan might watch WWE and TNA, along with a few commercially produced DVDs, I watch everything. Japanese, Mexican, British, the older American territorial system, the newer indy promotions (Ring of Honor, Chikara Pro, Pro Wrestling Guerrilla, etc), and older stuff from the 30s and forward. This presents a problem when I'm chatting with casual fans, as they don't have the depth of knowledge and experience that I do. It becomes either I have to excuse myself or make it seem like I'm trying to be superior in my wrestling knowledge (pro wrestling geeks are probably more whiny and bitchy than anime geeks). Thankfully, there are forums and websites that I can share this with, but on a local level, almost impossible.
My cousin and I relate to this episode heavily. Though our levels of hardcore may not be as high as Rym or Scott with board games; just paying any attention to the games we play with our friends puts us hopelessly ahead of them. It's gotten to the point that we restrict certain strategies before a game starts and have fun playing with handicaps while still trying to win.
It's gotten to the point that we restrict certain strategies before a game starts and have fun playing with handicaps while still trying to win.
When I played Street Fighter against nubs I would try to beat them only with the jab button. I learned that lesson because people online would be me with jab only.
It's gotten to the point that we restrict certain strategies before a game starts and have fun playing with handicaps while still trying to win.
When I played Street Fighter against nubs I would try to beat them only with the jab button. I learned that lesson because people online would be me with jab only.
If you ever find yourself in Austin you guys need to check out Pinballz over 80 pinball machines and lots of old school 80's arcade machines. There is also a DDR an Pump it Up machine. Pinballz Arcade
That place is awesome! I dumped in so much time to that X-FIles and both Star Trek pinball machines.
Here's another board game related hardcore topic. I haven't seen anyone on these forums (Rym and Scott included) who have been to the big board game gatherings/conventions: Origins, GenCon, BoardGameGeek.Con, Essen Spiel, etc. These events look like a heaping pile of crap when compared to PAXes, from a con organization standpoint, but one thing is for sure, they're going to be filled to the brim with people who will play the most hardcore of games for an entire weekend. Does your increasing feeling of being backed into the hardcore corner up the chance that you might travel to one of these events?
I don't think I'm quite there yet. I'm pretty happy with my local friends and the Wednesday group, but I am finally starting to understand the appeal. MTV was going to send me to GenCon, and I wouldn't have turned down the free trip, but it was too close to the release date for Sims 4. If I'm still working for them next year I will probably wind up going.
Even if GenCon or Origins have hardcore players, those players will largely be playing in scheduled games. Those scheduled games are ticketed in addition to the convention itself at additional cost.
Talking mostly about video games rather than board games here, my only problem with the hardcore crowd and the games that appeal to them (as somebody who, when he was a fifteen-year old caffeine junkie, was so deep into hardcore C&C Generals online that to this day I can still run an optimally timed base build and rush with any subfaction) is that emergent gameplay tends to get kind of quashed when the only thing that matters is twitch reflexes or APM applied to rote memorized strategies.
One of the things I liked about Generals was that the counters were loose enough and the options diverse enough that you needed to have a very broad skillset indeed to be very good at the game. APM and a build order could still be beaten handily by a player who was taking his time and being creative; in Starcraft, the equivalent of the Rockvee Rush is the endgame and the only thing that really matters is who pulls it off fastest and most precisely, but over the thousands of games of General's I played over several years, even encountering or using that tactic every second game at it's peak, I would see it defeated, delayed, resisted or avoided in new and interesting ways over and over. Even the statistically most effective tactic was not so much more likely to succeed than other options or even straight creative thinking that it could even be thought of as your primary tool, and by the end of General's lifespan as a competitive game the Rockvee Rush had been mostly sidelined, used only to roll new players. While the level of play in Generals certainly improved, the game never became static. If anything, more play options were discovered than discarded by the end of it's run.
If the competition curve for a "competitive" game is an exponential rise, with each little bit of specialized skill putting you a ton more above the next level down, I think my favourite games sort of have the opposite curve; nubs and stupid players get pwned forever because they do not understand the game, and the game is complex enough that "the basics" don't really cover it, but a smart person with an understanding of those mechanics has a fair chance against people all around him on the skill curve. Skill gives you better odds, more options, and better ability to recover from inevitable mistakes, but unless the person is actually unaware of what he is doing, you should never have an easy time. Maybe there are actually a lot of these curves in this sort of game. Maybe the curve is more shaped like a banana.
I don't know curves.
While there is joy in solving games, I think there is also joy in games that have too much depth, too many interacting variables, loose enough rules or even a tiny bit of randomness to ever fully master or even claim optimization, where a clever casual player can occasionally take a pro by surprise and the reaction to losing isn't "gg" but "Well, I'm boned, time to do something creative" and occasionally seeing it pay off, if not enough to win, then enough to bloody the nose of your opponent.
Give me novelty over optimization. Challenge over competition. Show me something new every time and keep me thinking on my feet.
I hesitated putting this on here since it was pro wrestling related, but it kinda ties in with the episode. Being a pro wrestling geek, I watch tons of the stuff. While the average fan might watch WWE and TNA, along with a few commercially produced DVDs, I watch everything. Japanese, Mexican, British, the older American territorial system, the newer indy promotions (Ring of Honor, Chikara Pro, Pro Wrestling Guerrilla, etc), and older stuff from the 30s and forward. This presents a problem when I'm chatting with casual fans, as they don't have the depth of knowledge and experience that I do. It becomes either I have to excuse myself or make it seem like I'm trying to be superior in my wrestling knowledge (pro wrestling geeks are probably more whiny and bitchy than anime geeks). Thankfully, there are forums and websites that I can share this with, but on a local level, almost impossible.
I totally understand what you mean. As the wrestling geek at my store, I'd get tons of blank looks for reccomending indy DVDs to people at the store and such. People come to me for info, but 99% of people don't know anything outside of WWE/Impact(have to get into the habit of typing that instead of TNA). I have gotten people to watch some New Japan if I provide the video, though.
I have gotten people to watch some New Japan if I provide the video, though.
As with most geek type things, people with an interest will watch the stuff provided that you do all the legwork for them. That's sort of how I got my friends into Chikara.
I have gotten people to watch some New Japan if I provide the video, though.
As with most geek type things, people with an interest will watch the stuff provided that you do all the legwork for them. That's sort of how I got my friends into Chikara.
Agreed. You Tube has loads of video from the British show World of Sport:
If your in Monmouth County NJ there's an awesome pinball place I found out about a year ago. Silverball Pinball Museum is located in Asbury Park, (right near The Stone Pony) All the machines are set to free play and they charge you 10 bucks an hour or 20 for an all day pass. They have about 200 machines and they range from the 50s to the 90s. There are more older models than newer ones (which I prefer) but there are a few fun newer ones like: The Twilight Zone, Attack From Mars, The Simpsons, and The Addams Family. Best of all they have my all time favorite machine there, the 1988 classic: Cyclone, based on the Coney Island Amusement Park.
They even keep track of the high scores registered on each machine so you have something to shoot for. I beat a high score my last visit on a 1970s machine called "Rock and Roll" and got two free passes. I hope that on my next visit it hasn't been beaten yet but even if it has, hey, I got two free all day passes out of it.
I live very close to the Silverball Museum and have mentioned it a few times on these forums. It puts all these other pinball places people keep mentioning to shame.
edifolco/jmerm: didn't realize there was anyone else from central NJ on here, thought I was the only one. If you're ever looking to get some board gaming on, I've been going to a very good local group on Wednesday nights (7:30PM) at Ocean Lanes bowling alley on the Lakewood/Brick border.
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I don't think I'm quite there yet. I'm pretty happy with my local friends and the Wednesday group, but I am finally starting to understand the appeal. MTV was going to send me to GenCon, and I wouldn't have turned down the free trip, but it was too close to the release date for Sims 4. If I'm still working for them next year I will probably wind up going.
One of the things I liked about Generals was that the counters were loose enough and the options diverse enough that you needed to have a very broad skillset indeed to be very good at the game. APM and a build order could still be beaten handily by a player who was taking his time and being creative; in Starcraft, the equivalent of the Rockvee Rush is the endgame and the only thing that really matters is who pulls it off fastest and most precisely, but over the thousands of games of General's I played over several years, even encountering or using that tactic every second game at it's peak, I would see it defeated, delayed, resisted or avoided in new and interesting ways over and over. Even the statistically most effective tactic was not so much more likely to succeed than other options or even straight creative thinking that it could even be thought of as your primary tool, and by the end of General's lifespan as a competitive game the Rockvee Rush had been mostly sidelined, used only to roll new players. While the level of play in Generals certainly improved, the game never became static. If anything, more play options were discovered than discarded by the end of it's run.
If the competition curve for a "competitive" game is an exponential rise, with each little bit of specialized skill putting you a ton more above the next level down, I think my favourite games sort of have the opposite curve; nubs and stupid players get pwned forever because they do not understand the game, and the game is complex enough that "the basics" don't really cover it, but a smart person with an understanding of those mechanics has a fair chance against people all around him on the skill curve. Skill gives you better odds, more options, and better ability to recover from inevitable mistakes, but unless the person is actually unaware of what he is doing, you should never have an easy time. Maybe there are actually a lot of these curves in this sort of game. Maybe the curve is more shaped like a banana.
I don't know curves.
While there is joy in solving games, I think there is also joy in games that have too much depth, too many interacting variables, loose enough rules or even a tiny bit of randomness to ever fully master or even claim optimization, where a clever casual player can occasionally take a pro by surprise and the reaction to losing isn't "gg" but "Well, I'm boned, time to do something creative" and occasionally seeing it pay off, if not enough to win, then enough to bloody the nose of your opponent.
Give me novelty over optimization. Challenge over competition. Show me something new every time and keep me thinking on my feet.
They even keep track of the high scores registered on each machine so you have something to shoot for. I beat a high score my last visit on a 1970s machine called "Rock and Roll" and got two free passes. I hope that on my next visit it hasn't been beaten yet but even if it has, hey, I got two free all day passes out of it.