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Patent Law Reform

edited September 2011 in Politics
Obama is going to sign a bill that's passed both House and Senate with little public notice.

It will change the US from a "first to invent" system to a "first to file" system in granting patents.

Do you think this is a good thing?

Comments

  • I'd have to hear arguments from both sides, but my gut instinct is no. It sounds like it paves the way for back-stabbing and would reward corporate espionage. Think about it: If you can steal your rival's materials and file them first....
  • edited September 2011
    Need more information, but making it "first to file" seems like a surefire way to make a lot of bullshit happen.

    [Edit] Ninja'd by Jason.
    Post edited by Sail on
  • I don't know what the law says yet. However, all the talk is about helping small businesses get patents, as if that will help boost the economy. Letting small businesses get patents more easily doesn't help them. The only way to help them is to remove patents from big companies. Nobody can start a business because they get sued out of existence by some patent troll.
  • Do you think it would encourage lots of garbage filings as companies race to file on anything that might look the least bit valuable?

    Does this benefit the small companies that actually create jobs in the US, or the huge companies that are net job outsourcers?
  • Are small businesses raking in the patents? I don't think they are. We're past the industrial revolution. We've run out of "simple" patents for small businesses with limited resources. Let's be honest here. We're really concerned with $20 million pharmaceuticals with 12-year development cycles. Small firms aren't really part of the picture.
  • Do you think it would encourage lots of garbage filings as companies race to file on anything that might look the least bit valuable?
    This already happens.
  • edited September 2011
    Are small businesses raking in the patents? I don't think they are. We're past the industrial revolution. We've run out of "simple" patents for small businesses with limited resources.
    Obviously, the bigger guys have more patent action, but I don't think that small companies stopped being relevant in the patent field right after the industrial revolution. Small companies still can contribute, but the new change might make it more difficult for them to do so.
    Do you think it would encourage lots of garbage filings as companies race to file on anything that might look the least bit valuable?
    This already happens.
    Does it? Care to cite some statistics? Look - right now, records kept in lab largely determine when the invention came about. Companies have a one year grace period to determine whether that invention is really economically viable and ready to patent.

    Patents are not a trivial thing. They can cost somewhere along the lines of $10,000.00 and above and take a long, long time to shepherd through the system. Companies and inventors don't want to start this process unless they're pretty sure they'll benefit in some way. There might be some stories about some wacky guy patenting some wacky, useless invention for his own vanity, but I'd say the current system encourages prudence in deciding whether to seek a patent.

    It's easy to see how a system that encourages a race to file would result in many, many minor little innovations being filed just for protection purposes. Also, large companies would have even more of an advantage than they already do now due to their huge war chests of litigation moneys.

    Finally, if what mattered was who file first rather than who could prove that they came up with the idea for the invention first, wouldn't that encourage simple theft? If "first to file" is what matters, what's to stop the football captain fraternity guy from stealing the idea of the geeky inventor, running down to the patent office, and getting all the benefit?

    Here's an example - the guy who invented the "Merlin" game developed it with his wife and his brother-in-law. Under a "first to file" system, what would stop the brother-in-law from just stealing everything, running down to the patent office, and enjoying all the benefit?
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Do you think it would encourage lots of garbage filings as companies race to file on anything that might look the least bit valuable?
    This already happens.
    Does it?
    Patent trolls.
  • Are small businesses raking in the patents? I don't think they are. We're past the industrial revolution. We've run out of "simple" patents for small businesses with limited resources.
    Obviously, the bigger guys have more patent action, but I don't think that small companies stopped being relevant in the patent field right after the industrial revolution. Small companies still can contribute, but the new change might make it more difficult for them to do so.
    Agreed. My company is relatively small -- under 200 people, and we have several patents.
  • edited September 2011
    Do you think it would encourage lots of garbage filings as companies race to file on anything that might look the least bit valuable?
    This already happens.
    Does it?
    Patent trolls.
    That's not quite what we're talking about here. I agree that this is a problem, but those guys buy patents from bankrupt companies, or use existing patents in a way to "troll" for money through litigation. They're usually not the ones doing the original patent work themselves, and they usually don't have any intention to benefit from the actual invention. They just seek to benefit from the litigation.

    What I'm talking about is an encouragement for someone like the Dyson vacuum guy to think, "Oh, I just had an idea. I'd better run to the patent office and patent it now even without spending the time to learn if it might be worth anything just to protect my own interests."

    Another thought - Do you think this might cause a chilling effect on publication and sharing information? Why would Reed Richards publish an article that might contain a grain of a patentable idea if Peter Parker could read it and then run to the patent office and patent it?
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • Agreed. My company is relatively small -- under 200 people, and we have several patents.
    Which is more likely: That Congress is making this law for YOU, or that it's making this law for Pfizer?
  • What I'm talking about is an encouragement for someone like the Dyson vacuum guy to think, "Oh, I just had an idea. I'd better run to the patent office and patent it now even without spending the time to learn if it might be worth anything just to protect my own interests."
    Mmm, I see.

    The idea of "first to file" kind of seems to be in direct opposition to the ideals of copyright, doesn't it?
  • Have we ever had a "first to file" patent system in the country before?

    I mean, the way I look at it, patents are fucked up right now. This could create problems, but it could also protect the interests of the prospective small business owner.

    Think of it like this: if you're a dude in your garage inventing something, odds are you probably don't have lots of capital to throw around. So you get an idea, but then you actually have to gather the resources to invent the thing. That often requires capital raising, which can make your idea vulnerable - you put the idea out there to investors, and someone with sufficient funding could steal the idea, make it, and patent it before you can.

    "First to file" could give an opportunity to the under-funded to obtain protection for their idea and then engage in capital raising, while having the security of a patent protection.

    Of course, it totally allows for the patent equivalent of domain squatting, which might make some things harder.
  • edited September 2011

    Think of it like this: if you're a dude in your garage inventing something, odds are you probably don't have lots of capital to throw around. So you get an idea, but then you actually have to gather the resources to invent the thing. That often requires capital raising, which can make your idea vulnerable - you put the idea out there to investors, and someone with sufficient funding could steal the idea, make it, and patent it before you can.
    Under the "first to invent" system, the garage inventing dude would be protected. The only thing he needs is good records to prove that he was the first to have the idea.

    Remember Robert Kearns, the guy who invented the intermittent windshield wiper? His story is almost exactly the same as your hypothetical in which a garage inventor dude goes to some big money dudes, who then steal his idea. Kearns won every case he tried against the big car manufacturers who stole his idea because he was protected under the "first to invent" system. Under a "first to file" system, Kearns would have been out of luck.

    "First to file" could give an opportunity to the under-funded to obtain protection for their idea and then engage in capital raising, while having the security of a patent protection.
    I understand your point here, but the reason that garage guys need big money guys is that the whole patent process is very lengthy and very expensive. It's not something you can do through LegalZoom (well, LegalZoom will claim that they can help you, but they conveniently neglect to completely fill you in on the actual fees the USPTO charges, and their "help" in this area amounts to pretty much the same thing as Dr. Nick helping you to perform an appendectomy on yourself by talking you through it on the phone, with about the same likelihood of a successful result). If you're under-funded, you're not going to have the money to get the patent in the first place. If you do somehow spend all the time and money to get a patent first, and then try to market your invention to the big money guys who do some analysis that shows your invention is worthless, you're out thousands of dollars and years of your life for nothing.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • but it could also protect the interests of the prospective small business owner.
    Not with software. Everything you want to do, even basic things, already is covered by a dozen patents. No small business has the resources to challenge one, let alone a dozen. Things that are the software equivalent of "A container for water that can be labelled in a structured way" are patented in every possible permutation by a gaggle of companies.

    Software patents are literally the worst thing to ever happen to the software industry.
  • If you're under-funded, you're not going to have the money to get the patent in the first place. If you do somehow spend all the time and money to get a patent first, and then try to market your invention to the big money guys who do some analysis that shows your invention is worthless, you're out thousands of dollars and years of your life for nothing.
    Hm. Good point. I'd like to read over the new law and see what the deal is.
  • Some day there will be algorithmic patent filing. People will setup computers to mine patents like they mine bitcoins. Since there are almost no truly new ideas, patents are just combinations of existing ideas that nobody has thought of yet. Since there is no limit to the number of things you are allowed to combine, there are nearly infinite patentable combinations of ideas. Computers will take databases of existing ideas and automatically generate patent filings out of various combinations of those ideas. The ideas will then be checked against the patent database to see if they have been already filed. If not, they will be filed in the name of the owner of that computer.

    After that, the lawsuits will also be automated. Anyone who is mining patents will also mine the news to automatically detect any company violating those patents without licensing them. They will then automatically file lawsuits against those companies, and even negotiate settlements and license fees, and accept those fees, without any human interaction on the part of the "patent holder".

    That's basically the system we have now for software patents, just much much slower.

    All software is math. You shouldn't be able to patent math. It's a law of the universe, not an invention. Most things either have patents or copyrights. Software has both. It should just have copyright. Nothing needs both. All software patents should be immediately and permanently invalidated.
  • The pharmaceutical industry is a perfect example of an industry in which patents are ruining everything. Take for example, the case of Nexium. Nexium is a drug called esomeprazole. It replaced a drug called omeprazole, better known as Prilosec, when that drug's patent expired. You may notice the similarity in names; Nexium's chemical name is S-omeprazole, which is the S-enantiomer of omeprazole. They are essentially the exact same drug; the only difference is in shape. It is true that there is often a difference in how the body handles different enantiomers, but in the case of esomeprazole and omeprazole, there is no consensus on whether or not the drug is actually better. AstraZeneca's studies claim that it is superior, but there has been a massive amount of criticism of the studies (people believe that AZ-funded studies may have been skewed to show an "improvement"); furthermore, both S- and R-omeprazole convert to the same active drug in the stomach. The result is that AstraZeneca quite likely abused the patent system and a property of chemistry to patent the same drug twice and make billions. This isn't unique; patenting isomers and enantiomers in the hope of finding a marketable compound happens constantly in the pharmaceutical industry.

    Now, what Scott is predicting will happen with patent mining is happening with drugs. Both Norvasc and Lipitor, Pfizer's two most profitable drugs in the American market (due to obesity and heart disease) are about to reach patent expiration. Instead of inventing new and better drugs, Pfizer has combined the two into a single pill called Caduet and patented that as a "fixed dose combination drug" to keep selling it. The result is that their revenue keeps flowing, and they don't make any technological progress. Antibiotics have similar problems; why look for a new family when you can just alter one you already have?

    The patent system has almost single-handedly destroyed the notion of innovation in pharmaceuticals. If you want reform, do not allow pharmaceutical companies to patent their drug enantiomers, isomers, or combinations. Allow them to patent release mechanisms and molecular formulas and retain patents for no more than three years or some otherwise short period of time. From then on, only pharmaceutical companies producing good, safe products will be able to survive.
  • Math is a law of the universe, not an invention.
    That's apparently a topic of debate even in mathematics.
  • That's apparently a topic of debate even in mathematics.
    Even so, you discover math the same way you discover a star. You don't invent it.
  • That's apparently a topic of debate even in mathematics.
    Even so, you discover math the same way you discover a star. You don't invent it.
    At this point, it is no longer a point of debate in mathematics, but in philosophy.
  • As Rym mentioned, the patent system is broken when it comes to software patents. There's a This American Life episode about it here.
  • edited September 2011
    The pharmaceutical industry is a perfect example of an industry in which patents are ruining everything. Take for example, the case of Nexium. Nexium is a drug called esomeprazole. It replaced a drug called omeprazole, better known as Prilosec, when that drug's patent expired. You may notice the similarity in names; Nexium's chemical name is S-omeprazole, which is the S-enantiomer of omeprazole. They are essentially the exact same drug; the only difference is in shape. It is true that there is often a difference in how the body handles different enantiomers, but in the case of esomeprazole and omeprazole, there is no consensus on whether or not the drug is actually better. AstraZeneca's studies claim that it is superior, but there has been a massive amount of criticism of the studies (people believe that AZ-funded studies may have been skewed to show an "improvement"); furthermore, both S- and R-omeprazole convert to the same active drug in the stomach. The result is that AstraZeneca quite likely abused the patent system and a property of chemistry to patent the same drug twice and make billions. This isn't unique; patenting isomers and enantiomers in the hope of finding a marketable compound happens constantly in the pharmaceutical industry.
    Ummm.. But you could still make a generic on the original drug formula .. so I fail to see how this ruins everything.
    Now, what Scott is predicting will happen with patent mining is happening with drugs. Both Norvasc and Lipitor, Pfizer's two most profitable drugs in the American market (due to obesity and heart disease) are about to reach patent expiration. Instead of inventing new and better drugs, Pfizer has combined the two into a single pill called Caduet and patented that as a "fixed dose combination drug" to keep selling it. The result is that their revenue keeps flowing, and they don't make any technological progress. Antibiotics have similar problems; why look for a new family when you can just alter one you already have?
    This however is a HUGE problem in pharma right now. However, what we are seeing in Big Pharma is they are just starting to be patent/investing companies for smaller companies instead of doing their own research. Honestly this would be a problem regardless of how patent law worked. The companies have picked a lot of the easy fruit, they divested themselves of research and pretty much behaved in a way to get the best short term gains while not thinking about the long term. Now they need to do something and instead they seem to still not be willing to spend that money on research.
    The patent system has almost single-handedly destroyed the notion of innovation in pharmaceuticals. If you want reform, do not allow pharmaceutical companies to patent their drug enantiomers, isomers, or combinations. Allow them to patent release mechanisms and molecular formulas and retain patents for no more than three years or some otherwise short period of time. From then on, only pharmaceutical companies producing good, safe products will be able to survive.
    Well, that's a very bond claim. There are actually many reasons why innovation has been stifled in pharma. One of the big factors is when the money dried up in the recession/housing crisis people were not willing to fund the small biotechs which do all the cutting edge research. (and when they discover something, they are bought up by the big pharma) The drug industry realized with it's ton of money it can actually make more investing instead of actually researching. (and doing illegal stuff like pushing there drugs for unapproved uses) Some dumb regulations (like the stem cell BS) screwed up some projects. The bonus for me is a lot of pharma is outsourcing their labs, and since I work for a outsourcing lab company we are doing pretty good.
    Post edited by Cremlian on
  • This already has enough signatures to get an official response. I don't think it will get anything more than that, but more signatures couldn't hurt.

    https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/direct-patent-office-cease-issuing-software-patents/vvNslSTq?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl
  • This already has enough signatures to get an official response. I don't think it will get anything more than that, but more signatures couldn't hurt.
    I signed it, but I too am not optimistic about its success, especially considering that most of the petitions on that site are basically "WE KNOW YOU CONTACTED ALIENS! DISCLOSE INFORMATION!" or "MARIJUANA SHOULD BE LEGAL!"
  • This already has enough signatures to get an official response. I don't think it will get anything more than that, but more signatures couldn't hurt.
    I signed it, but I too am not optimistic about its success, especially considering that most of the petitions on that site are basically "WE KNOW YOU CONTACTED ALIENS! DISCLOSE INFORMATION!" or "MARIJUANA SHOULD BE LEGAL!"
    The software patent one worked. It's worth a shot. It's not like it costs money.
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