GeekNights 20110914 - Final Thoughts: Puella Magi Madoka Magica [Spoilers]

MrPeriod

Tonight on GeekNights, we present our final thoughts (spoilers!) on the fantastic and recent Puella Magi Madoka Magica. It is safe to say that this is one of the better shows we've seen in recent memory. But first, we geekbite issue #1 of Justice League! Also, since Madoka is on the mind, check out this interview with Atsuhiro Iwakami.

• Rym's Thing - Link with a Portal Gun
• Scott's Thing - Fat Tabby

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KapitänTim

I now can not wait to go to work tomorrow so I can listen to this show. Hey everyone else, where do you listen to the show?

Greg

Everywhere. I'm omnipresent man.

J.Sharp

Walpurgis Night seems to be a reference to a festival of witches in Faust, which is very thematic for this show.

Not nine

Walpurgis Night seems to be a reference to a festival of witches in Faust, which is very thematic for this show.

It is. Madoka is little more than a widescreen, cute, Japanese, teenaged Faust. There's some magical girl stuff in the way though, making it not completely Faust: Teh Animu.

Greg

Gonzo should make a Faust Animu. Look at what they did with Count of Monte Christo and Romeo and Juliet. They're very good if their script is already proven to be awesome.

Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)

In fact, after checking the internet, all of the runic script is a character-substitution cipher for German. The witches' names are all in German, and more or less all of the other instances of runic script are lines from Faust.

Not nine

I feel like Captain Obvious got turned into a pony, died, and is now substituting for a piñata.

gomidog

There was a passage of German graffiti written on the wall of an abandoned building. I wondered what that was about. I bet that was from Faust too.

lackofcheese

Scott: "How does she know the Waspurgis [sic] Night is coming? ... it comes at the same time every time."
Way to miss the best quote of the series. Correct answer: "Statistics".

Also, a minor gloat: After they revealed the groundhog day, I realised the source of Madoka's power before they explained it in episode 11.

lackofcheese

If she was so shell shocked and knew the consequences of the Faustian choice, why didn't she leave? Instead she hung around like a bad smell, doing dumb shit like interfering is a magical girl showdown. When she was told not to, unless you're a magical girl by QB. Sayaka maned up and made the choice despite Homura's warnings and knowing less about the consequences.

I said as much in previous posts, my REASONS still stand!.

You know what? You're way, way off base here. Madoka was a very strong character throughout the series - she was the most emotionally stable 100% of the time, and considering the entire show is about the whole balance of happiness vs despair, that's quite meaningful in the context of the series. Indeed, in every single one of the other timelines they showed, Madoka was consistently the most heroic character.

Also, you say Madoka is whiny, but I can't even remember a single example of what I would call "whining" from Madoka. Granted, I'm sure there was probably a couple, but even so, she hardly deserves the label "whiny".

She was just as strong of character in the final timeline as she was in every single one of the flashbacks, where she was already a magical girl. The only difference in the last one is that Madoka was better-informed. To use Scott's video game analogy, she used the FAQ and saved her one-time-use superpower for the final boss.

MATATAT

"...it's so Batman..."

Reminded me of this

chaosof99

There was a passage of German graffiti written on the wall of an abandoned building. I wondered what that was about. I bet that was from Faust too.

Indeed, it is. However, SHAFT also rather misspelled it.

(Also found this image by searching for "Puella Magi Madoka Magica Faust").

lackofcheese

Scott: "How does she know the Waspurgis [sic] Night is coming? ... it comes at the same time every time."
Way to miss the best quote of the series. Correct answer: "Statistics".

Okay, so you mentioned this quote later in the episode, at least, but you should've used it right from the start! Homura was completely telling the truth when she said "statistics".

chaosof99

Interesting that Rym said that Kyubey could be planting the Grief Seeds in the world again. On my second watch through yesterday, I was wondering how come there are more witches than magical girls. Witches are born from magical girls, but a) not all magical girls become witches. Some simply die in fights with witches, i.e. Mami in the primary timeline. and b) one magical girl will kill many witches before she turns (I can't even imagine how many witches, identical ones but repeatedly, Homura must have killed in order to sustain her groundhog day without turning into a witch herself). Kyoko at one point said that familiars of witches can turn into witches themselves if they kill enough humans and that was a somewhat reasonable explanation. However, Kyubey planting the grief seeds in the world again makes much more sense.

Not nine

I can't even imagine how many witches, identical ones but repeatedly, Homura must have killed in order to sustain her groundhog day without turning into a witch herself

Not identical ones, the same ones over and over again. It's also very likely that there's a lot more witches than magical girls out there, so it's not that hard to see how familiars can keep growing into witches.

chaosof99

I didn't mean that Homura killed different witches, but I used Homura as an example of a magical girl capable of killing hundreds of thousands of witches before turning into a witch herself. Thus I inferred from the fact that there are magical girls that must also be capable of doing this in a regular timeline (though perhaps the actual age of Homura is also much longer than the normal human age, if all repetitions are accounted for). So the question is, how come there are so many witches when one magical girl can kill so many of them.

Sure familiars also growing into witches would explain this, but even familiars are being hunted down on occasion without becoming witches, and even witches generated from familiars would probably not sustain the number of witches that are being destroyed by magical girls. If the witches are simply sealed into grief seeds and capable of "hatching" again, it would be a far more powerful explanation if Kyubey was planting them again. It would also explain why they call grief seeds the "eggs" of witches, and why Sayaka, Madoka and Mami came across a grief seed at the hospital. As we can see when Sayaka turns, witches are active immediately after they turned. Someone must have defeated the witch (the one that ate Mami) before to seal her into the grief seed. But why then is the grief seed just somewhere in the landscape?

Not nine

there's a lot more witches than magical girls out there

Read, comprehend, post.

lackofcheese

But why then is the grief seed just somewhere in the landscape?

Perhaps familiars turn into grief seeds before becoming active witches?

In any case, I think the typical magical girl does not kill hundreds of thousands of witches. Homura is quite obviously a singular exception, and even then, in any one timeline, I doubt she kills more than a thousand or so. Hell, it might even be the case that the average magical girl fails to kill even one witch. If Rym is right and Sayaka is an example of a typical magical girl, then the batting average of the typical magical girl is rather low indeed.

As for Kyubey's methods, presumably Kyubey does whatever is in his power to maximise energy output, with the constraint of having some limited respect for human life - i.e. offering humans a voluntary choice rather than forcing them to be magical girls, and some other aspects.

Kyubey never straight-up lies, right? He just deceives by omitting important information, and he leads the girls into bad situations. Presumably not lying is also a rule Kyubey follows as part of his job, just like the whole "contract" arrangement - unless of course it's just that his race simply isn't capable of lies.

chaosof99

there's a lot more witches than magical girls out there

Read, comprehend, post.

Jesus H fucking Christ. How about you follow your own fucking advice, asswipe? I'm asking WHY there's so many witches out there when there shouldn't be because a) Not every magical girl becomes a witch and b) they are being predated upon by larger numbers than the show explains they come about. And this is not just a question as to how it is now, but as to hoow this whole cycle started. What did the first Magical girls fight and how did she turn into a witch? Who fought the witch that became her? How exactly is it that there became a lot more witches than there are magical girls?



@lackofcheese: I didn't say the typical Magical girl kills hundreds of thousands, but that there are magical girls that could do that. So the question is how many witches does a typical magical girl take out before turning into a witch herself. Even Sayaka kills more "potential" witches as she uses up most of her energy taking down familiars. We also see magical girls grow into adults, with the examples of Jeanne D'Arc and Cleopatra.

Apreche

I'm asking WHY there's so many witches out there when there shouldn't be because

We told you. A magical girl is just one magical girl. A witch can spawn more witches. They split off pieces of themselves which become more witches. Think about how many pieces of Walpurgis Night split off and become witches.

lackofcheese

Since Kyubey says important people become more powerful magical girls, Jeanne d'Arc and Cleopatra must have been very powerful magical girls, and hence it's no surprise they would've lived longer.

What did the first Magical girls fight and how did she turn into a witch?

That, I think, is simple enough. I'd guess that the first magical girls didn't fight anything at all, they just got free powers. Perhaps they didn't even get a wish to sweeten the deal, because it wasn't necessary.

Apreche

That, I think, is simple enough. I'd guess that the first magical girls didn't fight anything at all, they just got free powers. Perhaps they didn't even get a wish to sweeten the deal, because it wasn't necessary.

Yeah, the first magical girls got free wishes, and then just turned into witches because there were no grief seeds to acquire. Or maybe the first witches came from the outside.

lackofcheese

Perhaps the story went like this:
Kyubey: Hey, you seem really lonely over there. I've got this really cool power, I can grant you a free wish!
Girl: Hells yeah! My life sucks so hard, anything would be an improvement.
Girl becomes first magical girl.
Tribe: Hey, that girl is really weird; she must be a witch! Let's kill her.
Due to getting hunted by her own tribe, girl despairs -> transforms into an actual witch, kills her entire tribe
Kyubey: Hey, did you know all the people of that other tribe got killed by an evil witch? She might come and kill your tribe too. I can help with that.

Also, this probably means that quite a lot of witches were created by burning at the stake.

Ark

I really loved this series and have the Geeknights forums and first podcast to thank for recommending it.

However I got so caught up in the drama I wasn't really following the plot details.

What actually causes the magical girls to transform into witches?

How is Kyubey benefiting from this? I know it's something to do with energy collection but I didn't understand the specifics?

lackofcheese

What actually causes the magical girls to transform into witches?

Despair and/or running out of magic energy - the two are strongly interrelated.

How is Kyubey benefiting from this? I know it's something to do with energy collection but I didn't understand the specifics?

Apparently Kyubey can collect the energy released when a magical girl transforms into a witch.

Ark

So do they run out of magical energy when they fight witches without collecting more from the witches?

I got confused because they mentioned something about their gems getting corrupted

lackofcheese

So do they run out of magical energy when they fight witches without collecting more from the witches?

Pretty much.

It seems clear enough to me that Sayaka's soul gem was getting corrupted because of her emotional downward spiral, but I'm not sure how this works with the whole process of using a grief seed to purify it. Perhaps when you "purify" your soul gem, you're actually offloading your own grief into the grief seed?

I need to watch the series a second time to get a clear idea of what's going on there.

Apreche

It seems clear enough to me that Sayaka's soul gem was getting corrupted because of her emotional downward spiral, but I'm not sure how this works with the whole process of using a grief seed to purify it. Perhaps when you "purify" your soul gem, you're actually offloading your own grief into the grief seed?

You've got it backwards. Her emotional downward spiral was caused by her soul gem, which is actually herself, getting corrupted. Why did it get corrupted? Because she kept using her magical powers. The more power you use, the more corruption that builds up. You have to get rid of the corruption by offloading it to a grief seed so that you can refuel your magical girl power. If you run out of fuel, you become a witch.

Sayaka would waste her magical power fighting other magical girls and witch fragments that did not yield grief seeds. Because she didn't beat enough full witches and get enough real grief seeds, she was quickly spent.

Remember the one timeline where Madoka kills the Walpurgis Night in one shot. But then immediately after that she becomes the most evil witch. It's because she made a wish, had a full tank, and then spent all her power in one shot. By spending all her magical power, she immediately became a witch without any chance to offload into Walpurgi's Night's grief seed.

The same thing happens at the very end of the show. Madoka's grief seed is ginormous, but she uses all the magical power in it to defeat every witch ever. That's when she turns into that gigantic sun/moon-faced witch that grabs the entire earth. The only reason that witch gets defeated is because of the power of the wish she made, which defied entropy and the law of conservation of energy.

lackofcheese

It's important to note that Homura had one big trick up her sleeve in this regard - most of her fighting power didn't come from her soul gem, it came from her weaponry. Hence her actual magic was probably relatively cheap to use, and so she could take out witches more efficiently than anyone else.

You've got it backwards. Her emotional downward spiral was caused by her soul gem, which is actually herself, getting corrupted. Why did it get corrupted? Because she kept using her magical powers. The more power you use, the more corruption that builds up. You have to get rid of the corruption by offloading it to a grief seed so that you can refuel your magical girl power. If you run out of fuel, you become a witch.

I don't quite like that interpretation. I had a strong impression that the "corruption" wasn't just causing the negative emotions; it was those negative emotions. Hence the term "grief seed" - a soul gem which is now given over entirely to despair.

You don't need to spend magical power for that to happen, either; obviously a magical girl could enter a downward spiral without using magic at all. Presumably they would still become a witch as a direct result. It's also quite clear that in Sayaka's case, her refusal to collect energy from witches was far from the sole cause of her emotional trouble. What really broke her was the (rather stupid) thought that she wasn't human, and therefore couldn't be with other people, Kamijou in particular.

The series also clearly explained that the magic power - and the energy Kyubey collects - is actually drawn from human emotion.

Rym

The leitmotifs were well executed for such a short show.