I can say that they're not really "games," but they can still have value.
Well, they're not "game theory" games by definition. But that's pedantic. ;^)
The thing is, most of them don't meet any of the definitions I use for "good" games. Many involve no actual decisions or contextual failure (the player literally just clicks on everything with everything until the plot progresses). They're at best interactive linear stories, little more than Choose Your Own Adventure . Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what they are.
Let's not forget the best part of the Double Fine Adventure Kickstarter, the 2 Player Productions Documentary. I'm dubious of the involving-backers-in-the-development part, though.
2PP has yet to prove themselves to me with a real film yet. I liked the preview of the Minecraft doc, but Reformat The Planet was awful and what I saw of PA:TS was pretty whatever.
I just saw the PA:TS and they did their job well enough there. For what's it worth they probably did the job as well as most people would, as far as I can remember. Did you have any particular gripes with their stuff?
You guys are missing the point. This is a big deal not because of the game itself, but it shows that major development studios can fund niche games without the need for major publishers. Additionally, you can probably fund them for significantly less without the need for super expensive, and probably not very effective, marketing schemes such as "game dev interviews which are actually just commercials created by the publishers". I'd like to see this model expand more. I know places like Muse are already ahead of the curve, but wide scale adoption of this model could really work.
This is not news. For many years we have done nothing but yell and scream about undeserved fanbases that companies refused to monetize. Nintendo, Y U NO Earthbound? Firefly, Y U cancel? It is obvious that if you serve these rabid fanbases with what they've been asking for, they will open the wallets.
But, here is the problem. We look at this and say "oh mans, so much moneys! Hooray!" The reality is that this is chump change. Obviously compared to the 1% it's chump change. And obviously for you or me to get this kind of cash in a one-time shot, it's a life changing amount. But in the grand scheme, the numbers just aren't there.
Take Order of the Stick Kickstarter for example. Half a million dollars. Oh shit son! That's like winning a lottery. Rich Burlew is going t be set for a long time. But a fuckton of that money goes to Kickstarter themselves. Then a big chunk has to be used to to print and ship the books. He'll probably end up with at least six figures left over, which is enough to live for a few years. I doubt he can replicate this every few years.
Compare that to another web-comic, Penny Arcade. No Kickstarter for them. Just selling things as normal. How much moneys do they make? Multiple employees there make at least six, if not seven, figures annually, and have done so for years. Robert Khoo said that PAX cost 8 figures. They do two PAXes a year. That, my friends, is real moneys.
How about Double Fine Adventure. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt they get to a million dollars after Kickstarter's cut. How many employees do they have? Let's say ten employees. After benefits, taxes, rent of the office, equipment costs, etc. What will be the annual salaries of those employees? Not much!
Kickstarter can do exactly what the name implies. It can kickstart. If you have a project that you want to get off the ground, you can get enough cash to get it off the ground. But after the Kickstarter, that project needs to make cash on its own. After Double Fine finishes that game, they need to sell a lot of copies on Steam, iOS, Android, XBLA, etc. in order to actually get enough money to make things happen.
You also can't live on Kickstarter. You can use it for your first project, but you can't reuse it every single time. It just won't happen. You can use it for your first project, but then you need that first project to not only pay for itself, and your people, but to pay for the second project. If you keep trying to hit the Kickstarter well every time, then you are failing.
The big companies with tons of cash, like Apple or Nintendo, can definitely do these projects. They could fund all these small, guaranteed profit, projects that hit the niche audience. The problem is that it just isn't worth it. Even though they will make money, they will only make tiny money. They would need to do so many tiny projects at once to make the money they need. Instead, they just put all the money and staff into one big project that will make many many times more money than all the small projects combined.
Fuck, I laughed at this earlier, but I just saw some kid from my school post the most ill-conceived Kickstarter to get the boring[if his previous efforts are any indication] music from his lazy[only a 6 song EP instead of a full album] senior recording project get pressed on vinyl via the support of his cash-strapped classmates and I raged.
Fuck, I laughed at this earlier, but I just saw some kid from my school post the most ill-conceived Kickstarter to get the boring[if his previous efforts are any indication] music from his lazy[only a 6 song EP instead of a full album] senior recording project get pressed on vinyl via the support of his cash-strapped classmates and I raged.
Fun fact: That girl who claimed she was down for a date and then avoided me relentlessly instead of just being like "Sorry, this won't work," sent me a Facebook message (presumably, she messaged all her friends) to get her band's first album recorded. The $75 reward level was "T-shirt + Digital download + Physical Copy + Name in liner notes PLUS: Choose any of these fun gifts from select band members....4) [Girl]: A bike ride through Urbana; lunch or dinner cooked for you! May or may not include kombucha, raw milk, local meat, and dark chocolate; followed by a heart-to-heart on her porch." Oh, and then $25 level included kissing one of the band members, so presumably that was included as well.
I seriously considered it just to have the most awkward night ever as stand-up comedy fodder, and then dismissed said notion, since I would likely get a lot of friends very mad at me.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I had concluded that a bullet had been dodged ages ago (for a multitude of reasons which I don't need to get into); the thought of her was only conjured back up by her shameless whoring of her Kickstarter project.
The kombucha is pretty questionable, too; throwing a bunch of champagne yeast into a glass jar of sweet tea and then haphazardly adding sucrose periodically sounds a bunch of alarm klaxons in my brain. I doubt hipster kombucha makers practice aseptic technique.
From what I've read, and from the creators I've talked to that have used Kickstarter, the website takes 5% of the money raised, which is a pretty small amount.
The real cut from the creator's perspective is somewhere around 10% once you factor in the payment processing fee that Amazon gets. Still, a very effective way at generating pre-orders and early direct sales.
If you guys want really smart commentary on Kickstarter, check out The Game Whisperer. It's a blog started on the side by a professional business analyst to look at how Kickstarter is changing the board game industry. He does a fantastic job at running all sorts of data and framing it into useful statistics.
This thread reminds me that I need to write up a proper review for a card based fleet combat game that I just played over the weekend. It was quite fun, but there are some things that do not make sense.
I went on a Kickstarter spree today, funding things that sound interesting. I dug around the board games, video games, food and technology areas and found these:
I'm probably going to be doing a Kickstarter soon for an iOS game I'm making, and so I was wondering what sorts of rewards people would like to see?
I'm currently thinking of having as rewards: desktop wallpapers (for you computer or phone,) stickers (a set of two or three,) t-shirts (at least one, maybe two, which will be exclusive to backers,) and of course a copy of the game (which will probably be the $1 reward since it'll be $1 on the app store.)
Some sort of minor creative input tends to sell really well. "Name a character/thing in our game!" "Talk to the creators as the game is being developed", etc.
I'm probably going to be doing a Kickstarter soon for an iOS game I'm making, and so I was wondering what sorts of rewards people would like to see?
I'm currently thinking of having as rewards: desktop wallpapers (for you computer or phone,) stickers (a set of two or three,) t-shirts (at least one, maybe two, which will be exclusive to backers,) and of course a copy of the game (which will probably be the $1 reward since it'll be $1 on the app store.)
With almost every Kickstarter all I want is the product itself. The extra stuff is usually just extra crap I have no interest in. Just like I don't want extras on DVDs 99% of the time. Just like when an anime boxed set comes with some hologram shit you look at it once and then throw it out because in the end it's a useless piece of cardboard.
Even if you give stuff that could theoretically be useful, let's say a keychain. Ok, that's nice, but seriously. If I only have one keychain it's going to be for something I really really like. Not for some kickstarter game.
That's part of the reason I think OOtS did so well on Kickstarter. Sure he had extras in there like magnets and such, but his big boost was that he had more than one real product. He's got seven different volumes of actual books to sell. By combining those into different combinations he was able to create so many different levels, and each level got you something real, another book. To get all seven books was a very high level. Or look at our friends with B9 kingdom. Four volumes, PDF and physical. That gets you a lot of different levels of products to offer.
If I did a Kickstarter for an iOS game I would actually make multiple games, or a game with expansions. Not crap micro-transaction DLC, actual expansions. Then I would just make the rewards be get one, get two, get three, get all. then above that all the rewards would be get all + I bake for you in your house kind of stuff.
I am 100% with Scott on this. I just want the main product.
We support your Kickstarter project because think you deserve money to create something. When I see people offering up all sorts of stickers, shirts, and other random junk, I question whether the work to provide all of that is actually A) increasing the number of backers substantially or being offered at a price that will turn a profit for the project creator.
I just don't want to see someone piss away all of their profit by stacking up this mountain of rewards they owe people. (letting poor business planning ruin their creative potential)
I honestly don't know the guy's finances but I felt this way with Jared Sorensen's Z-Ward project. He crushed his goal and just kept piling on new rewards. Maybe that kept the fire burning, and new pledges coming in, but maybe that money would have come to him anyway simply because he was making an awesome core product. Who knows? All I know is its worth some analysis.
The Game Whisperer does some great statistical analysis on Kickstarter projects, and this whole "what rewards should I offer" debate is a very hot topic right now. If he hasn't already, I would expect him to extract some excellent data on what works and what doesn't.
I understand what you are both saying, I certainly understand that use case (pledge case?) But with the game I'm making I plan to sell it for $1 on the app store, and I plan for the $1 pledge on Kickstarter to give you a copy of the game.
Now if I want to reach a goal of say $3,000 or $4,000 I'll need 3000 or 4000 backers at that $1 pledge level, which is a lot for a Kickstarter project. For example Benign Kingdom has 875 backers at the moment, Indie Game the movie had 1,596, Guns of Icarus Online had 1,211. And these are all projects that greatly exceeded their original goal amount.
So the thing is that in this sort of situation I need people to pledge more than just $1, and in order to do that I offer rewards for larger amounts, because even if it costs me $10 to get the reward made, if they are pledging $20 or $30 to get it than they are worth 10 to 20 times more than someone who only pledged a dollar.
Basically I'm in a little bit of a tricky place with my game since I can't expect to make my goal amount by just offering up the game alone, and so I need to offer other things to help reach that goal. However I will probably do some secondary goals, for example if there are an additional $1000 in pledges over the goal amount adding additional content to the game, or making the first set or two of DLC free.
Comments
The thing is, most of them don't meet any of the definitions I use for "good" games. Many involve no actual decisions or contextual failure (the player literally just clicks on everything with everything until the plot progresses). They're at best interactive linear stories, little more than Choose Your Own Adventure . Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what they are.
But, here is the problem. We look at this and say "oh mans, so much moneys! Hooray!" The reality is that this is chump change. Obviously compared to the 1% it's chump change. And obviously for you or me to get this kind of cash in a one-time shot, it's a life changing amount. But in the grand scheme, the numbers just aren't there.
Take Order of the Stick Kickstarter for example. Half a million dollars. Oh shit son! That's like winning a lottery. Rich Burlew is going t be set for a long time. But a fuckton of that money goes to Kickstarter themselves. Then a big chunk has to be used to to print and ship the books. He'll probably end up with at least six figures left over, which is enough to live for a few years. I doubt he can replicate this every few years.
Compare that to another web-comic, Penny Arcade. No Kickstarter for them. Just selling things as normal. How much moneys do they make? Multiple employees there make at least six, if not seven, figures annually, and have done so for years. Robert Khoo said that PAX cost 8 figures. They do two PAXes a year. That, my friends, is real moneys.
How about Double Fine Adventure. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt they get to a million dollars after Kickstarter's cut. How many employees do they have? Let's say ten employees. After benefits, taxes, rent of the office, equipment costs, etc. What will be the annual salaries of those employees? Not much!
Kickstarter can do exactly what the name implies. It can kickstart. If you have a project that you want to get off the ground, you can get enough cash to get it off the ground. But after the Kickstarter, that project needs to make cash on its own. After Double Fine finishes that game, they need to sell a lot of copies on Steam, iOS, Android, XBLA, etc. in order to actually get enough money to make things happen.
You also can't live on Kickstarter. You can use it for your first project, but you can't reuse it every single time. It just won't happen. You can use it for your first project, but then you need that first project to not only pay for itself, and your people, but to pay for the second project. If you keep trying to hit the Kickstarter well every time, then you are failing.
The big companies with tons of cash, like Apple or Nintendo, can definitely do these projects. They could fund all these small, guaranteed profit, projects that hit the niche audience. The problem is that it just isn't worth it. Even though they will make money, they will only make tiny money. They would need to do so many tiny projects at once to make the money they need. Instead, they just put all the money and staff into one big project that will make many many times more money than all the small projects combined.
I seriously considered it just to have the most awkward night ever as stand-up comedy fodder, and then dismissed said notion, since I would likely get a lot of friends very mad at me.
Gotta be careful with those Kickstarter gifts!
The kombucha is pretty questionable, too; throwing a bunch of champagne yeast into a glass jar of sweet tea and then haphazardly adding sucrose periodically sounds a bunch of alarm klaxons in my brain. I doubt hipster kombucha makers practice aseptic technique.
If you guys want really smart commentary on Kickstarter, check out The Game Whisperer. It's a blog started on the side by a professional business analyst to look at how Kickstarter is changing the board game industry. He does a fantastic job at running all sorts of data and framing it into useful statistics.
Kickstarter for iPhone dock hits over $1 million.. That's crazy. The product looks pretty nice, but it's something I wouldn't use. Good for that guy.
Agents of Smersh
Gunship: First Strike
Code Hero
Yay!
One of these days, somebody is going to take the money and fail to create what they promise. And the pitchforks will come out.
I'm currently thinking of having as rewards: desktop wallpapers (for you computer or phone,) stickers (a set of two or three,) t-shirts (at least one, maybe two, which will be exclusive to backers,) and of course a copy of the game (which will probably be the $1 reward since it'll be $1 on the app store.)
Even if you give stuff that could theoretically be useful, let's say a keychain. Ok, that's nice, but seriously. If I only have one keychain it's going to be for something I really really like. Not for some kickstarter game.
That's part of the reason I think OOtS did so well on Kickstarter. Sure he had extras in there like magnets and such, but his big boost was that he had more than one real product. He's got seven different volumes of actual books to sell. By combining those into different combinations he was able to create so many different levels, and each level got you something real, another book. To get all seven books was a very high level. Or look at our friends with B9 kingdom. Four volumes, PDF and physical. That gets you a lot of different levels of products to offer.
If I did a Kickstarter for an iOS game I would actually make multiple games, or a game with expansions. Not crap micro-transaction DLC, actual expansions. Then I would just make the rewards be get one, get two, get three, get all. then above that all the rewards would be get all + I bake for you in your house kind of stuff.
We support your Kickstarter project because think you deserve money to create something. When I see people offering up all sorts of stickers, shirts, and other random junk, I question whether the work to provide all of that is actually A) increasing the number of backers substantially or
I just don't want to see someone piss away all of their profit by stacking up this mountain of rewards they owe people. (letting poor business planning ruin their creative potential)
I honestly don't know the guy's finances but I felt this way with Jared Sorensen's Z-Ward project. He crushed his goal and just kept piling on new rewards. Maybe that kept the fire burning, and new pledges coming in, but maybe that money would have come to him anyway simply because he was making an awesome core product. Who knows? All I know is its worth some analysis.
The Game Whisperer does some great statistical analysis on Kickstarter projects, and this whole "what rewards should I offer" debate is a very hot topic right now. If he hasn't already, I would expect him to extract some excellent data on what works and what doesn't.
Now if I want to reach a goal of say $3,000 or $4,000 I'll need 3000 or 4000 backers at that $1 pledge level, which is a lot for a Kickstarter project. For example Benign Kingdom has 875 backers at the moment, Indie Game the movie had 1,596, Guns of Icarus Online had 1,211. And these are all projects that greatly exceeded their original goal amount.
So the thing is that in this sort of situation I need people to pledge more than just $1, and in order to do that I offer rewards for larger amounts, because even if it costs me $10 to get the reward made, if they are pledging $20 or $30 to get it than they are worth 10 to 20 times more than someone who only pledged a dollar.
Basically I'm in a little bit of a tricky place with my game since I can't expect to make my goal amount by just offering up the game alone, and so I need to offer other things to help reach that goal. However I will probably do some secondary goals, for example if there are an additional $1000 in pledges over the goal amount adding additional content to the game, or making the first set or two of DLC free.