Awesome. I don't think anyone wants to hear my bootstrapping story because it is basically "I started in a middle class family, dad was a techie at a big company. I now am in my own middle class family, where I'm a techie at a big company." Not a whole lot of mobility upwards, although my dad has recently had a lot of mobility downwards.
As a side-note, Rym specifically, my dad made it into an Executive level position with a small company that he held for around 5 years. When the company recently crashed and burned, he was laid off. He's having a huge amount of trouble finding a new job now, due mostly to the specific skill set he had to cultivate to be a successful Executive rather than someone who actually does the making. It's worth noting from his problems that you should continue cultivating the creation skills.
"Worthless and weak" is a movie line from Animal House. It is not weak to ask for help. I think you and I are very close on a lot of points, but my language offends you. You're punishing me still for using the "started with nothing" comment. How about the following instead:
--born to unwed mother. --did the best he could. --no money for college. --worked full time went to school full time. --became lawyer and worked hard (not the top of his class either). --6 years of plugging away and some side interests led to an opportunity. --took advantage of opportunity and worked harder. --after 20 years of being lawyer, doing what he would consider to be reasonably well.
That's about as simple as I can make it. Did I have help. Of course! We are here on this planet with each other. It is both heaven and hell. Do you need others for success, yes. Does that somehow justify government safety nets? No.
See, that list is way more reasonable than "I had nothing." Yes, the language offends me because it's inflammatory and untrue, but it also fails to make your point. Now that you've actually broken out your circumstances some, you've humanized your position.
I'm a big fan of storytelling as a way to convey a point. It puts things into an accessible context, rather than keeping them up in the realm of high-minded idealism.
Where we disagree is on the necessity of others for help justifying government safety nets. You and I, we both got lucky in our stories. We both tapped the resources around us and made opportunities. We also had some bad luck - I don't know about your bad luck in particular, but losing my father (who was my personal hero) at age 22 was fucking devastating. That was just a matter of chance, pure and simple.
But not everybody is as lucky. Chance is a fickle thing. My friend Shana was killed by a drunk driver when she was 17. The girl had a promising future and a supportive family, and someone else's decision - one over which she had no control - ended her life.
Life is occasionally unfair. Safety nets exist as an attempt to mitigate unfair, arbitrary bullshit, because we're humans and we can actually do that. Sure, they sometimes lend themselves to abuse, but that's unavoidable for any social animal. There will be leeches and hangers-on; that doesn't mean that the net is useless and serves no purpose.
This is how we differ. I'm willing to give of myself to give other people a chance at security, and a small buffer against the incredibly unfair and capricious nature of reality. I understand the necessity of that, and I'm willing to have it be part of a larger institution. Human civilization has progressed away from isolated economic hubs into larger constructs, because we can accomplish grand things with pooled resources. With large pools of separate resources, we can accomplish one person's vision - until that vision conflicts with someone else's. There's a reason we stopped supporting kings.
If we can shape the world around us, why not shape it into one where everyone can get ahead?
If we can shape the world around us, why not shape it into one where everyone can get ahead?
Think of it as an actual trapeze without an actual safety net. Only the ballsiest daredevils are going up there. The rest of us are staying on the ground where it's safe.
What happens if they install a net? A whole bunch of us are going to start going up there to try it out. We'll fall, but we'll try again and again. We might actually get good at acrobatics! Suddenly the top isn't so lonely anymore. They were the man keeping is down, but now only the most timid people are kept down. Most people are still down, but they aren't kept down.
To make matters worse for the original daredevils, imagine the kinds of things we will discover when we get up there. Oh, all you guys are corrupt and evil as fuck! It's just that only corrupt and evil people were ever able to get up here in the first place. Now that us normal folk are up here we see what's going on. Yeah, we're just going to push you off now. Happy landings!
Or, instead, a bunch of people try getting to the top and say, "Holy shit this is hard." I'm not one to say that all the richest people are corrupt assholes. They exist, but I doubt it's everyone.
The point is that the safety net allows a greater range of people with different levels of risk aversion to try things out. What we learn as a result of that, who knows.
Or, instead, a bunch of people try getting to the top and say, "Holy shit this is hard." I'm not one to say that all the richest people are corrupt assholes. They exist, but I doubt it's everyone.
The point is that the safety net allows a greater range of people with different levels of risk aversion to try things out. What we learn as a result of that, who knows.
It also means that nobody has to die just because they wanted to try out the trapeze. If we are capable of mitigating such unbalanced consequences, then we are morally obligated to do so.
Wrong Scott, your need is not a claim on my ability. You of all people making these crazy generalizations and moral imperatives! What about the people who don't like the way you live? They can pound salt, right? You may not be in the 1% yet, but if need can be a claim on ability, you'd better put down the comic book and get your ass down to the homeless shelter to help out pronto.
Wrong Scott, your need is not a claim on my ability. You of all people making these crazy generalizations and moral imperatives! What about the people who don't like the way you live? They can pound salt, right? You may not be in the 1% yet, but if need can be a claim on ability, you'd better put down the comic book and get your ass down to the homeless shelter to help out pronto.
See the old thread where we discussed the scenario of the person dying in the street.
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As a side-note, Rym specifically, my dad made it into an Executive level position with a small company that he held for around 5 years. When the company recently crashed and burned, he was laid off. He's having a huge amount of trouble finding a new job now, due mostly to the specific skill set he had to cultivate to be a successful Executive rather than someone who actually does the making. It's worth noting from his problems that you should continue cultivating the creation skills.
I'm a big fan of storytelling as a way to convey a point. It puts things into an accessible context, rather than keeping them up in the realm of high-minded idealism.
Where we disagree is on the necessity of others for help justifying government safety nets. You and I, we both got lucky in our stories. We both tapped the resources around us and made opportunities. We also had some bad luck - I don't know about your bad luck in particular, but losing my father (who was my personal hero) at age 22 was fucking devastating. That was just a matter of chance, pure and simple.
But not everybody is as lucky. Chance is a fickle thing. My friend Shana was killed by a drunk driver when she was 17. The girl had a promising future and a supportive family, and someone else's decision - one over which she had no control - ended her life.
Life is occasionally unfair. Safety nets exist as an attempt to mitigate unfair, arbitrary bullshit, because we're humans and we can actually do that. Sure, they sometimes lend themselves to abuse, but that's unavoidable for any social animal. There will be leeches and hangers-on; that doesn't mean that the net is useless and serves no purpose.
This is how we differ. I'm willing to give of myself to give other people a chance at security, and a small buffer against the incredibly unfair and capricious nature of reality. I understand the necessity of that, and I'm willing to have it be part of a larger institution. Human civilization has progressed away from isolated economic hubs into larger constructs, because we can accomplish grand things with pooled resources. With large pools of separate resources, we can accomplish one person's vision - until that vision conflicts with someone else's. There's a reason we stopped supporting kings.
If we can shape the world around us, why not shape it into one where everyone can get ahead?
What happens if they install a net? A whole bunch of us are going to start going up there to try it out. We'll fall, but we'll try again and again. We might actually get good at acrobatics! Suddenly the top isn't so lonely anymore. They were the man keeping is down, but now only the most timid people are kept down. Most people are still down, but they aren't kept down.
To make matters worse for the original daredevils, imagine the kinds of things we will discover when we get up there. Oh, all you guys are corrupt and evil as fuck! It's just that only corrupt and evil people were ever able to get up here in the first place. Now that us normal folk are up here we see what's going on. Yeah, we're just going to push you off now. Happy landings!
The point is that the safety net allows a greater range of people with different levels of risk aversion to try things out. What we learn as a result of that, who knows.