Cremlian you are assuming that a government program to create a safety net would help 100 million people. I am assuming that instead it would result in 100 million people living off of it like the dole and generating more people who would also live off of it. The funny thing here is that deep down you and I probably want the same thing: to help people. I believe that you help people through voluntary acts that you, in turn, believe in. Motivation begets motivation. While I will stipulate that Frank Herbert is right and that fear is the mind killer, it is the last bastion of motivation. Complacent people do not strive.
Thaed, you are applying an argument against communism and applying it to something that is so far away from communism it isn't even funny.
Yes, in USSR style capitalism you get people living off of it and not working. Why? Because everyone gets the same no matter what. Everything is distributed perfectly evenly. Everyone gets the same exact amount of bread, the same house, the same car, the same everything. No matter how hard you work or how much you work, you all get the same. Of course people are going to live off it and be lazy bums. There's no reward for trying harder!
What we are talking about is a baseline. If someone wants to, they can live off of it. They'll live in a tiny room with a roof and a shared bathroom. They can eat really crappy food that provides a minimum of nutrition. They'll have a free school and a free hospital. That's it. They won't have any luxuries whatsoever. It will be very uncomfortable. If someone wants to live like that for free and never work, more power to them. They won't even have television. They can go to the library for entertainment, that's about it. I don't imagine many people will waste their lives away in that condition without trying to move up. Most people are going to try to escape. And because they know no matter how bad it gets, they can always start again, they'll be unafraid to try since they have nothing to lose.
Think of it like a game of Monopoly. You have to start with something! If you don't start with some cash, you can't even play. It's literally impossible. Likewise, if you have a huge pile of money, it's next to impossible to lose any large portion of it no matter how long you play. Nobody wants to take all the money and evenly divide it on every turn. We just want people to be able to steal $200 from the bank if they get down to 0. Because real life isn't a game. It's life or death, for most of us anyway. And also nobody gets $200 just for passing Go. Maybe they should.
It is life or death and it is also a game. I think what you're describing is a Kibbutz. That's fine. Set one up, go for it. Just don't ask me to pay for it.
It is life or death and it is also a game. I think what you're describing is a Kibbutz. That's fine. Set one up, go for it. Just don't ask me to pay for it.
It's not a Kibbutz at all. You're pretty smart. Why can't you see that this is different? You be trollin' on purpose?
LOL. It's totally the same! Why can't you see that you're barking up the wrong tree? You be silly on purpose?
I've been to multiple actual kibbutzes (kibbutzim?). Basically a kibbutz is a communism within a capitalism. A bunch of people start a business that engages in capitalism. However, they also live on the kibbutz and all share it equally. Like a company where every employee lives at the office and has equal shares. Everyone does equal work. If you don't work on the kibbutz, they kick your ass out! Voted off the island. Working harder on the kibbutz doesn't move you up or down. There is no up or down.
That's not at all what we are talking about as a social safety net. We are talking about a society where there is a minimum and no maximum. You can not equate this with communism or a kibbutz where everyone is on exactly the same level no matter what. We're not even talking about a very high minimum. We're talking about minimum of human dignity. A box to live in, water, shitty food, a school, and a doctor. Those are things every human has a right to, and we as a society have the ability to give to everyone.
Think of it like the old god omnipotence paradox. If he's actually omnipotent, and he allows the evil to happen, then he's a jerk, right? We many not be omnipotent, but we definitely have the ability to provide that bare minimum to everyone. If you don't, then you're as malevolent as the omnipotent god who merely watches.
Ok, time for another secret. We are heading toward the world you imagine (or total destruction if you talk to Joe, but that's another story). There is a technological critical mass where the basic elements of human survival will be so trivial to produce, they will almost be free. Then we can talk about your safety nets because they won't cause problems like those in Greece!
By the way, even when we get there, we will still have the poor. There won't be any starvation worries, but we will still consider people poor because they don't have something that other people have.
Ok, time for another secret. We are heading toward the world you imagine (or total destruction if you talk to Joe, but that's another story). There is a technological critical mass where the basic elements of human survival will be so trivial to produce, they will almost be free. Then we can talk about your safety nets because they won't cause problems like those in Greece!
By the way, even when we get there, we will still have the poor. There won't be any starvation worries, but we will still consider people poor because they don't have something that other people have.
I don't care if people are poor. Poor is fine. Poor can't complain. The people who are complaining now are people who are being denied their inalienable human right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Even though we don't have replicators just yet, we do have the resources to provide those things now. We have more than enough food and shelter for everybody. But instead we are letting food rot in the fields, and banks are kicking people out of their homes to leave them empty. People should get a bare minimum no matter what. When I say bare, I mean bare. If people are poor, that's fine. I don't care if everyone is poor and only one person has all the rest of the money. I only care when people are allowed to fall below the line of what every human being deserves.
Ok, time for another secret. We are heading toward the world you imagine (or total destruction if you talk to Joe, but that's another story). There is a technological critical mass where the basic elements of human survival will be so trivial to produce, they will almost be free. Then we can talk about your safety nets because they won't cause problems like those in Greece!
By the way, even when we get there, we will still have the poor. There won't be any starvation worries, but we will still consider people poor because they don't have something that other people have.
There won't be any starvation worries, but we will still consider people poor because they don't have something that other people have.
Well, that's why we need to set collective metrics for success, and make sure they're reasonable. Right now, I'll take "nobody starves to death" as pretty fucking amazing. We can worry about greater success from there.
Once everyone has enough bread, we can start worrying about the circuses, and the type of bread. Let's just make sure there's bread.
Comments
Yes, in USSR style capitalism you get people living off of it and not working. Why? Because everyone gets the same no matter what. Everything is distributed perfectly evenly. Everyone gets the same exact amount of bread, the same house, the same car, the same everything. No matter how hard you work or how much you work, you all get the same. Of course people are going to live off it and be lazy bums. There's no reward for trying harder!
What we are talking about is a baseline. If someone wants to, they can live off of it. They'll live in a tiny room with a roof and a shared bathroom. They can eat really crappy food that provides a minimum of nutrition. They'll have a free school and a free hospital. That's it. They won't have any luxuries whatsoever. It will be very uncomfortable. If someone wants to live like that for free and never work, more power to them. They won't even have television. They can go to the library for entertainment, that's about it. I don't imagine many people will waste their lives away in that condition without trying to move up. Most people are going to try to escape. And because they know no matter how bad it gets, they can always start again, they'll be unafraid to try since they have nothing to lose.
Think of it like a game of Monopoly. You have to start with something! If you don't start with some cash, you can't even play. It's literally impossible. Likewise, if you have a huge pile of money, it's next to impossible to lose any large portion of it no matter how long you play. Nobody wants to take all the money and evenly divide it on every turn. We just want people to be able to steal $200 from the bank if they get down to 0. Because real life isn't a game. It's life or death, for most of us anyway. And also nobody gets $200 just for passing Go. Maybe they should.
That's not at all what we are talking about as a social safety net. We are talking about a society where there is a minimum and no maximum. You can not equate this with communism or a kibbutz where everyone is on exactly the same level no matter what. We're not even talking about a very high minimum. We're talking about minimum of human dignity. A box to live in, water, shitty food, a school, and a doctor. Those are things every human has a right to, and we as a society have the ability to give to everyone.
Think of it like the old god omnipotence paradox. If he's actually omnipotent, and he allows the evil to happen, then he's a jerk, right? We many not be omnipotent, but we definitely have the ability to provide that bare minimum to everyone. If you don't, then you're as malevolent as the omnipotent god who merely watches.
By the way, even when we get there, we will still have the poor. There won't be any starvation worries, but we will still consider people poor because they don't have something that other people have.
Once everyone has enough bread, we can start worrying about the circuses, and the type of bread. Let's just make sure there's bread.