Trick taking card games

Dromaro

I searched around and I didn't see anything talking about this. I was just curious what everyone thinks about trick taking card games? I've been playing them in various forms my whole life and I love them! I recently learned that a friend of mine is designing a new TTCG and we will probably be looking for playtesters in the coming months. :-p

Linkigi(Link-ee-jee)

I only really know Euchre, but it's arguably my favorite card game.

Or are we not talking about ones with traditional playing cards?

Dromaro

Oh, I totally had those in mind. I had a long conversation with my buddy about how (at least in our area) there is shockingly little overlap between TTCG and Euro game players.

I happen to love games in all forms so I don't look down on any game form.

Nuri

I love Rook and Spades. I do find that my snooty board game friends tend to scorn the trick-taking card games. Maybe they're not complex enough for them.

Apreche

I like Hearts. I'm simultaneoulsy dubious and curious of bridge. Played Tichu once, didn't see how it was any good. All the others I've played suck.

Dromaro

@Nuri - I have not played Rook. I've heard of it but always seemed to get "Meh" from most people. Perhaps I'll once over the rules.

@LookYeMightyUponMyUnimpressedness - Hearts is great. It's the first TTCG I was super into. Bridge is GREAT! The bidding systems allow for so much subtle communication. That's really a whole other layer that makes Bridge as awesome as it is. There is a weekly meetup dedicated to Tichu in my area. It's very solid. With 4 different cards added, it's so much more than Hearts.

Apreche

The reason I am dubious of bridge is because of that communication mechanism. I don't know or understand the complete rules, which is why I'm dubious and not sure. But it is my understanding that you are not allowed to talk to or communicate with your partner. You can only communicate by bidding. Is that correct?

If so, that is a bullshit rule and the game can be broken. Rym and I could easily devise a communication system between ourselves that would be undetected by other players, and give us a huge advantage. It could involve blinking eyes, finger movements, etc. Same bullshit as euchre. The game is no longer about the strategy of the game itself, but about who can develop a more devious secret communication system. You might as well throw away the card game and play the secret message passing game.

Then again, I heard that at bridge tournaments they do some sort of thing where there are multiple tables and people are always changing seats. Not sure exactly how it works, but it is possible for it to work in such a fashion that there is an individual winner at the end, but you are always partnered with someone new. You would need some sort of ridiculous mass conspiracy to win that.

Nuri

@Nuri - I have not played Rook. I've heard of it but always seemed to get "Meh" from most people. Perhaps I'll once over the rules.

A large part of the reason I like these two games is that my family plays them pretty hardcore. It's not as fun with other people. So I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Andrew

My family is really in Pinochle. It's great for a family of four to play with teams and it's quite enjoyable to play on the beach during a vacation.

Dr. Timo

I once knew how to play Skat. It is quite difficult and intensely fun. The most remarkable mechanic is that the three players begin each round with bidding for the privilege to play 1 on 2.

The bidding itself is highly structured and complicated and based on the cards the players have been dealt.

Andrew

Anyone have a favorite deck of cards they like to use? I assume pretty much everyone uses Bicycle...

Ruffas

I mostly play with a euro deck so I can excuse the expense for playing Cripple Mr. Onion.

Apreche

Anyone have a favorite deck of cards they like to use? I assume pretty much everyone uses Bicycle...

There has been some discussion on this forum about playing card brands. This was the link that resulted.

http://www.theory11.com/playingcards/

I use standard Bicycle because that's what I have. They're great quality, and you can get them anywhere. I've also used Tally-Ho a lot, because my grandparents had them. I've considered getting the sentinels, but I would have to be playing a lot more cards games before I bothered with them.

Anthony Heman

My grandmother used to play poker and rummy with me on a regular basis when I was at her house.

Dr. Timo

Bicycle may be nice but they are no KEM. A deck of Bicycle equivalent cards would last our poker circle two sittings at most but we've been playing with the same deck of KEMs for three years now and still no sign of wear or tear. $20 for two decks.

Dromaro

The reason I am dubious of bridge is because of that communication mechanism. I don't know or understand the complete rules, which is why I'm dubious and not sure. But it is my understanding that you are not allowed to talk to or communicate with your partner. You can only communicate by bidding. Is that correct?

If so, that is a bullshit rule and the game can be broken. Rym and I could easily devise a communication system between ourselves that would be undetected by other players, and give us a huge advantage. It could involve blinking eyes, finger movements, etc. Same bullshit as euchre. The game is no longer about the strategy of the game itself, but about who can develop a more devious secret communication system. You might as well throw away the card game and play the secret message passing game.

Then again, I heard that at bridge tournaments they do some sort of thing where there are multiple tables and people are always changing seats. Not sure exactly how it works, but it is possible for it to work in such a fashion that there is an individual winner at the end, but you are always partnered with someone new. You would need some sort of ridiculous mass conspiracy to win that.

If you want to get down to the level of hand signals, eye movements and the like, I can't help you. Any communication outside of the bidding (during the bidding process) is verboten. Generally speaking the dummy hand is also silent during play as not to give any possible play leads to their partner. Of course, I'm presuming a tournament environment.

As far as the bidding systems, there are established conventions where certain bids mean certain things. In tournaments, I believe you are required to let your opposition know what convention you are using so they can have at least a vague notion of what you are "saying" to your partner with he successive bid. If you are essentially using a standard convention but with one minor tweak, you are allowed to say it's modified (American Standard V. Modified American Standard). If you invent your own system, you must provide a cheat sheet to at least show the opposition.

The seat changing you are referring to is likely a duplicate bridge tournament. Any tournament worth anything is going to be duplicate. The organizers, between every hand, will make sure that the hands are the same at every table. It, among other things, helps determine who played a hand more effectively. The whole partnership moves.

I'm very hazy on the specifics as I played socially at a local bridge club and had the rules explained to me about 15 years ago so please forgive me if I can't offer any further detail but I know I have the broad strokes down.

@Nuri - I have not played Rook. I've heard of it but always seemed to get "Meh" from most people. Perhaps I'll once over the rules.

A large part of the reason I like these two games is that my family plays them pretty hardcore. It's not as fun with other people. So I'd take it with a grain of salt.

That will do it. Anything is made better with that kind of a situation. =D

Anyone have a favorite deck of cards they like to use? I assume pretty much everyone uses Bicycle...

Bicycle, of course, unless the game itself calls for a different deck.

Apreche

If you want to get down to the level of hand signals, eye movements and the like, I can't help you. Any communication outside of the bidding (during the bidding process) is verboten. Generally speaking the dummy hand is also silent during play as not to give any possible play leads to their partner. Of course, I'm presuming a tournament environment.

The rule is unenforceable, and that breaks the entire game. If any two people cared enough they could create a signalling system that is undetectable. They could then become world champions of bridge assuming that the current champions aren't already cheating. It would be next to impossible to prove anyone was cheating if their methods were significantly advanced.

There are too many team games out there that become completely broke if teammates are allowed to communicate. There are only two ways I know to fix this problem.

One is to have games where teammates can communicate without breaking the game. For example, in any professional sport teammates are constantly communicating, and the game is not broken. In team RTS or FPS games it is expected that teammates will communicate.

Two is to physically prevent communication. The only way to fix a game like bridge or Shadows over Camelot is to put each player in an isolated chamber. The only information that can enter or leave the chamber is what is permitted by the rules. I'm actually kind of surprised that the highest levels of bridge play don't already do this. I am willing to bet that all the top players of bridge in the world have ridiculously advanced signalling systems that are impossible to detect. They've probably spent hundreds, or even thousands of hours practicing them.

Dromaro

If you want to get down to the level of hand signals, eye movements and the like, I can't help you. Any communication outside of the bidding (during the bidding process) is verboten. Generally speaking the dummy hand is also silent during play as not to give any possible play leads to their partner. Of course, I'm presuming a tournament environment.

The rule is unenforceable, and that breaks the entire game. If any two people cared enough they could create a signalling system that is undetectable. They could then become world champions of bridge assuming that the current champions aren't already cheating. It would be next to impossible to prove anyone was cheating if their methods were significantly advanced.

There are too many team games out there that become completely broke if teammates are allowed to communicate. There are only two ways I know to fix this problem.

One is to have games where teammates can communicate without breaking the game. For example, in any professional sport teammates are constantly communicating, and the game is not broken. In team RTS or FPS games it is expected that teammates will communicate.

Two is to physically prevent communication. The only way to fix a game like bridge or Shadows over Camelot is to put each player in an isolated chamber. The only information that can enter or leave the chamber is what is permitted by the rules. I'm actually kind of surprised that the highest levels of bridge play don't already do this. I am willing to bet that all the top players of bridge in the world have ridiculously advanced signalling systems that are impossible to detect. They've probably spent hundreds, or even thousands of hours practicing them.

All of this, I know. Sometimes people play imperfect games for fun. If nothing else, your complaints about Bridge will not apply to the game I'm helping playtest because, while it's a partnership game, there is no communication between them! Hand signal all you want, buddy!

Churba

There has been some discussion on this forum about playing card brands. This was the link that resulted.

I'm glad you remembered it after I linked it. Did you ever pick up those Propaganda cards? IIRC, I thought you were right into those.

Anyone have a favorite deck of cards they like to use? I assume pretty much everyone uses Bicycle...

Yeah, I prefer Bicycle. I have a few packs, they're long-lasting, shuffle really well, and are generally just very nice to handle and use. From memory, I've got two packs of black standards, a pack of Poker-peek, and a pack of sentinels which are still in the cellophane. I also have a few cheap(like, dollar per pack) decks for card-throwing(which I'm not that good at, but getting better).

Jack Draigo

At Collective Brands, Spades was a popular game on breaks. I never got particularly good at it though I had the jist of the whole thing.

Still prefer comparative card games like most casino games more than trick-taking games.

Apreche

There has been some discussion on this forum about playing card brands. This was the link that resulted.

I'm glad you remembered it after I linked it. Did you ever pick up those Propaganda cards? IIRC, I thought you were right into those.

If I ever start playing card games I'll definitely pick some up.