You don't like it, but it is a better test of skill. Better tests of skill are typically more stick than carrot. When you have too much carrot, it becomes a game of momentum.
Ok, so would Super Meat Boy be better game if every time you die you have to watch a game over screen? It should by your argument.
You don't like it, but it is a better test of skill. Better tests of skill are typically more stick than carrot. When you have too much carrot, it becomes a game of momentum.
Ok, so would Super Meat Boy be better game if every time you die you have to watch a game over screen? It should by your argument.
Just because a game mechanic is good in one specific instance doesn't mean it is some magical thing that is great in every game. Just because cinnamon is an awesome spice doesn't mean you should use it in every possible dish you cook.
Also, remember that people are usually poor judges of what they will like. The first time I heard about Counter-Strike I was told that when you die you don't respawn. You have to sit there and wait. What was my reaction? That's the dumbest game I ever heard! Who wants to sit around waiting to play most of the time? Turns out that seemingly awful punishment was a great revolution.
I think I have stated before how much I hate that element of Counter-Strikes gameplay, I obviously understand that Counter-Strike wouldn't be a same game without it, but it doesn't make me to like it and it's the biggest reason why I barely ever play Counter-Strike: Source. Every time I feel like playing it ten minutes of sitting and watching other people play reminds me how little I like that game.
Obviously lots of details need to be worked out in playtesting. We are without a doubt not even at the shit-talk stage here. Since this is just tossing around ideas and nobody has even said they have a plan to make any such game. The thing is, I really see potential in this kind of game. Small teams, overhead view, strategically attack and defend on a map where a war is going on. Lots of different characters and abilities to choose from. I can easily imagine an awesome game like that. If the developers would take more risks and really try out some new game mechanics, instead of just adding new heroes or whatever, I really think a great game could emerge. And as far as I'm concerned, if existing MOBA players hate that game, that is a sign the game is doing something right.
I have thought our discussions as just a theoretical game design discussion. Something that, while it might not result to anything concrete, is interesting in it's own right when we try to learn about each others views and opinions regarding the genre we are talking about.
Also, remember that people are usually poor judges of what they will like. The first time I heard about Counter-Strike I was told that when you die you don't respawn. You have to sit there and wait. What was my reaction? That's the dumbest game I ever heard! Who wants to sit around waiting to play most of the time? Turns out that seemingly awful punishment was a great revolution.
I think I have stated before how much I hate that element of Counter-Strikes gameplay, I obviously understand that Counter-Strike wouldn't be a same game without it, but it doesn't make me to like it and it's the biggest reason why I barely ever play Counter-Strike: Source. Every time I feel like playing it ten minutes of sitting and watching other people play reminds me how little I like that game.
And this is a fundamental problem I have pointed out many many times.
There are some people who enjoy truly fair directly competitive tests of skill, like I do. But when a game is such a fair test, then a player of low skill level is necessarily going to be hosed. They will not be able to access most of the parts of the game or score any points. That leaves a feeling of futility and frustration. Only someone with the will and determination to increase their skill level will move up. The vast majority of people will just quit.
When I first played CS I had the same feeling. I died almost instantly and spent a lot of time watching. Now I spend a lot less time watching because I don't die immediately, or at all. Also, rounds are a lot faster than they used to be. Also, when I'm watching I'm paying attention, learning, etc.
Now when I try to play RTS or MOBA I have those same feelings I had in the early days of CS. I try to play, and I just get hosed immediately. I got frustrated and quit, like you did with CS. But I didn't get frustrated just because I was getting hosed. I got frustrated when I discovered what I would have to do to move upwards.
Whenever I play any game, the only thing I think is "what do I have to do to win this game?"
With CS the answer was that I had to aim more precisely, shoot first, anticipate the enemy's route and actions, act in a way that won't be anticipated, and make clever use of the map. Those were things that are interesting and difficult to think about and execute on a consistent basis across so many varied scenarios and opponents.
With MOBA games I tried to find the answer, and the answers that came up were things like "click like crazy so you get the last hit." That's not an interesting test of skill at all. That's button-mash city. Yet, when I was still naive and didn't realize all the bullshit, the games were quite fun and challenging. I feel that someone were to make a game that had the basic aspects of the genre, while completely redoing all that other nonsense, you could have something really great. Maybe it could be attack of the children instead of defense of the ancients.
And this is a fundamental problem I have pointed out many many times.
There are some people who enjoy truly fair directly competitive tests of skill, like I do. But when a game is such a fair test, then a player of low skill level is necessarily going to be hosed. They will not be able to access most of the parts of the game or score any points. That leaves a feeling of futility and frustration. Only someone with the will and determination to increase their skill level will move up. The vast majority of people will just quit.
I too like tests of skill, but I believe that it doesn't need to be tied to a punishments. Let's use a example with a game that I think we both like. Quake. I have only experiences with Quake live, but isn't fundamentally Quake always Quake. When I played Quake live I really liked it and when I did well I felt that it was my skill as a player that resulted me doing well and I don't ever remember being frustrated by failure in there because punishments weren't too harsh.
With MOBA games I tried to find the answer, and the answers that came up were things like "click like crazy so you get the last hit." That's not an interesting test of skill at all. That's button-mash city.
In my experience (with LoL) last hitting is not about "clicking like crazy" and more about "learn the arbitrary timing to click the creep just at the right time so you can get the last hit. Still somewhat bullshitty though, I don't disagree there. There is a reason why I like to play tank or support that can sit back and let damagedealer focus on last hitting and money grabbing, while I protect him or harass the enemy.
If a person a greatly outleveled and has better items than you then yes, he will most likely destroy you 1v1. However, you can overcome this by clever tactics such as ganking him with multiple people, focus fire on him in team fights, baiting him into bad situations, etc.
Also, when a person gets much stronger than everyone else in the game and is unstoppable, you didn't lose because the game mechanics make it so that its impossible to come back (it probably is) but it's because you let him get that strong. He won because he is better than you. It is like in Peurto Rico and someone sets up the perfect craft/captain engine. Theres no way you can match him in points anymore but you didn't lose because the game design made craft/captain too strong, it is because you let him get there.
Anyway, who here is in the Dota 2 beta atm? Give me your steam names and we can play, mine is iruul. I also have an extra beta invite I don't mind giving away, but I want to give it to someone who will actually like the game and play it. Not to try it for a few games and stop.
With MOBA games I tried to find the answer, and the answers that came up were things like "click like crazy so you get the last hit." That's not an interesting test of skill at all. That's button-mash city. Yet, when I was still naive and didn't realize all the bullshit, the games were quite fun and challenging. I feel that someone were to make a game that had the basic aspects of the genre, while completely redoing all that other nonsense, you could have something really great. Maybe it could be attack of the children instead of defense of the ancients.
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With CS the answer was that I had to aim more precisely, shoot first, anticipate the enemy's route and actions, act in a way that won't be anticipated, and make clever use of the map. Those were things that are interesting and difficult to think about and execute on a consistent basis across so many varied scenarios and opponents.
What you described liking about CS:S is exactly what makes a player skilled at a game like LoL. you could easily kill a player full on their build playing like that.
Anyway, who here is in the Dota 2 beta atm? Give me your steam names and we can play, mine is iruul. I also have an extra beta invite I don't mind giving away, but I want to give it to someone who will actually like the game and play it. Not to try it for a few games and stop.
How can I know that I will or won't like it before having a chance to try it out. Lately (partly because of this thread) I have been interested for the possibility to get to try out how dota 2 play in comparison to LoL. So if you want to give me the invite, feel free, but I will not promise that I will like the game.
With MOBA games I tried to find the answer, and the answers that came up were things like "click like crazy so you get the last hit." That's not an interesting test of skill at all. That's button-mash city. Yet, when I was still naive and didn't realize all the bullshit, the games were quite fun and challenging. I feel that someone were to make a game that had the basic aspects of the genre, while completely redoing all that other nonsense, you could have something really great. Maybe it could be attack of the children instead of defense of the ancients.
Clicking like crazy is the opposite thing you do to get a last hit. Getting a last hit you make 1 timed attack near when a creep's health is low. This is only mindless if you are by yourself, when you and facing other people you have to have better timing to them. Someone better will always get more last hits than you.
But what I really wanted to say is, how is this different from clicking on someones head the fastest? All you are doing is replacing timming clicks on a head with timing clicks on a creep. Whether or not this is more/less interesting test of skill is completely subjective.
On a side note, Dota 2 has bots that can be used to replace any number of players.. You can have a team of 5 and practice vs bots, or solo with 9 bots, to help learn the game. I think if you gave it more of a chance you'd at least get a better understanding of how to mechanics play out. A lot of the complaints are, imo, from misconceptions on how the game works.
On a side note, Dota 2 has bots that can be used to replace any number of players.. You can have a team of 5 and practice vs bots, or solo with 9 bots, to help learn the game. I think if you gave it more of a chance you'd at least get a better understanding of how to mechanics play out. A lot of the complaints are, imo, from misconceptions on how the game works.
LoL has bots also, so that applies to that too. If I'm not misunderstood if Scott has any actual experience from moba it's from HoN, witch I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
Anyway, who here is in the Dota 2 beta atm? Give me your steam names and we can play, mine is iruul. I also have an extra beta invite I don't mind giving away, but I want to give it to someone who will actually like the game and play it. Not to try it for a few games and stop.
How can I know that I will or won't like it before having a chance to try it out. Lately (partly because of this thread) I have been interested for the possibility to get to try out how dota 2 play in comparison to LoL. So if you want to give me the invite, feel free, but I will not promise that I will like the game.
What I meant was if you like moba games in general, not strictly Dota 2. Though Dota 2 is pretty much Dota, and if you like that you'd like this game. What is your steam name. I'll send you invite when I get off work today if noone else seems to want an invite more. I highly suggest you play vs bots to get used to interface/mechanics though. The community is shit.
Also, I've played about 100 or so games of LoL. Its alright. Overall I like Dota/Dota 2/HoN more. I feel LoL is a little too casual but the main reason is because if you don't spend any money you only get the few heroes in rotation to play with. I get bored of these heroes before I've made enough to buy new ones whereas HoN/Dota 2 all 100+ heroes are unlocked from the start and I never get bored, even playing with a fraction of the pool. Metagame persistance also bugs me. All my friends also play HoN/Dota too and I don't know anyone on LoL.
Anyway, who here is in the Dota 2 beta atm? Give me your steam names and we can play, mine is iruul. I also have an extra beta invite I don't mind giving away, but I want to give it to someone who will actually like the game and play it. Not to try it for a few games and stop.
I'm in the Dota 2 Beta as well but all my MOBA friends went back to HoN a long time ago so I haven't played it hardely at all.
The reason I played LoL over Dota 2 since I received an invite, is because the Dota franchise took mechanical flaws/bugs from the WC3 Dota mod and made them core parts of game play. Denial (killing your own minions or towers to deny the enemy xp and gold) has never been fun for me, and is one of the easiest ways to break game play. I will agree that LoL would be much better without persistent effects such as the Mastery pages and Runes. It's interesting in a meta-game sense, but it usually results in sub optimal setups etc.
Apreche, it's dogma for you to admit you have way to little information to make any educated claims, isn't it? To take your strawman, or in this case, house analogy. You claim the house is in dire need of renovating because the front door looks like it doesn't close proper and appears to let through a lot of wind, being completely ignorant of the fact that the house was recently renovated, is super awesome, and a new front door is in the backyard being painted, almost ready to replace the old one.
You tell people to think outside the fucking box when half, or even more, of the stuff you suggest is already part of the game, you just don't fucking know it because you have never actually looked inside the box. For the love of your dick, fucking educate yourself so you can actually make educated claims and think outside the box proper.
Skip directly to Dota 2, there's a ton more going on there than in League of Legends. That includes creep denying. Jesus that shit's so fucking crucial in regards to resource control.
The reason I played LoL over Dota 2 since I received an invite, is because the Dota franchise took mechanical flaws/bugs from the WC3 Dota mod and made them core parts of game play.
You mean like bunny hopping in certain popular FPS games? Or skiing in Tribes?
It is at first glance counter-intuitive to destroy your own creeps and towers, but that stems from a complete lack of knowledge about the game mechanics and the effect of those actions in terms of controlling resources in the game. Then there's the several forms of 'skill' (do we have buzzword status yet?) it adds, not just in terms of timing, but also in terms of decision making for example. To make matters worse, you will also want to keep track of the other players, not just those on the enemy team that are in the same lane as you, but also across the map, and keep your escape route clear. And that's only a few aspects of the early game before any crazy big shit happens.
EDIT: I used to think 'denying' to be dumb as well. Then I got an invite to Dota 2, played a few games against bots, used the grey matter between my ears for a change, and suddenly I realized how completely and utterly retarded and uninformed I was.
Valve's gotta use their production values to make a damn nice tutorial that introduces these concepts. I think there's something in the files right now that points out to this being the case. I would love to hear Gaben's soothing voice tell me about denying my own creeps.
Hey, maybe there's a connection there. Same demographic enjoys both?
Since you enjoy the ponies, as do a lot of people who really love them some furry porn and fuckin' in fursuits, I'm not sure that's a high horse you want to ride too much further. So to speak.
Hey, maybe there's a connection there. Same demographic enjoys both?
Since you enjoy the ponies, as do a lot of people who really love them some furry porn and fuckin' in fursuits, I'm not sure that's a high horse you want to ride too much further. So to speak.
I'm pretty sure riding ponies occupies roughly 22% of Scott's active brainspace.
Hey, maybe there's a connection there. Same demographic enjoys both?
Since you enjoy the ponies, as do a lot of people who really love them some furry porn and fuckin' in fursuits, I'm not sure that's a high horse you want to ride too much further. So to speak.
I'm pretty sure riding ponies occupies roughly 22% of Scott's active brainspace.
Though it's a total urban myth that he thinks about it every six seconds.
As a completely unrelated side note, I almost want to take Scott out on some actual horses sometime, just to see what happens. It would either be totally mundane, or hilarious, and I can't decide which.
Hey, maybe there's a connection there. Same demographic enjoys both?
Since you enjoy the ponies, as do a lot of people who really love them some furry porn and fuckin' in fursuits, I'm not sure that's a high horse you want to ride too much further. So to speak.
A lot of different people enjoy the ponies in different ways. I'm pointing out that it seems that only one a very special kind of person seems to be able to understand this nonsense. I think the day is approaching where we are getting old and not understanding what the kids are up to these days. I didn't think it would ever happen because I keep up with shit! I read Internets every day! How has this come to pass? This is why I try so hard to figure it out, but it still makes no sense. It's like the younger generations are speaking a different language, and there's no way to learn it.
I mechanically like denying. It means that if I'm in a position where I can't necessarily last-hit (due to harrass) I can still potentially impact my opponent negatively so my team falls less-far behind. I like having that option if I'm not playing a good harass or farm or I'm 1v2 in a lane. In this case, it's a "play" you can run against the enemy team to counter certain disadvantages in laning. That I like.
The in game representation is a problem into itself though. There are certainly other proposed ways to represent it in-game.
Why not just have an option to turn off the creeps in a lane? It makes more logical sense, and doesn't tie down a player to doing one stupid thing over and over again.
A lot of different people enjoy the ponies in different ways. I'm pointing out that it seems that only one a very special kind of person seems to be able to understand this nonsense.
And I'm pointing out, through the means of an example that strikes closer to home for you, why you're talking bollocks when you say that. All sorts of people like all sorts of things - I mean, I remember when you were rather skeptical of the quality of the ponies, because you thought it was just gonna be a bit of a girly kid's show(I know I'm not a mind reader, but it's roughly the sentiment you expressed), but it turns out that your initial impression was not entirely accurate. Sure, you're into Ponies, and not into MOBAs, but I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this - Takes all sorts, y'know?
I think the day is approaching where we are getting old and not understanding what the kids are up to these days. I didn't think it would ever happen because I keep up with shit! I read Internets every day! How has this come to pass? This is why I try so hard to figure it out, but it still makes no sense. It's like the younger generations are speaking a different language, and there's no way to learn it.
Approaching? I think it's already here - not just for you, though naturally since I'm a little younger - mid as opposed to late 20s/early-30s(Genuinely sorry, mate, I can't remember what your last birthday was, I actually do feel a little bad about that) - I'm obviously just a short few years behind on that progression. But that doesn't mean I can't observe it here, and observe it starting to happen here, too. I'm behind, and moving a little slower with it - just a matter of being different people - it's still happening, and WAY too quick for my liking.
Err, But before we derail the thread with musings upon our race toward the grave, Back to the MOBAs.
Why not just have an option to turn off the creeps in a lane? It makes more logical sense, and doesn't tie down a player to doing one stupid thing over and over again.
Denying is a little more active and a little more engaging. There's a timing/skill component to it that would be lost there. Not to say that isn't a possibility, but there would be something lost in that.
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There are some people who enjoy truly fair directly competitive tests of skill, like I do. But when a game is such a fair test, then a player of low skill level is necessarily going to be hosed. They will not be able to access most of the parts of the game or score any points. That leaves a feeling of futility and frustration. Only someone with the will and determination to increase their skill level will move up. The vast majority of people will just quit.
When I first played CS I had the same feeling. I died almost instantly and spent a lot of time watching. Now I spend a lot less time watching because I don't die immediately, or at all. Also, rounds are a lot faster than they used to be. Also, when I'm watching I'm paying attention, learning, etc.
Now when I try to play RTS or MOBA I have those same feelings I had in the early days of CS. I try to play, and I just get hosed immediately. I got frustrated and quit, like you did with CS. But I didn't get frustrated just because I was getting hosed. I got frustrated when I discovered what I would have to do to move upwards.
Whenever I play any game, the only thing I think is "what do I have to do to win this game?"
With CS the answer was that I had to aim more precisely, shoot first, anticipate the enemy's route and actions, act in a way that won't be anticipated, and make clever use of the map. Those were things that are interesting and difficult to think about and execute on a consistent basis across so many varied scenarios and opponents.
With MOBA games I tried to find the answer, and the answers that came up were things like "click like crazy so you get the last hit." That's not an interesting test of skill at all. That's button-mash city. Yet, when I was still naive and didn't realize all the bullshit, the games were quite fun and challenging. I feel that someone were to make a game that had the basic aspects of the genre, while completely redoing all that other nonsense, you could have something really great. Maybe it could be attack of the children instead of defense of the ancients.
Also, when a person gets much stronger than everyone else in the game and is unstoppable, you didn't lose because the game mechanics make it so that its impossible to come back (it probably is) but it's because you let him get that strong. He won because he is better than you. It is like in Peurto Rico and someone sets up the perfect craft/captain engine. Theres no way you can match him in points anymore but you didn't lose because the game design made craft/captain too strong, it is because you let him get there.
Anyway, who here is in the Dota 2 beta atm? Give me your steam names and we can play, mine is iruul. I also have an extra beta invite I don't mind giving away, but I want to give it to someone who will actually like the game and play it. Not to try it for a few games and stop.
What you described liking about CS:S is exactly what makes a player skilled at a game like LoL. you could easily kill a player full on their build playing like that.
But what I really wanted to say is, how is this different from clicking on someones head the fastest? All you are doing is replacing timming clicks on a head with timing clicks on a creep. Whether or not this is more/less interesting test of skill is completely subjective.
On a side note, Dota 2 has bots that can be used to replace any number of players.. You can have a team of 5 and practice vs bots, or solo with 9 bots, to help learn the game. I think if you gave it more of a chance you'd at least get a better understanding of how to mechanics play out. A lot of the complaints are, imo, from misconceptions on how the game works.
Also, I've played about 100 or so games of LoL. Its alright. Overall I like Dota/Dota 2/HoN more. I feel LoL is a little too casual but the main reason is because if you don't spend any money you only get the few heroes in rotation to play with. I get bored of these heroes before I've made enough to buy new ones whereas HoN/Dota 2 all 100+ heroes are unlocked from the start and I never get bored, even playing with a fraction of the pool. Metagame persistance also bugs me. All my friends also play HoN/Dota too and I don't know anyone on LoL.
You tell people to think outside the fucking box when half, or even more, of the stuff you suggest is already part of the game, you just don't fucking know it because you have never actually looked inside the box. For the love of your dick, fucking educate yourself so you can actually make educated claims and think outside the box proper.
Skip directly to Dota 2, there's a ton more going on there than in League of Legends. That includes creep denying. Jesus that shit's so fucking crucial in regards to resource control.
gg wp
EDIT: I used to think 'denying' to be dumb as well. Then I got an invite to Dota 2, played a few games against bots, used the grey matter between my ears for a change, and suddenly I realized how completely and utterly retarded and uninformed I was.
About as much sense as Homestuck.
Hey, maybe there's a connection there. Same demographic enjoys both?
As a completely unrelated side note, I almost want to take Scott out on some actual horses sometime, just to see what happens. It would either be totally mundane, or hilarious, and I can't decide which.
The in game representation is a problem into itself though. There are certainly other proposed ways to represent it in-game.
Err, But before we derail the thread with musings upon our race toward the grave, Back to the MOBAs.