We agree. That was never an assertion I was making. Note, I said that I'd much rather have those 2 pulls to get to chances to just win. I have no problem sitting in the 4 spot because I know that if I make it to a pull at all, my odds are equal. It's the fact that the 4 spot may never get a chance to draw the "I win" tile.
This is a road this thread was never meant to go down. Someone (and I'm too tired to look up, having, again, just woken up) misinterpreted something I said and ran with it.
What you're saying is still wrong; it looks like I wasn't clear enough. I'm not saying that the chances of winning once it's your turn are the same in both situations, I'm saying that the chances of both getting to your turn and subsequently winning are the same. The best way to sum the point up is probably what I said before:
To elaborate, the increased chance of losing due to someone else having already drawn the "I win" tile is exactly balanced out by the increased chance of winning due to other players having removed more non-"I win" tiles.
Similarly,
You could form all the tiles into a deck for each player at the start of the game and have each turn being take top tile, play top tile. There'd still be no actual alteration to the game parts.
Don't worry too much about it, though; statistics and probability fucks with the human brain. After all, nine out of ten people get the Monty Hall problem wrong.
On this note, just played my first game ever of "Lords of Waterdeep". Myself and a friend were learning, while the other guy was teaching. Experienced guy said it was his fastest game ever. Came in second by ~40 which isn't great, but we also got the game done in minimal time which is all the better for a first game IMHO.
Whenever I teach my roommates a new board game, I'll play one game giving them helpful suggestions the whole time. For the second game (usually a few weeks later), I'll help them initially (to get them up to speed) and then explicitly state that beyond that point I may potentially give them false information to help me win. Usually it end up with me giving about 80% true information and 20% information that, while it might help them, will help me more in the long run. I think that's pretty fair, and explicitly stating the "end of the tutorial point" prompts them to pay more attention to their own strategies and the metagame.
Whenever I teach my roommates a new board game, I'll play one game giving them helpful suggestions the whole time. For the second game (usually a few weeks later), I'll help them initially (to get them up to speed) and then explicitly state that beyond that point I may potentially give them false information to help me win. Usually it end up with me giving about 80% true information and 20% information that, while it might help them, will help me more in the long run. I think that's pretty fair, and explicitly stating the "end of the tutorial point" prompts them to pay more attention to their own strategies and the metagame.
I think you've touched on something else that affects the turn-taking problem: some groups have problems with going back to the same games. They're always chasing after the newest game and are always stuck in learning mode. I love to wear a game out.
Whenever I teach my roommates a new board game, I'll play one game giving them helpful suggestions the whole time. For the second game (usually a few weeks later), I'll help them initially (to get them up to speed) and then explicitly state that beyond that point I may potentially give them false information to help me win. Usually it end up with me giving about 80% true information and 20% information that, while it might help them, will help me more in the long run. I think that's pretty fair, and explicitly stating the "end of the tutorial point" prompts them to pay more attention to their own strategies and the metagame.
I think you've touched on something else that affects the turn-taking problem: some groups have problems with going back to the same games. They're always chasing after the newest game and are always stuck in learning mode. I love to wear a game out.
Yeah, the first time you play a game is always relatively slower than the first play no matter the skill level. If you want to play games quickly, you have to play with people who have all played the game a few times already, and probably also recently.
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I still need to introduce them the Puerto Rico. Haven't played that in too long, myself.