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GeekNights Thursday - Parking

MrPeriodMrPeriod
edited January 2013 in GeekNights

Tonight on GeekNights, thanks to a listener suggestion, we discuss... parking. In the "lounge," Rym updated his Flickr with stuff, was peed on by an elderly gentleman, witnessed a water cup getting put in its god damned place, and lamented the folly of youth. Scott didn't want to do a new show on taxes, nor did he want to do one on defecation.

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  • SailSail

    peed on by an elderly gentleman,

    I bet this is exactly how it went down:

  • MATATATMATATAT
    Parking violations at WSU were fucking egregious. Somewhere in the realm of $60-$70 for parking a lot without a pass. Not only that but they had ownership over what seemed like half of the town of Pullman.
  • MATATATMATATAT
    Also if you're in snow and you are limited to two wheel drive then driving a manual car is far superior.
  • RymRym
    Also if you're in snow and you are limited to two wheel drive then driving a manual car is far superior.
    How so?

    I ask because manually selecting a gear when necessary is a facility of all modern automatic cars.

  • MATATATMATATAT
    edited January 2013
    Being able to manage your torque to a higher degree helps a lot on ice and slippery snow. This can be gear specific but usually requires riding the clutch to some degree.

    Actually, on Wiki...
    Adverse road conditions
    In adverse road conditions, notably snow or ice, it is recommended to pull away in as high a gear as possible to minimize torque on the wheels and thereby maintain traction with the road. Pulling away requires progressively slower engagement of the clutch as the gear increases, and in a high gear it is necessary to engage the clutch slowly to avoid the increased risk of stalling the engine, or, in the case of adverse weather conditions, spinning the wheels.
    There are some others on that page but some I would argue have gotten better with time. Slippery conditions is something I can back with a lot of experience.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • RymRym
    Having driven both manuals and autos in snow, I do not find that this was ever the case. You get the same effect with the auto transmission slippage when pulling out.
  • ColdguyColdguy
    I vote for having a Taxes episode, I do not vote for the pooping episode nor the "The" episode.
  • MATATATMATATAT
    edited January 2013
    Having driven both manuals and autos in snow, I do not find that this was ever the case. You get the same effect with the auto transmission slippage when pulling out.
    I'm not really sure what you mean by auto transmission slippage in this context but most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away. Riding the clutch allows you to get the same effect as a manual in drive but allows, in my experience, easier application of torque with which to find the right traction to pull away and not spin your tires.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • RymRym
    most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away.
    I've never experienced anything like that in my life, despite living in Michigan and driving in feet of snow.

  • MATATATMATATAT
    edited January 2013
    most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away.
    I've never experienced anything like that in my life, despite living in Michigan and driving in feet of snow.

    That is baffling to me. I mean when you're not dealing with hills its less common but even on flat land I've seen it happen and its happened to me on numerous occasions.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • ChurbaChurba
    I saw it happen plenty to other people in england, but I didn't drive very much in the snow. The one time I did, it was rather less than well done.
  • RymRym
    edited January 2013
    Oh, I dealt with hills. I drove upstate often in the winter (for winter sports).

    I just never in my life had a problem where I couldn't fully control my wheel spin purely with the accelerator when starting to move from a standstill in snow. The only time it was ever an issue was when my open differential would freespin a free wheel. That's trivially solved by rocking.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    edited January 2013
    most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away.
    I've never experienced anything like that in my life, despite living in Michigan and driving in feet of snow.
    My car has traction control and stability control, I make the computer figure this shit out for me.
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • MATATATMATATAT
    edited January 2013
    Oh, I dealt with hills. I drove upstate often in the winter (for winter sports).

    I just never in my life had a problem where I couldn't fully control my wheel spin purely with the accelerator when starting to move from a standstill in snow. The only time it was ever an issue was when my open differential would freespin a free wheel. That's trivially solved by rocking.
    Oh I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's impossible or exceedingly difficult. I'm just saying that much easier to handle a two wheel manual car in the snow than it is a two wheel automatic car. Rocking in a manual is much easier as well.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • AprecheApreche
    most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away.
    I've never experienced anything like that in my life, despite living in Michigan and driving in feet of snow.
    My car has traction control and stability control, I make the computer figure this shit out for me.
    I don't know why they don't put this in every car ever.
  • RymRym
    Oh, I dealt with hills. I drove upstate often in the winter (for winter sports).

    I just never in my life had a problem where I couldn't fully control my wheel spin purely with the accelerator when starting to move from a standstill in snow. The only time it was ever an issue was when my open differential would freespin a free wheel. That's trivially solved by rocking.
    Oh I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's impossible or exceedingly difficult. I'm just saying that much easier to handle a two wheel manual car in the snow than it is a two wheel automatic car. Rocking in a manual is much easier as well.
    Having done both, I disagree and believe it's easier with an automatic.

  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    edited January 2013
    most automatics I've driven while on snow have a tendency to either not apply enough torque while idling in drive to get moving or are too quick to accelerate when pulling away.
    I've never experienced anything like that in my life, despite living in Michigan and driving in feet of snow.
    My car has traction control and stability control, I make the computer figure this shit out for me.
    I don't know why they don't put this in every car ever.
    They are now legally required to. Since model year 2012.
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • MATATATMATATAT
    Oh, I dealt with hills. I drove upstate often in the winter (for winter sports).

    I just never in my life had a problem where I couldn't fully control my wheel spin purely with the accelerator when starting to move from a standstill in snow. The only time it was ever an issue was when my open differential would freespin a free wheel. That's trivially solved by rocking.
    Oh I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's impossible or exceedingly difficult. I'm just saying that much easier to handle a two wheel manual car in the snow than it is a two wheel automatic car. Rocking in a manual is much easier as well.
    Having done both, I disagree and believe it's easier with an automatic.

    Although I struggle to comprehend how you've come to that conclusion I say to each his own I suppose.
  • AprecheApreche
    I think the most frequent cause of cars being stuck in snow is insufficient shoveling/sanding followed by shitty tires. If there is any data to show that manual transmissions get out of snowed in parking spots more often, I would bet that is because the data did not adjust for the fact that more manual transmission cars (in the US) are trucks and such that have an easier time getting out anyway.
  • RymRym
    edited January 2013
    Although I struggle to comprehend how you've come to that conclusion I say to each his own I suppose.
    Stopped in snow?

    1. Release parking brake
    2. Shift to Drive
    3. Apply accelerator carefully and drive out.

    No added step of clutch, no additional difficulty.


    If there's trouble:

    1. Release parking brake
    2. Shift to Drive
    3. Tap accelerator
    4. Shift to Reverse
    5. Tap accelerator
    6. Repeat 2-5 until free


    You have plenty of control with just the accelerator. It's like the first thing they teach you to do after you learn the basics of driving in the midwest.
    Post edited by Rym on
  • MATATATMATATAT
    This all requires demonstration to prove how easier/better it would be.
  • HMTKSteveHMTKSteve
    Although I struggle to comprehend how you've come to that conclusion I say to each his own I suppose.
    Stopped in snow?

    1. Release parking brake
    2. Shift to Drive
    3. Apply accelerator carefully and drive out.

    No added step of clutch, no additional difficulty.


    If there's trouble:

    1. Release parking brake
    2. Shift to Drive
    3. Tap accelerator
    4. Shift to Reverse
    5. Tap accelerator
    6. Repeat 2-5 until free


    You have plenty of control with just the accelerator. It's like the first thing they teach you to do after you learn the basics of driving in the midwest.
    Is that before or after the class on crop identification so you know which fields you can drive through?
  • ChurbaChurba
    They are now legally required to. Since model year 2012.
    That's a good idea - As long as you can turn it off.
  • AprecheApreche
    This all requires demonstration to prove how easier/better it would be.
    There are so many other factors to control for, it would be quite expensive to get meaningful data, and you wouldn't learn very much that is useful unless you invented some new easy way for everyone to escape from being snowed in.
  • AprecheApreche
    They are now legally required to. Since model year 2012.
    That's a good idea - As long as you can turn it off.
    Why would you want to turn it off other than to participate in a race in which it is banned?
  • MATATATMATATAT
    edited January 2013
    For the record I searched for "automatic vs manual in snow" and of course the results are all anecdotal but the consensus seems to be that it is indeed easier to drive in snow with a manual, all noting more control over torque and wheelspin making it easier.
    Post edited by MATATAT on
  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    edited January 2013
    They are now legally required to. Since model year 2012.
    That's a good idea - As long as you can turn it off.
    Why would you want to turn it off other than to participate in a race in which it is banned?
    Because the limits set for a lot of stability control programs cut in earlier than would be ideal for the best speed. However, a lot of performance cars have adjustable stability programs for best performance. A safer street setting and a higher limit track setting designed for the best lap times possible. My miata's ESP had no settings, but leaned on the performance end of the spectrum. It was a little unnerving in the rain, but great dry. Though because of the unnervingness I never really trusted it with my life in bad conditions. My Mazda2 seems to work better, it's nice in the dry for spirited driving, but doesn't scare me in bad conditions.
    Post edited by George Patches on
  • RymRym
    For the record I searched for "automatic vs manual in snow" and of course the results are all anecdotal but the consensus seems to be that it is indeed easier to drive in snow with a manual, all noting more control over torque and wheelspin making it easier.
    I'd submit that only people who drive stick would post their anecdotes in most situations, as people who drive automatics neither think nor care about it or their cars generally. ;^)

  • George PatchesGeorge Patches
    I like my manual for driving as fast as is possible, having lower parasitic losses on my low torque engine, and yielding better fuel economy than the old-tech auto that was optional on the Mazda2. It has no other advantages.
  • ChurbaChurba
    edited January 2013
    They are now legally required to. Since model year 2012.
    That's a good idea - As long as you can turn it off.
    Why would you want to turn it off other than to participate in a race in which it is banned?
    Tell me, Scott, what would you do if your PC had a feature you didn't like, that hobbled your PC from doing what you wanted to do with it, but you couldn't turn off? Or didn't mind even just wanted to be able to toggle, but couldn't? You either wouldn't fuckin' buy it, or you'd do whatever you could to get rid of that feature, because it's your computer, you own it, you can do what you want with it provided that it's legal.

    So, why would my car - which I own, and can do what I want with providing it's legal - be any different? Why shouldn't I be able to turn it off if I so wish? Personally, I just don't like driving with traction control, I dislike the feel of it, and it provides me practically no benefit in day to day life. If it was snowing, would I turn it on? Yeah, because that's when it would be useful to me. I also don't live anywhere that it snows.

    Plus - Racing isn't banned. Speeding is banned, driving unsafely is banned in some respects, but Racing isn't banned. On top of that - Dude, tracks and track days exist. Private property exists. You can do what the fuck you like on both.

    And finally - if you were racing with someone, you want traction control ON, not off. Corner faster and harder, less wheelspin on takeoff, more forgiving of small mistakes - dude, why do you think it's banned in F1 and Nascar? Because it's fucking ACE for racing, because it's such a useful driving aid when you're pushing your car's limits - as you do when you race. I've used traction control on track days, and I've raced without it, too. I prefer the latter, half for feel, half just to be a stubborn prick, I'm still pretty quick either way.
    Post edited by Churba on
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