Playing with another rulebook?

Daikun

I've had this idea buzzing around in my head for a while, and I want to see what you guys think.

Imagine you brought out a D&D and set everything up, but just before you begin playing, the DM throws out the rulebook and pulls out the Burning Wheel's rulebook, and you started playing by that game's rules instead. Could it actually work? If so, can it work for other game combinations?

open_sketchbook

I have done this, in a manner of speaking. Back in high school I ran a long-running game of Advanced Recon. I ended one session with the team getting drugged by NVA interrogators. When they arrived to their next session, I handed them all D&D 3.5 sheets with their characters translated over to them (The RTO was a wizard, the Pigman was a barbarian, the Medic was a cleric, etc.) and the session represented their drug-fueled escape.

okeefe

It's a dick move to pull this on your players with no warning.

Regarding Burning Wheel and D&D specifically:

1. Burning THAC0 exists.
   
2. You could always run BW in a D&D setting.
   
3. Torchbearer is coming.
   

There's several games out there that I would prefer to play with another system. E.g., White Wolf's settings are interesting, but WW can't write mechanics worth a damn.

Neito

Seriously, though, don't be a dick. If your players are expecting one game, showing up with another (especially if they put serious time and effort into creating them) is just a asshole move. I get that you probably want to expose your players to a wider variety of games, but just randomly changing boats mid-stream without warning is unproductive.

Xefas

Regardless of the morality of the situation, and whether doing so makes you a variety of "dick" or "asshole" or whatever, it probably won't end up the way you want it to anyway.

If you're playing with people who you can't just sit down with and say "Hey, I found this game I really like. It's different, but I think we should give it an honest shot and see what happens." then I doubt their reaction to you attempting to somehow trick or force them to play something they don't want to play won't end well.

And, if I've misread the situation, and you're trying to surprise folks who already want to play Burning Wheel by showing up with Burning Wheel... I'm just confused by the question in general.

Bronzdragon

I'm just confused by the question in general.

If I may try to interpret, I believe that Daikun is asking whether the setup you do for D&D can also work for Burning wheel. Additionally, are there other RPGs that also have similar setups.

Short answer, no. D&D's setup is not the same as Burning wheel's. For D&D, you mostly need to have encounters ready. Lists of monsters, with a map layout to fight on. Burning wheel needs a draft for a plot, on the other hand. Maybe some motivations for characters. Non of that is (technically) required for D&D.

Daikun

It's a dick move to pull this on your players with no warning.

Seriously, though, don't be a dick. If your players are expecting one game, showing up with another (especially if they put serious time and effort into creating them) is just a asshole move. I get that you probably want to expose your players to a wider variety of games, but just randomly changing boats mid-stream without warning is unproductive.

I never said anything about doing this mid-game. I was referring to doing it from the start.

before you begin playing

There also WOULD be a fair amount of time for the other players to know. Call up your friends ahead of time and discuss the idea with them first; see if they would like it before diving in.

okeefe

I never said anything about doing this mid-game. I was referring to doing it from the start.

From the start is before "Imagine you brought out a D&D and set everything up". From the start is not inviting your friends over for D&D and then pulling out Burning Wheel.

pence

I'm confused about the question, now. What constitutes "setting everything up"? Is the sudden change in system supposed to be a surprise, or is it more a question about how interchangeable RPGs are?

Daikun

From the start is before "Imagine you brought out a D&D and set everything up". From the start is not inviting your friends over for D&D and then pulling out Burning Wheel.

"Setting everything up" just refers to bringing out the board and the pieces. No one has really played anything yet.

Bronzdragon

"Setting everything up" just refers to bringing out the board and the pieces. No one has really played anything yet.

So, basically, can you play Burning Wheel with a D&D (pre-made) scenario?

okeefe

So, basically, can you play Burning Wheel with a D&D (pre-made) scenario?

Sort of; look at the Burning THAC0 link I posted earlier. BW requires a great deal more player engagement than D&D.

Personally, I would instead use Torchbearer when it comes out, which should be very soon!

open_sketchbook

"Tricking" your players because you want to play a different game than they want to is kinda a dick move. I could see this making people very angry, because it's basically going "Any and all planning you did for this session, the character build you've been thinking of? Fuck you, we're playing this game you've never heard of."

Like, Burning Wheel and Torchbearer are great and you should want to expose players to them, but you always need to remember that the GM does not rule, he serves. It's perfectly legit to be up front and go "Guys, I'll GM, on the condition we play Mouse Guard" and then, if that's a problem, try to compromise ("Fine, we'll play 'Dorf Guard'. Now everyone make seven characters. Okay, the first three have died already in lever accidents.") because the RPG you didn't exactly want is better than no RPG at all, but trying to pull one over on your players isn't nice.

Rym

I don't see it as a dick move, as anyone who is truly angry about it isn't someone I'd want to play games with anyway. It's a friend-sorter. ;^)

The base issue is one I'm continuously amazed with. So many people are so ridiculously picky about the tabletop RPG system they'll use. They're like the people who will only eat chicken fingers and french fries.

I'm also amazed at the sheer level of "drama" caused by players among these groups breaking rank and wanting to play a different game.

open_sketchbook

I agree people need to be more flexible, but if I was told we were getting together to play D&D and I arrive to find out we're playing, say, Rifts, well, fuck that, Rifts is awful, but on top of that, I probably wanted to play some D&D. If I wanted to play Rifts, I would have said, hey, maybe can we play Rifts? Also, can you lobotomize me, because I want to play Rifts?

I had probably been sitting at home with my D&D books like "Yeah, gonna be a wixard. Gonna cast some spells." Now I'm gonna be disappointed that I won't be a wixard and no spells will be cast. There is a right way and a wrong way to fuck with people's expectations.

I'm open to trying new things, but people deliberately fucking with me? The friend sorting thing can go both ways.

Rym

But that's just it. My friends aren't dimwits. If any one of them pulled a bait-and-switch, it's probably worthwhile to stay for whatever it is they brought to the table.

Really, if you have a friend that you specifically would have to trick into playing a game, you probably shouldn't bother playing games with them at all.

HMTKSteve

Sorry but bait-n-switch is never cool. You start with RPGs and then one night you go on a blind date with your buddy's girlfriend's friend and find out that that there are one two many penises in the room.

open_sketchbook

But that's just it. My friends aren't dimwits. If any one of them pulled a bait-and-switch, it's probably worthwhile to stay for whatever it is they brought to the table.

Really, if you have a friend that you specifically would have to trick into playing a game, you probably shouldn't bother playing games with them at all.

I wish I had nothing but cool people to play with. But unfortunately, the old "Bad RPG is better than no RPG" thing has reared it's ugly head more than a few times. It's one of the reasons I've ran about ten times as many games as I've played.

Churba

I think that the only time the bait-and-switch is okay, is when you do it in the way Sketch described above - the system was temporary and story driven. If you just make permanent changes like that out of nowhere with zero warning or discussion, that's when it's a dick move. Not because of the system change, or anything like that, but because you're making no attempt to communicate or sort things out with your group like rational people.

Sure, if they don't want to try burning wheel, or or Pathfinder, or whatever other system is near and dear to your dice-rollin' heart, then that's an issue to solve, but that doesn't mean you should essentially just black-bag their characters and force the players into it. Instead of trying to force them, or just unceremoniously booting them, you can give them a chance to wrap things up and step out gracefully, or some other reasonable solution. Yeah, sometimes you might have to give them a shock to the system. Maybe it'll go well, maybe not. But bait-and-switch tricks or the old "Rocks fall everyone dies, now let's play MY game" trick, that's just a shitty way to conduct yourself as a RPG or tabletop player.

Basically, if you pulled the bait and switch just to introduce a new system, then you're doing it wrong, no matter how good you think your taste in games is. I'm not going to walk if someone does it to me, but if they think that they specifically had to trick me to get me to try a new system, I'd be kinda insulted. I mean, does my friend think so little of me that they couldn't just, y'know, pitch the idea or say something about it?

Alex

Regardless of the social aspect, it doesn't work mechanically.

The "setup" for D&D has literally no relevance to Burning Wheel (which doesn't use a board, or pieces); at most, you'll trick yourself into thinking you've prepared for a Burning Wheel session when you haven't.

Cremlian

I think the bigger trick was Alex putting Burning Wheel aspects into our D&D game making us want to play Burning Wheel after that... Really it was a good way to teach burning wheel mechanics a little at a time and while it was customizing a game blah blah blah, I think it was a great way to get people into a foreign role playing game setting.

okeefe

I don't see it as a dick move, as anyone who is truly angry about it isn't someone I'd want to play games with anyway. It's a friend-sorter. ;^)

The base issue is one I'm continuously amazed with. So many people are so ridiculously picky about the tabletop RPG system they'll use. They're like the people who will only eat chicken fingers and french fries.

I don't understand this gaming mindset either. I've started a new group when my otherwise idle D&D group didn't want to try other games. If I tricked my D&D group into showing up, they'd just be pissed and rightly so.

This is the same group where two of them went to PAX East and did not have fun.

Apsup

The base issue is one I'm continuously amazed with. So many people are so ridiculously picky about the tabletop RPG system they'll use. They're like the people who will only eat chicken fingers and french fries.

It's one thing to only like one thing, obviously that's just silly. But people are allowed to have differentiating opinions and not everyone has to like everything. Some people don't like miniature battle focused games, others don't like rules heavy games and some people don't want heavy character drama in their games, people have preferences and likes and it's all good.

Rym

Ahhh, but tabletop gamers are both fussy about AND have ridiculous drama because of it.

Granted, "that guy" is the core issue that makes it so contentious in the end. Tabletop gaming groups are so fragile as it is that everyone is deathly afraid of breaking up any that actually form.

HMTKSteve

It is a bigger issue if someone made a long trip to be there. If they just spent a few minutes getting to your place and you spring a new game on them its not so bad. If they drove and hour it is dickish.