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Benefits of belief
This seems an interesting topic to explore, but was brought up in a thread where debate about it would be neither appropriate nor helpful, so I started this thread to get into it a bit.
Your argument for faith on the grounds that it is "comforting" shares a major issue with pascal's wager: both assume that one can choose what they believe, which I disagree with. I certainly agree that one can twist evidence to fit a world view they hold (or would like to hold), but one cannot simply change one's beliefs as a matter of choice without a major shift in perceived evidence. To illustrate my point, try to simply change your mind about your beliefs on gravity, and begin earnestly believing that the next time you drop something, it will "fall" up. It would be more convenient in many cases to believe in a higher power, but for us atheists, the claim that there is a supernatural entity of some variety is as outrageous as the claim that things fall up: changing someone's opinion on either matter would require quite extraordinary evidence.
Now, as I mentioned, one could either be selective in their observations or twist observed evidence enough to convince themselves that such a being does exist. To me, however, this is the worst kind of dishonesty: lying to yourself. This is the most common way that harmful falsehoods and unscientific beliefs are spread, and the power of it is quite astounding at times. To quote American Beauty, "Never underestimate the power of denial."
Finally, as to the point (raised in another post) that atheism is sad, with the implication that a secular world view must be inherently disheartening without the belief in some manner of "link" between us all, I can only say "bullocks." The search for commonality among humanity does not have to be approached the way you approach it. The interdependence of humanity is real and verifiable, and needs not look to the supernatural for demonstration. We affect those around us whether <random god concept> made it that way or not.
//EDIT: turned "random god" into a tag...that's what I get for posting with a head cold
Posted By: SparkybuzzedAs far as the rest of it, a belief in a higher power does not mean I have a vision of a scary old man in the clouds. It's very Greek/Roman and not quite what I have in mind. I don't know what the issue is with believing in some type of higher power or spiritual essence that connects us all. Forget the heaven/hell-religion argument. Just the idea that there is a spiritual - or "supernatural" - connection between all of us and all of the universe is comforting to many billions of people.First, I'll address the last point. I don't expect to change anyone's mind by debating religion, but I agree that discussion encourages contemplation, and getting to know yourself and your beliefs better is a Good ThingTM.
Also, the argument that things shouldn't be brought up because no one will change their minds is ridiculous. Discussion always sparks interest and a lively conversation that can serve to show the differences between people. I don't dislike anyone for not believing in anything, the same way I would expect to not be disliked instantly for believing. I completely respect the choices some of you have made. Don't understand them, but respect them.
Your argument for faith on the grounds that it is "comforting" shares a major issue with pascal's wager: both assume that one can choose what they believe, which I disagree with. I certainly agree that one can twist evidence to fit a world view they hold (or would like to hold), but one cannot simply change one's beliefs as a matter of choice without a major shift in perceived evidence. To illustrate my point, try to simply change your mind about your beliefs on gravity, and begin earnestly believing that the next time you drop something, it will "fall" up. It would be more convenient in many cases to believe in a higher power, but for us atheists, the claim that there is a supernatural entity of some variety is as outrageous as the claim that things fall up: changing someone's opinion on either matter would require quite extraordinary evidence.
Now, as I mentioned, one could either be selective in their observations or twist observed evidence enough to convince themselves that such a being does exist. To me, however, this is the worst kind of dishonesty: lying to yourself. This is the most common way that harmful falsehoods and unscientific beliefs are spread, and the power of it is quite astounding at times. To quote American Beauty, "Never underestimate the power of denial."
Finally, as to the point (raised in another post) that atheism is sad, with the implication that a secular world view must be inherently disheartening without the belief in some manner of "link" between us all, I can only say "bullocks." The search for commonality among humanity does not have to be approached the way you approach it. The interdependence of humanity is real and verifiable, and needs not look to the supernatural for demonstration. We affect those around us whether <random god concept> made it that way or not.
//EDIT: turned "random god" into a tag...that's what I get for posting with a head cold
Comments
I really think it so incredibly important to acknowledge this connection without some spiritual aspect. All aspects of life connect to all other aspects of life. If people choose to see a spiritual connection as well as a scientific connection, that is their right, but the science is there, unquestionably.
By the way... "The Circle of Life" is now stuck in my head... make its stop.. MAKE IT STOP!
"The more I understand about nature the closer I feel to God"
To tell you all the truth I heard that on the discovery channel a looooong time ago, and know that I think about it might have being a monk :P
Of course, it obviously didn't take, and maybe people just stopped doing that...
I think to anyone who seriously considers the scenarios set forth by any religion for what happens after death it all sounds pretty awful. How can you exist as a conscious thing forever? Wouldn't it get dead boring? Would you not go insane? If you're reborn without any memory of your previous self do you still exist? Really? If you can't honestly believe in one of those options then being religious just isn't possible.
To an atheist religion is sad in a false hope kind of way.
Chronocross_xp: I think a lot of famous people have said similar things throughout history... I recall a number of the great men of science considered themselves Christian yet seemed to have this concept of God as the universe and everything in it...which is a pretty good workaround for not actually believing in a literal God and literal bible while still being able to claim you're religious in the social climate of the time.
Almost all of the time, belief is irrational and illogical. It can't be proven and it lies upon speculation. That's what faith is.
Also, can I mention here that I really feel strange being the person sticking up for religion? I'm usually the one sticking to my science over stupidity argument with fundamentalists. I live in the Bible Belt and am an avid supporter of "Keep Your Religion Out of My Business" politics. Weird.
Believing is something is fine. I could go into many subjective things I feel about people and the 'supernatural', but I'm usually polite enough to keep my beleifs from encroaching on others', demanding they think as I do, or making backhanded comments.
\Your argument is bad
\\And you should feel bad.
Atheism doesn't have to be pessimistic. I could argue that only an Atheist could ever believe in the fundamental goodness of humanity given that a great sweeping majority of religions promote good behaviour as a means of avoiding punishment. You're despicable and there's nothing you can do about it but maybe if you accept that and act nice we'll let you off the hook, eh? To me that reeks of pessimism and it's a basic idea a number of major religions are based on. Conversely, does that mean non-religious people are good because they...just are? They certainly don't believe they're going to be hit by lightning if they steal that kid's lollipop, what ever could be stopping them? *shrugs*
Having said that, there are probably brands of Atheism that are pessimistic. Hey, why not? But to say that all Atheists are pessimistic bitter old sods would be an enormous generalisation and only refers to an extreme point of view held by a few. I can see where you'd get that idea but...not true.
And hey, don't worry about sticking up for religion. I'll happily stick up for religious beliefs under the right circumstances. One does occasionally encounter real pessimistic Atheist sods who need some life beat into 'em. :B
I have a real problem with the Atheist = Pessimist statement here. I was raised by an agnostic mother and an atheist father, and most of their friends, as well as mine, are atheists as well, and I have found that they are all loving, caring, HAPPY people. Some are happier and more content than my religious friends that feel conflicted over their religion and their nature (i.e. desire for sex, homosexuality, etc.). In the world at large you can see that many "religious" people are fearful of death, and this fear can be a basis for great turmoil. This can also be experienced by the Agnostic that internally battles for an answer to a question they will never have. Many atheists are fully functioning, happy people who are content and have made peace with the natural cycle of life and death.
The people that you describe, those who have crisis of faith over death, malice, etc. They may very well be pessimistic, but that most certainly does not encompass the majority of atheists. Many Atheist come to the determination that there is no God or Gods owing to an understanding of science, not through the brutal and, I might add, selfish way you describe. (Selfish because they were people who did believe in God, accepting that God's unfathomable plan was above contestation, but then when it doesn't go their way, f*ck that God... if they did have faith in the first place, that sounds like a selfish child to me.) Also, you seem to be making the assumption that a belief in God is the default position for mankind, some people have not been raised with that belief, others might have rejected it right off the bat when it was presented to them, etc. It is a ridiculous argument to assert that anyone requires a belief in God, Gods, the Great Spirit, etc. to be happy. Atheists, just like any other human beings are capable of deep joy and profound happiness.
On a personal note, I have never seen proof of God; therefore, I do not think God exists. However, that does not mean that evidence will never present itself, it just seems unlikely, based on the track record, that it ever will. Despite my lack of belief in God, I describe myself as an Apathetic, not and Atheist. No matter what I do or do not believe in, it does not change the "T"ruth of the matter, so why even concern myself. I merely focus on the world as it is. Life as it is. The rest is (or isn't) in the gods' hands, so what do I care?
This lines up pretty well with what I know of the popular Jewish beliefs on the afterlife: basically that there is none, and your reward for doing good in your life is that it makes the world a better place long after you die. (Feel free to correct me on this, I freely admit I've never been to synagogue, and only discussed this with drunken Jews)
Another argument I've heard raised is that since an atheist has no faith in anything, he has no central guiding principal; no creed, so to speak. Of course, even without faith in the supernatural, most world views include some measure of faith. Humanism maintains faith in the human race, capitalism in both the correctness of the market and the tendency for people to "vote with their wallets", etc. While these faiths are not as grandiose as belief in a heaven or hell, they do have benefits: they're based in reality (or at least deal with the natural world), they can be debated more easily than religious concepts, and they can change with time. I would also submit that the effects of this type of faith are more beneficial to the world than any religion has been. Nothing wrong with playing "Devil's Advocate" from time to time ;-)
I think we're getting some contexts wrong here. I never stated, and do not feel, that atheism causes one to be sad or depressed. It does not cause one (generally) to change one's views about people. I am talking in the much larger, universal sense. To me, the idea that this life is all there is is pessimistic. It is a defeatist philosophy. Have I seen logical proof of an afterlife? Nope. Will I? Nope. But I believe in it. Have I - or anyone else - ever seen proof of the existence of a god? Nope. Will we? Nope. But I still believe.
Science is not the opposite of religion/faith. Science can help further enhance belief if it is understood and explored, as was quoted earlier in the posting. I'm a choral director and professional vocalist. I have an understanding of the anatomy of the voice, the physics of sound, and the mathematical theory behind harmonics and music. Does this make it any less wonderful and amazing? No. It enhances my enjoyment. It is Kinda hard to support either way. Religion drove Western culture for so long that putting forth a statement like that is a bit stretchy. If you put a time limit on it, perhaps, but not ever. Even reversing it and saying that religion has done more harm than capitalism/humanism/etc is a stretch. More wars were caused in the 19th and 20th centuries by economics than religion. But, my main argument has never been for religion. It has been for faith. BIIIIIIIIIIG difference.
I see belief in the afterlife as pessimistic. It denigrates this life, reducing it to banking enough good mojo to gain admittance to the good times to come. It implicitly cheapens this life, as it is a mere iota, a scintilla, of time compared to the glorious immortality to come. It is the poisonous idea behind horrific acts, such as suicide bombers, and merely idiotic, evil acts, such as hobbling stem cell research lest people be pushed away from the path to Heaven.
Defeatist, indeed.
Cheers,
Hank
[1] From the wisdom of Dr. Gregory House.
Well enough of my ranting and preaching ( i had nothing better to do after my physiology exam). I also believe what I wrote because as my father always tells me "the only thing that can't be stoped is death", well at least for now ( well now I am just talking CRAZY :P )
Also, I can't look upon faith with respect. You should not be proud that you believe in things without supporting evidence. Hey, look at me! I believe that there are flying pigs living below the surface of the earth! There's no evidence, but that's my faith. You should respect it, and having that faith makes me a better person. The existence of flying pigs, flying spaghetti monsters, a judeo-christan god, and psychic powers are all equally likely. I think it's pretty sad if you truly believe in any of them.
Sure, in my perfect world, all kinds of things would be true. I'd be able to teleport and read minds. I would never die, unless I wanted to. Electronics and motors would work without any power whatsoever. There would be all sorts of gods doing awesome stuff, and I would be one of them. I would like to believe that all these things are true, but I don't.
Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. If believing in something makes you happy, you can do that. However, I will always discourage people from doing so. It is this disbelief in reality and belief of fantasy that causes most of the problems in our society. Give me an example of any bad thing that has ever happened in human society. The root cause is always that some people either believed something that was not true, or didn't believe something that was true.
I mean seriously. Would you rather continue believing a lie that makes you feel better, or would you believe the truth and make decisions based on that truth which actually make your life better? You aren't going to make the world a better place by imagining it.
We are all anoying kids if we do not work hard for what we want, right?
C'mon, Scott. You've got to have a better argument than the FSM. Perhaps you need a touch of his noodly appendage.
With religion, we're in a situation where there is zero evidence for, and yet substantial evidence against. No logical person can seriously therefore claim that believing contrary to the only evidence we have is a valid point of view. You're not serious, are you? That line of argument has been thoroughly debunked. Furthermore, the acceptance of the Theory of Evolution has more to do with the fact that every piece of evidence we have either lends support to it or, in the very least, does not disprove it than it does with having to prove each and every piece of the theory.
Despite repeated inquiry, the theory has not yet been falsified. The chances of it being true are extremely high.
Scott, your link did give me one good read: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA601_1.html
The ideas of both science and faith should not be separated. Faith can give us a moral view of science and science gives better understanding to the workings of the universe.
Again, apologies for the earlier poor argument. Not usually my style.
Edit: This will be my last post on this topic. I feel like the argument is not progressing and that I have made "verbal" missteps to harm the point of my argument. At some point in the future, I would love to have a discussion on religion/faith, etc. I just cannot continue in this thread.
As for the rest, everyone just seems to be disagreeing with you. That doesn't mean they're upset.