That has to be an error, yeah. Last I checked they ship flat rate priority bubble mailers which are about $5.70. Maybe books aren't shipping from BWHQ post-kickstarter... Not sure.
Anybody going to try out Dread Crypt Skogenby? I'm running TB for the first time this weekend (played once, read the book over twice), and I'm debating between running something I planned or running Skogenby because it looks so damn beautiful.
I'll be running it next weekend at JiffyCon. I played it with Thor at Burning Con, and it fit nicely into a 4-hour slot. It's also well-paced and provides excellent instruction on how to GM it. I'm very impressed.
My biweekly group is doing the House of the Three Squires adventure from the book. I kind of wish Skogenby had been out earlier; I would have started there.
Sweet. Let us know how it goes. Maybe I'll run it tomorrow (tonight?) and we can compare experiences.
I think I'd prefer running it over my written scenario just for that fact that the players are first timers too and the Skogenby has a clear direction, is accomplishable in one session, and has some fine instructional moments built in.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
GM'd it for the first time last night for two four hour sessions. I'm not used to being so cruel. It felt bad but it felt so good.
The players made up for any punishment they got by knocking my Chiropteran out in the first round of a trick conflict at the end of session two. Also one person will hit level two - that is if they can get back to town. Right now there is an Otyugh in their way who will only accept shit for the toll.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
I would be interested in doing an Internet game but usually I'm in a different time zone, and if it's not a weekend my availability is spotty. I also still need to read the rules.
But if you're interested in having Coach McMagic from Spellman High on your team then I am ready and willing. He took the team to state 8 years ago but has since become a drunk reminiscing of old glories.
Once I finish reading the book I'm going to get together with some peeps and play a hopefully extended campaign over Google Hangout. Maybe there will be some slots open for people that are committed and known to be quality.
Interested but looks like you've got a full roster.
Alternatively, anyone interested in a PST hangout? I'm even willing to GM.
Tried to run Torchbearer for NYC people tonight. It was hard. The biggest problem I has was improvising without compromising the fiction of the pre-scripted dungeon. I'm so used to running games where I just make up the story as I go along, that I have no idea what to do with a game where there are predetermined right and wrong answers.
It is so tempting to use frequent conditions for failures because the twists are different from how they work in Burning Wheel and even Mouse Guard. In Mouse Guard you introduce a weather, terrain, mouse or animal complication. In Torchbearer a twist, from the Wandering Monster rules, might be getting stuck somewhere and tearing your backpack. That'd be pretty lame in BW/MG but Torchbearer's constant grind gives it teeth which I currently find unintuitive because of how subtle it is. My instincts all say "And now you've brought upon yourself this new thing!" or "I interpret your intent like an ironic genie!" and that's hard to do now.
I'm going to run Skogenby at a convention this weekend and see if I can attune myself better to it.
Consequences of failure on rolls wasn't what messed us up. That's pretty easy. Twist or condition, simple as that.
The problem I had was players trying to do things that didn't do anything and not running into the actual obstacles.
Take a look at room 4 in Skogenby, the chamber of Ablutions. It says that it is an Ob3 Theologian to figure out the purpose of the room. It's easy enough to figure out what to do if players make that roll, but they didn't. Nobody ever asked what the room was for. Should I have just forced them to make the test upon entering the room? Someone said they examined the tub, should I have then had them make the roll? They were examining the tub, not the room...
If they had made the test, they would have found out about the Ob3 ritual test they could have taken. But because they didn't know about the ritual, they simply started to worry about the specifics of interacting with the room. Mess with the water. Light the brazier. And it's like uh, ok. You do stuff and nothing happens? They even took the water without even asking if it was potable, so the Ob1 survivalist test to determine that was passed over.
How do you get the players to hit pre-scripted tests like that if they just start messing around with stuff in specific ways? I feel like I shouldn't be springing tests on people unless there is something going at them. If someone triggers a trap or is being cursed, then it's ok to force a test upon them as it's sort of like a saving throw. But if someone just walks into a room, is it ok to force them to test for knowledge of the room? I'm making them waste time, and shouldn't players have the choice not to waste time and just ignore the room and move on? It feels wrong to just force the turn counter to keep moving forward like that. Aren't turns a resource the players should manage?
How about doing things like searching for secret doors? If they say they search for secret doors in every room, should I make them roll and waste time in each room? If they succeed and there are not in fact any secret doors, should I create a secret door that did not exist? Or should I only make them test for finding secret doors if there are in fact secret doors. If I do that, then they'll just say they search for secret doors in every single room no matter what with no consequence when there aren't any.
Or what about narrating in things to use a wise. Alex tried to help with rune-wise by saying there were some runes on the wall, which was cool. But there weren't runes on the wall... He was trying to put runes where there weren't any runes. It didn't feel good to say no, there aren't runes there.
sounds like a very D&D situation, "you enter a room with strange inscriptions on the walls, Roll a knowledge religion test if you want to figure out what this room was used for".
sounds like a very D&D situation, "you enter a room with strange inscriptions on the walls, Roll a knowledge religion test if you want to figure out what this room was used for".
Yeah, but is it OK to force a roll like that when it will cost them time? If they don't ask what the room was for, shouldn't they be able to bypass that entirely?
sounds like a very D&D situation, "you enter a room with strange inscriptions on the walls, Roll a knowledge religion test if you want to figure out what this room was used for".
Yeah, but is it OK to force a roll like that when it will cost them time? If they don't ask what the room was for, shouldn't they be able to bypass that entirely?
When I ran AD&D, I always made a point to tell my players a bit more about a room if they had a skill related to it's contents, without them making a check.
Like, if a team of dumbasses breaks into the a temple, I just give them the "It's a 20x20 room with some shit on the walls and no monsters to stab, sorry." But if they have a Cleric or whatever, I'd add "You recognize the symbols as belonging to an ancient religion." They could then make the check if they wanted to.
Of course, when they failed a check, instead of telling them they failed, I'd just lie to them. Like, if they rolled a 15 and the critical info about the evil temple was DC20, I'd tell them everything up to DC10 ("It's a holy site for an old religion! They worshiped order and war! Those hooks once held tapestries!") and then be like "Oh, and you're pretty sure these guys loathed the undead." Then when they got skeleton'd in the next room, a bunch of old bones in priestly gear, they were like, "Somebody has disgraced this holy site!" instead of "Oh fuck, evil temple!"
How about doing things like searching for secret doors? If they say they search for secret doors in every room, should I make them roll and waste time in each room? If they succeed and there are not in fact any secret doors, should I create a secret door that did not exist? Or should I only make them test for finding secret doors if there are in fact secret doors. If I do that, then they'll just say they search for secret doors in every single room no matter what with no consequence when there aren't any.
Or what about narrating in things to use a wise. Alex tried to help with rune-wise by saying there were some runes on the wall, which was cool. But there weren't runes on the wall... He was trying to put runes where there weren't any runes. It didn't feel good to say no, there aren't runes there.
Here's what's tripping you up: the players need to describe an action that triggers a test, or there's no test. So if they want to know more about something, ask how they're finding out, determine if that's a test, and either make them test or give them the information. Likewise, their "I search the room" has the GM response, "Describe exactly what you're doing to search the room". If they don't describe anything that might trigger a discovery (especially if there's nothing there to be found), there's no roll and they don't find anything. If they don't describe how they're assessing the room's purpose, they don't learn anything about it.
It's kind of a gamble for the players when they describe what they're doing, because there might be a roll for it, and it might be for something they're not skilled in. In play, my players found out why the Leader role is important: to help keep time from being wasted by frivolous actions.
It's your job as GM to describe what's there with a cursory examination, what they immediately notice. That's what the boxed text is for. They can learn more by narrating their examination of the room, and so on. If there's no runes, there's no rune-wise.
Hmm, yeah I'm going to keep an eye out for how the test is triggered. Perhaps I'll ask directly "Are you trying to figure out what this is used for?"
In the adventure I ran the at a con a few weeks back my rooms all had really mundane uses like kitchens and bathrooms with bad stuff that had taken over. Skogenby is cool because it's got that weird history to it.
That's well and good. I can understand how that works, and I can see that's how the GMs at Burning Con were doing it. There's only one problem with that.
What if the players never bump into a test? Suddenly the game does not move forward. The players run out of ideas. They can't find anything. They can't figure anything out. They've gone everywhere, they've done everything, at least that they can think of. I can only move the game forward or give more info if they roll dice or ask the right questions.
Also, the aforementioned problem of the secret doors. If they only roll dice when the bump into a test, then they should search for secret doors in every single room no matter what. If there aren't any, then they'll be able to find out there aren't any without having to roll any dice or face any consequences. If there are some, they'll test for them.
Oh, here's another tricky one. A player tried to help with burial-wise. The thing they were examining was in fact burial related, but they didn't know that. At least they didn't know it yet. By even allowing the burial wise, you are giving up the ghost. But why shouldn't you allow it? The thing is indeed burial related!
When I played at Burning Con, we searched for secret doors in every room.
Most of the time, the game master said "there are no secret doors." No test was required.
Sometimes, the GM said "There is a secret door here" and reveal it to us. (The secret door was itself trapped, and that was when a test came up).
Sometimes, the GM said "It takes a long time to search such a large room, but [die roll/turn expended/test failed] you eventually find a hidden trap door. Your angry that you wasted so much time."
Ok, so you just search in every room, and there is no way to give a twist or condition unless there is indeed a door. There's no way to roll, use a turn, take a test if there's no door to find.
Oh, here's another tricky one. A player tried to help with burial-wise. The thing they were examining was in fact burial related, but they didn't know that. At least they didn't know it yet. By even allowing the burial wise, you are giving up the ghost. But why shouldn't you allow it? The thing is indeed burial related!
They ask, "Can I help with burial-wise?" and you say "Yes". If they're successful or you give them a condition, then you'll tell them more than "Yeah, it's burial related", right?
Ok, so you just search in every room, and there is no way to give a twist or condition unless there is indeed a door. There's no way to roll, use a turn, take a test if there's no door to find.
Yeah, they should move on. If they're stumped or they don't care, let them move on.
Skogenby provides an explicit list of Wandering Monsters for the twists—make more Tomb Guardians show up, etc. If they took the silver arm ring with them, then Haathor-Vash will eventually try to possess them, which should be fantastic. There's plenty of things to investigate if they're curious. If they're not curious, then maybe this game isn't for them?
They were very curious. They just didn't do anything that bumped into the obstacles. They also did a bunch of things that were questionable whether or not they bumped into the obstacles, and I probably handled it poorly.
For example, I already talked about examining the tub. Does that count as bumping into the Ob 3 Theologian test to determine the purpose of the room?
Another time Alex was examining the sarcophagus. He was not specifically looking for traps, he was looking for signs of it being recently opened. I made him bump into the test to detect traps on it anyway, and he saw the trap. Was that wrong?
Also, they decided to check for tracks. They went all the way back to the opening of the dungeon (with their map) and did the test for tracks that was described in the document. Then they wanted to know where the tracks led inside the dungeon. There's no let it ride in Torchbearer, but it felt wrong to test again for the same thing. But then again, it would make sense that the tracks would go to the secret door. But I didn't want to give the secret door away by letting them effectively use the outdoor tracking test as an automatic way past the test to find the secret door. Maybe I should have just said the tracks lead into the sarcophagus room and then disappear.
As for twists, yeah, they are easy. But someone has to roll and fail for there to be a twist! The characters wandered all about the dungeon trying all sorts of things, but somehow never touching upon any of the actual obstacles. I did eventually make Rym get possessed by Haathor-Vash. I feel bad about it because it wasn't a twist. I just made it happen out of nowhere. I don't think that's quite right.
They decided to enter into an abjuration conflict, which was cool, but weird. They lost, but got a minor compromise. What kind of minor compromise do you get from losing this kind of conflict? In the end we decided that Rym was released from being possessed, but the party was driven from the dungeon screaming. There were some other details in there like what weapons do you use in that kind of conflict?
Comments
My biweekly group is doing the House of the Three Squires adventure from the book. I kind of wish Skogenby had been out earlier; I would have started there.
I think I'd prefer running it over my written scenario just for that fact that the players are first timers too and the Skogenby has a clear direction, is accomplishable in one session, and has some fine instructional moments built in.
The players made up for any punishment they got by knocking my Chiropteran out in the first round of a trick conflict at the end of session two. Also one person will hit level two - that is if they can get back to town. Right now there is an Otyugh in their way who will only accept shit for the toll.
But if you're interested in having Coach McMagic from Spellman High on your team then I am ready and willing. He took the team to state 8 years ago but has since become a drunk reminiscing of old glories.
Alternatively, anyone interested in a PST hangout? I'm even willing to GM.
I'm going to run Skogenby at a convention this weekend and see if I can attune myself better to it.
The problem I had was players trying to do things that didn't do anything and not running into the actual obstacles.
Take a look at room 4 in Skogenby, the chamber of Ablutions. It says that it is an Ob3 Theologian to figure out the purpose of the room. It's easy enough to figure out what to do if players make that roll, but they didn't. Nobody ever asked what the room was for. Should I have just forced them to make the test upon entering the room? Someone said they examined the tub, should I have then had them make the roll? They were examining the tub, not the room...
If they had made the test, they would have found out about the Ob3 ritual test they could have taken. But because they didn't know about the ritual, they simply started to worry about the specifics of interacting with the room. Mess with the water. Light the brazier. And it's like uh, ok. You do stuff and nothing happens? They even took the water without even asking if it was potable, so the Ob1 survivalist test to determine that was passed over.
How do you get the players to hit pre-scripted tests like that if they just start messing around with stuff in specific ways? I feel like I shouldn't be springing tests on people unless there is something going at them. If someone triggers a trap or is being cursed, then it's ok to force a test upon them as it's sort of like a saving throw. But if someone just walks into a room, is it ok to force them to test for knowledge of the room? I'm making them waste time, and shouldn't players have the choice not to waste time and just ignore the room and move on? It feels wrong to just force the turn counter to keep moving forward like that. Aren't turns a resource the players should manage?
How about doing things like searching for secret doors? If they say they search for secret doors in every room, should I make them roll and waste time in each room? If they succeed and there are not in fact any secret doors, should I create a secret door that did not exist? Or should I only make them test for finding secret doors if there are in fact secret doors. If I do that, then they'll just say they search for secret doors in every single room no matter what with no consequence when there aren't any.
Or what about narrating in things to use a wise. Alex tried to help with rune-wise by saying there were some runes on the wall, which was cool. But there weren't runes on the wall... He was trying to put runes where there weren't any runes. It didn't feel good to say no, there aren't runes there.
Like, if a team of dumbasses breaks into the a temple, I just give them the "It's a 20x20 room with some shit on the walls and no monsters to stab, sorry." But if they have a Cleric or whatever, I'd add "You recognize the symbols as belonging to an ancient religion." They could then make the check if they wanted to.
Of course, when they failed a check, instead of telling them they failed, I'd just lie to them. Like, if they rolled a 15 and the critical info about the evil temple was DC20, I'd tell them everything up to DC10 ("It's a holy site for an old religion! They worshiped order and war! Those hooks once held tapestries!") and then be like "Oh, and you're pretty sure these guys loathed the undead." Then when they got skeleton'd in the next room, a bunch of old bones in priestly gear, they were like, "Somebody has disgraced this holy site!" instead of "Oh fuck, evil temple!"
It's kind of a gamble for the players when they describe what they're doing, because there might be a roll for it, and it might be for something they're not skilled in. In play, my players found out why the Leader role is important: to help keep time from being wasted by frivolous actions.
It's your job as GM to describe what's there with a cursory examination, what they immediately notice. That's what the boxed text is for. They can learn more by narrating their examination of the room, and so on. If there's no runes, there's no rune-wise.
In the adventure I ran the at a con a few weeks back my rooms all had really mundane uses like kitchens and bathrooms with bad stuff that had taken over. Skogenby is cool because it's got that weird history to it.
What if the players never bump into a test? Suddenly the game does not move forward. The players run out of ideas. They can't find anything. They can't figure anything out. They've gone everywhere, they've done everything, at least that they can think of. I can only move the game forward or give more info if they roll dice or ask the right questions.
Also, the aforementioned problem of the secret doors. If they only roll dice when the bump into a test, then they should search for secret doors in every single room no matter what. If there aren't any, then they'll be able to find out there aren't any without having to roll any dice or face any consequences. If there are some, they'll test for them.
Most of the time, the game master said "there are no secret doors." No test was required.
Sometimes, the GM said "There is a secret door here" and reveal it to us. (The secret door was itself trapped, and that was when a test came up).
Sometimes, the GM said "It takes a long time to search such a large room, but [die roll/turn expended/test failed] you eventually find a hidden trap door. Your angry that you wasted so much time."
Skogenby provides an explicit list of Wandering Monsters for the twists—make more Tomb Guardians show up, etc. If they took the silver arm ring with them, then Haathor-Vash will eventually try to possess them, which should be fantastic. There's plenty of things to investigate if they're curious. If they're not curious, then maybe this game isn't for them?
For example, I already talked about examining the tub. Does that count as bumping into the Ob 3 Theologian test to determine the purpose of the room?
Another time Alex was examining the sarcophagus. He was not specifically looking for traps, he was looking for signs of it being recently opened. I made him bump into the test to detect traps on it anyway, and he saw the trap. Was that wrong?
Also, they decided to check for tracks. They went all the way back to the opening of the dungeon (with their map) and did the test for tracks that was described in the document. Then they wanted to know where the tracks led inside the dungeon. There's no let it ride in Torchbearer, but it felt wrong to test again for the same thing. But then again, it would make sense that the tracks would go to the secret door. But I didn't want to give the secret door away by letting them effectively use the outdoor tracking test as an automatic way past the test to find the secret door. Maybe I should have just said the tracks lead into the sarcophagus room and then disappear.
As for twists, yeah, they are easy. But someone has to roll and fail for there to be a twist! The characters wandered all about the dungeon trying all sorts of things, but somehow never touching upon any of the actual obstacles. I did eventually make Rym get possessed by Haathor-Vash. I feel bad about it because it wasn't a twist. I just made it happen out of nowhere. I don't think that's quite right.
They decided to enter into an abjuration conflict, which was cool, but weird. They lost, but got a minor compromise. What kind of minor compromise do you get from losing this kind of conflict? In the end we decided that Rym was released from being possessed, but the party was driven from the dungeon screaming. There were some other details in there like what weapons do you use in that kind of conflict?