The Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard and D&D5E

Marduk

Hi, guys! This is my first post I joined just so I can discuss/ask about this...

I got my D&D5e starter set at about the time I saw the "BEYOND DUNGEONS & DRAGONS" video with Scott & Rym. (I only saw the video in the last few weeks. I couldn't help but notice some similarities between 2 of the games they described; The Burning Wheel and Mouse Guard the RPG (both created by the same team http://www.burningwheel.org/).

MY QUESTION IS, does anybody think that D&D5E might have had some influence from either of the other mentioned RPGs? Or even from Scott & Rym's lecture? Even slightly (IE, as much as they can without changing too much of the classic mechanics)?

Mouse Guard has checks, 5E has Inspiration points, both of which are earned by role-playing in accordance with the facts listed on the role player's sheet (which have drastically improved from the version Scott highlighted in his slide show in PAX Australia where the only personality defining factor on the sheet was race). (I'd explain checks and inspiration points but I'm sure anybody who clicked this thread already knows but, besides how they're earned, they're not too relevant to this discussion).

The similarity to Burning Wheel came on the character sheet. (I have since downloaded the free PDF of the BW rules but I haven't read much, yet). Each PreGen character's back story, not to mention their other personality traits, in the starter set are closely related to the story module ("The Lost Mines of Phandelver"). This definitely put me in mind of what was described of TBW character sheets in the "Beyond D&D" lecture.

In fact Scott showed a slide of the D&D character sheet in that talk with all the parts of the character sheet that affect role play within the game (it was basically just "Race")

(The 5E character sheets are available here, btw, including the PreGens from the Starter Kit; http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/character_sheets )

Apreche

I don't know anything about D&D 5E because I haven't read or played it. It is unlikely I will do either any time in the near future.

Rym

I plan to read the books at least.

One thing that's interesting is just how large the team is putting the game together. It's a huge team full of various groups working on different aspects of the game. They were definitely worried about character class balance primarily from what I can glean.

Wyatt

It has aspects of BW/MG, but it's diluted down. Characters have always had a back story and goals. Now they're just making it part of the game. It's by no mean the focus of the system.

pence

Regardless of how the playtest shook out (it was uninspiring), the final product is my favorite D&D rulebook. I don't think there was inspiration specifically drawn from Burning Wheel, but there is general inspiration from post-90s RPGs.

The advantage/disadvantage mechanic is just fun (Roll 2d20 and take the highest/lowest). The rules give the DM leeway to hand out advantage and disadvantage as they see fit, and I've been enjoying that a lot. Combat isn't a chore (Combat is ten pages in the PHB - that's it). Backgrounds are all kinds of awesome, and it feels like you can sit down and play something that you rolled randomly and have a good time. Compared to MG/BW, Inspiration is fuzzy. Probably intentionally so.

"Your DM can choose to give you inspiration for a variety of reasons. Typically, DMs award it when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way. Your DM will tell you how you can earn inspiration in the game... Additionally, if you have inspiration, you can reward another player for good roleplaying, clever thinking, or simply doing something exciting in the game. When another player character does something that really contributes to the story in a fun and interesting way, you can give up your inspiration to give that character inspiration."

It's smart that you can't stockpile inspiration - you either have it, or you don't. Inspiration gets spent to give you advantage on a check. It feels more like a Fate point (from FATE) rather than Artha (from BW).

Marduk

I was surprised at the final character sheet and the inspiration system as neither had appeared in the play test as far as I remember.

Wyatt said:

It has aspects of BW/MG, but it's diluted down. Characters have always had a back story and goals. Now they're just making it part of the game. It's by no mean the focus of the system.

Of course. Doesnt it make sense that they'd cherry pick ideas they like and try to incorporate them in such a way as they don't heavily infringe on established, traditional rules? The points raised in the talk were that very few of the rules pertain to RP; pretty much all of it is devoted to the system of combat. Now there's a whole chapter in the PHB devoted to your character's back story. The character sheet isn't just about combat alone, at least a third on the front page is is about his or her personality and history.

I'm hope they keep this up in the DMG and have a chapter on how to run a story around player characters and their own stories.

I'm not going to bet the barn on the idea that 5E was inspired by these games, just wondering who, if anyone, saw parallels and thought there might (however unlikely) be some connection.

After all, you guys (Scott, Rym) did say that you gave the first rendition of the "BEYOND D&D" talk right after a D&D panel. I can't help but wonder if some of the previous panelists had remained and watched, because it seemed they drew from 2 of the games you gave special emphasis to. I'd be amused if that was the case

GroverBomb

These systems aren't isolated, and game designers tend to run in circles with each other since it's a relatively small and internet-y field. An open exchange of ideas, whether or not things are incorporated or liked/disliked, whatever. They talk about each other's games, and sometimes play each other's games. I mean, Mike Mearls was on a panel with Luke Crane at Pax East earlier this year. Then again, if you listen to Mike Mearls you'll learn that he takes just as much influence from other p&p games as he does from observing video games. It's all in the blender, I'm sure, though I haven't played 5E.

Something Vincent Baker posted about over on Google+ recently which may help give you an overview: http://www.blackgreengames.com/lcn/2014/10/2/theory-roundup

Wyatt

GroverBomb said:

These systems aren't isolated, and game designers tend to run in circles with each other since it's a relatively small and internet-y field...

This.

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Basic Game is a polished themed up version of Danger Patrol.

okeefe

The 5e designers borrowed ideas from other contemporary, well-designed games. I see more echoes of Fate Core and Dungeon World than Burning Wheel, in particular. Having only read the free Basic rules, it feels more like a better-designed successor to 2e with carefully chosen elements of 3e and 4e.

I'm holding out for pdfs; I don't want the books. 5e looks interesting, but I'm knee-deep in retroclone D&Ds at the moment. Dungeon Crawl Classics is next.

Wyatt said:

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Basic Game is a polished themed up version of Danger Patrol.

MH has its own pedigree from the other Cortex Plus games, more so than Danger Patrol.

pence

I completely agree with Tresi's assessment. Low level 5e has been very pick up and play friendly. We've been playing with a stack of notecards to represent dungeon locations and it's worked fine.