Mate, out of nowhere you suddenly went out of your mind and started raving at people. Before that, I can't even really see anyone disagreeing with you. A few people ask questions, or express preferences for different games, but nobody said you're wrong, or really disagreed.
I like you, as you actually read and intelligently present counter points, but before I list my problems with the Western VN industry as you asked me to, I want to correct you on this point. Apreche seemingly expressed interest, and then when I went out of the way to do some brief research on a franchise he asked about, he basically confessed to trolling me by commenting, "That's great for people who need a husbando, but what about people who need waifus?". Then there were a two other people who intentionally provided troll-bate. Although I wasn't too bothered by them, more by Apreche.
The natural assumption that the Japanese VNs are better because they're Japanese VNs? You're the expert, you want to give us your opinion, or facts if you've got them. Don't just cut and run like a punk, educate. Knowledge is like tea, best shared, don't go leaving us in the dark, here.
If you're serious then I honestly won't hesitate.
Here are several huge problems with Western produced VNs (warning lots of text):
1) They try to be like "Japanese" VN's but end up being a hollow shell. Specifically they use cliche's that are common in subpar Japanese VNs, and assume that's what fans of Japanese VNs want. The infamous Sakura Spririt being a prime example. However, this problem even extends to some of the better Western produced VNs like Katawa Shoujo. For example Katawa shoujo's setting is in Japan, even though there is a hardly anything Japanese about it. Furthermore the developers included sex scenes, because that's what they thought VN readers would want. It is true that many plot and character based Japanese VNs do have a few sex scenes, but this is because they have to for their market. Japanese VNs that don't have an 18+ label sell worse, in Japan. So developers often include awkward sex scenes to appease the Japanese audience. But if you're a western developer, you don't have this same shackle on you. You also don't have to be a dating sim or a highschool setting. In fact many mistake dating sims to be synonymous with VNs, they are not! In recent history, Hunie-pop made this same mistake. Bascially, most Western VNs make the mistake of copying the bad aspects of Japanese VNs, and this actually makes them less appealing to Hardcore fans since the Japanese can do this stuff way better anyway. If you want porn, the Japanese can do this better, if you want a dating sim, the japanese can do this better, if you want a Japanese setting, the Japanese obviously can do this better. Western developers should seek to tell their own stories, and bridged away from the chains that Japanese developers have.
2) This is a more general problem, but this relates back to what I said before; Western developers tend to be ill-read. Yes, you should avoid applying some of the cliches of Japaense VNs, but you should imitate what they do well. If you are ill-read, you are more likely to copy the bad stuff, and not recognize the subtly of the good points. For example, there are different ways to present the story other than the standard textbox method. Narcissu, and Swan Song both utilize unconventional textual presentations. Quartett also has quite a unique approach. Western developers need to know that works, what doesn't work, and how they should change things to best present their story.
3) Simply, most western VNs don't have the budget to compete with Japanese VNs, and because they are often ill-read they don't know of how some of the most popular Japanese VNs became successful despite a lack-luster budget. Tsukihime, Hirgurashi, both had horrendous art. What saved them, is that they had interesting writing style and premises. Tsukihime is freaking about a guy who can literally see threads of death, and if he cuts them, the person they are attached to will die. If you don't have the money, than tell a truly interesting story. In other words, emphasize the writing and story. Narcissu was independently made and released for free. The creator of Narcissu said in his notes, he experimented with a minimalist presentation in order to emphasize his writing. Ryukishi07 (creator of Higurashi) once said in an interview, that he studied KEY and the successful VNs of his time, and tried to copy what worked well. In other words, research is important.
4) Most Great Visual novels are more books than games. Most people (though not all) that are avidly a part of this hobby are more interested in character and story than gameplay. An epic story > epic gameplay. The word Novel is in Visual Novel for a reason.
I like you, as you actually read and intelligently present counter points, but before I list my problems with the Western VN industry as you asked me to, I want to correct you on this point. Apreche seemingly expressed interest, and then when I went out of the way to do some brief research on a franchise he asked about, he basically confessed to trolling me by commenting, "That's great for people who need a husbando, but what about people who need waifus?". Then there were a two other people who intentionally provided troll-bate. Although I wasn't too bothered by them, more by Apreche.
I think you have a serious misapprehension about the dynamic of this forum. I can tell you, with confidence, that not a single one of the posts so far in this thread were intended as "trolling".
Visual novels? You mean those pervert games from Japan?
Nope, this isn't trolling, it's just open_sketchbook. To the best of my knowledge, he is physically unable to communicate via anything but sarcasm and irony.
And to the rest of you insincerely humoring me, I thought people here would at least be open minded enough to consider a different view.
Nope, you're completely off-base. I'm assuming you're referring to Apreche (Scott) here, but I can tell you with confidence that he was not insincerely humouring you. Scott just doesn't do that sort of thing. If he didn't care at all, he would just ignore you; he's a very straightforward kind of guy. Now, Rym, on the other hand, has indeed been known to insincerely humour people; he's a sly one...
Had you taken the time to consider your audience here, you might have had much better results. Instead, you came out and pigeonholed the entire forum with comments like this one:
I hope you at least walk way understanding that not all Visual Novels are porn games!
As TheWhaleShark has said already, you were being rather condescending here. The result is, therefore, hardly surprising; everyone simply rejected your condescending premise and continued the discussion on their own terms.
Visual novels? You mean those pervert games from Japan?
Nope, this isn't trolling, it's just open_sketchbook. To the best of my knowledge, he is physically unable to communicate via anything but sarcasm and irony.
Also, I'm pretty sure Rym has said almost exactly these words in an episode, and that's how I know what visual novels are.
Had you taken the time to consider your audience here, you might have had much better results. Instead, you came out and pigeonholed the entire forum with comments like this one:
I hope you at least walk way understanding that not all Visual Novels are porn games!
As TheWhaleShark has said already, you were being rather condescending here. The result is, therefore, hardly surprising; everyone simply rejected your condescending premise and continued the discussion on their own terms.
By way of further elaboration, and to try to answer this question of Churba's:
Seems to me that you were going pretty well, until you suddenly went apeshit for reasons I'm genuinely struggling to figure out.
I think the issue is that Zalor has an ingrained stereotype of "Western gamers"; when he didn't get the response to his post that he was hoping for, he decided it that the issue must be that we here at the FRCF fall under the same stereotype, and are too "closed-minded" to appreciate his words. Seems like a clear-cut case of the ultimate attribution error to me. Instead of realising that the replies he's gotten are a product of other factors such as how the FRCF works, as well as the tone and presentation of his initial post, he wrote the responses off as people simply being closed-minded.
By the way, just to clear up another misapprehension you seem to have, Zalor: this thread does not belong to you. It is now the "Visual Novels and anything else that happens to be tangentially related, and sometimes other stuff that is unrelated too" thread, not the "Let's discuss Zalor's opinions on Visual Novels" thread. That's how it works around here. It is not required, nor expected, that people read the entire thread, or even the opening post of the thread, before they post in the thread. Sometimes people read the title and roll with it, and then sometimes I see posts that seem to come from people who don't seem to have read the thread title either...
Mate, out of nowhere you suddenly went out of your mind and started raving at people. Before that, I can't even really see anyone disagreeing with you. A few people ask questions, or express preferences for different games, but nobody said you're wrong, or really disagreed.
I like you, as you actually read and intelligently present counter points, but before I list my problems with the Western VN industry as you asked me to, I want to correct you on this point.
Another thing, Zalor: Churba's giving you a lot of respect here. He could've given you a right monstering, but I can tell he really put the kid gloves on for you. I'm sure plenty of people around here will be jealous of how Churba-senpai noticed you ^_~
Visual novels? You mean those pervert games from Japan?
Nope, this isn't trolling, it's just open_sketchbook. To the best of my knowledge, he is physically unable to communicate via anything but sarcasm and irony.
I've struggled with this condition my whole life. I'm glad people are understanding.
I'm a grown-ass man. If I want pie and ice cream for dinner, then that's my dinner.
Of course you can have pie and 'cream thats normal. But just popcorn? Nah you need to put some peas and cheese on that then you have a meal.
Peas, IN MY POPCORN? What is this malarkey?
I kid, I kid. The times when my parents had a tighter budget my dad would do cheese popcorn with a protein cut and fried small, it was a strange combination but it worked somehow.
I like you, as you actually read and intelligently present counter points, but before I list my problems with the Western VN industry as you asked me to, I want to correct you on this point. Apreche seemingly expressed interest, and then when I went out of the way to do some brief research on a franchise he asked about, he basically confessed to trolling me by commenting, "That's great for people who need a husbando, but what about people who need waifus?". Then there were a two other people who intentionally provided troll-bate. Although I wasn't too bothered by them, more by Apreche.
Trust me, it's gentle joshing. Nobody's going to tear into you unless you really give them a reason, around here. The reason might sometimes be a bit odd, but there's still usually a reason. I understand that as a niche hobby, discussions about VNs outside of strictly enthusiast communities might get trolled, but you're pretty safe around here for that sort of thing.
I'm being entirely serious. You know things I/we don't know, and that means there's something to be learned here. I'll even be back with more questions when I'm not posting from my phone.
Another thing, Zalor: Churba's giving you a lot of respect here. He could've given you a right monstering, but I can tell he really put the kid gloves on for you. I'm sure plenty of people around here will be jealous of how Churba-senpai noticed you ^_~
And they're not even the ones that are made from real kids.
But anyway, see what I mean? Everybody gets joked about.
I think the issue is that Zalor has an ingrained stereotype of "Western gamers"; when he didn't get the response to his post that he was hoping for, he decided it that the issue must be that we here at the FRCF fall under the same stereotype, and are too "closed-minded" to appreciate his words. Seems like a clear-cut case of the ultimate attribution error to me.
Now that I've slept on it, I can say you are completely right. Most of this was a huge misunderstanding on my part, and I do apologize for that. As someone said earlier, I do remember Rym at least once dismissing Visual Novels as porn games, so I sort of assumed that was the general concusses in this community. But as you pointed out by mentioning ultimate attribution, that was dumb thing to do. Also, I was the one who first lashed out and I'm sorry for that (that too was a dumb and overly emotional thing to do).
By the way, just to clear up another misapprehension you seem to have, Zalor: this thread does not belong to you. It is now the "Visual Novels and anything else that happens to be tangentially related, and sometimes other stuff that is unrelated too" thread, not the "Let's discuss Zalor's opinions on Visual Novels" thread. That's how it works around here. It is not required, nor expected, that people read the entire thread, or even the opening post of the thread,
See, that's another huge misunderstanding I had. I posted this here, because I did want to discuss this rather niche medium for once with a more casual audience (or rather, a non-otaku one). But I did so with the expectation that the discussion would go the same way as it would in a strictly Otaku focused community. I can only explain this stupid miscalculation by saying that on the internet at least, I am mostly in contact with other otaku and have relatively little exposure to western geek communities. That's not an excuse for my inappropriate reactions, just an explanation.
Regarding my behavior, that's all I have to say. I was in the wrong, I was the one who made paranoid misunderstandings, and I lashed out first. To those still reading this thread, I do sincerely apologize for that. If by nature of this site this thread will turn into the general purpose "VN thread", then I hope I haven't tainted it too much. ;p Also, despite what I angrily typed before, I keep coming back. So hopefully people can forgive and forget, as the saying goes.
We're pretty forgiving, overall. It helps to make an effort to engage the community, rather than to dictate from on high. Your writing style so far is not what I'd call "conversational" - if I had to guess, I'd say you blog a fair bit about your thoughts and are generally accustomed to an essay-centric style of communication.
Which can work around here, but it's generally more palatable to break up an essay by provoking a discussion, rather than just leading with all the text.
Believe me, we read walls of text. We like these things. You just have to catch our interest first, and do it without condescension.
Also, Rym dismisses a lot of things out of hand. You might think that the community follows in step, but I'd wager the majority of us on this board don't even listen to Geeknights anymore. The community long ago evolved into its own entity.
Also, Rym dismisses a lot of things out of hand. You might think that the community follows in step, but I'd wager the majority of us on this board don't even listen to Geeknights anymore. The community long ago evolved into its own entity.
In this case, I "dismiss" VNs out of hand as porn because it's funny. I've given lectures on VNs and how great they are/can be. ;^)
It all came out of my last trip to Singapore. I was explaining what I do re: games and Date Nighto, and as soon as I said "visual novel" a gentleman I was talking to said "those Asian fuck games?"
I've been calling them "Asian Fuck Games" ever since.
You should definitely start a VN studio called "AFG." Never officially publish the meaning of the acronym, and allow the community to come up with their own crazy explanations.
It's too late, now. There's documentary evidence on the internet.
The first time I encountered the term "visual novel" was the Silent Hill visual novel on GBA. I played as much as I could, because there was no translation patch at the time, but my familiarity with the story only got me up through the elementary school.
Now that I've slept on it, I can say you are completely right. Most of this was a huge misunderstanding on my part, and I do apologize for that.
[...]
Regarding my behavior, that's all I have to say. I was in the wrong, I was the one who made paranoid misunderstandings, and I lashed out first. To those still reading this thread, I do sincerely apologize for that. If by nature of this site this thread will turn into the general purpose "VN thread", then I hope I haven't tainted it too much. ;p Also, despite what I angrily typed before, I keep coming back. So hopefully people can forgive and forget, as the saying goes.
I think you deserve plenty of credit for having the ability to introspect and recognize where your own biases have led you wrong. Generally speaking, that is not an easy thing to do.
It's good to have you here with us, Zalor. I know you'll like it here in our FRCF ivory tower.
He wasn't a heckler. He was a really creepy dude. He comes to that panel EVERY TIME I DO IT. Even at different cons. Every 18+ panelist knows him as "that creepy dude with the hat". I've had him pulled out of line a couple of times because he is such a disturbance.
Comments
Here are several huge problems with Western produced VNs (warning lots of text):
1) They try to be like "Japanese" VN's but end up being a hollow shell. Specifically they use cliche's that are common in subpar Japanese VNs, and assume that's what fans of Japanese VNs want. The infamous Sakura Spririt being a prime example. However, this problem even extends to some of the better Western produced VNs like Katawa Shoujo. For example Katawa shoujo's setting is in Japan, even though there is a hardly anything Japanese about it. Furthermore the developers included sex scenes, because that's what they thought VN readers would want. It is true that many plot and character based Japanese VNs do have a few sex scenes, but this is because they have to for their market. Japanese VNs that don't have an 18+ label sell worse, in Japan. So developers often include awkward sex scenes to appease the Japanese audience. But if you're a western developer, you don't have this same shackle on you. You also don't have to be a dating sim or a highschool setting. In fact many mistake dating sims to be synonymous with VNs, they are not! In recent history, Hunie-pop made this same mistake. Bascially, most Western VNs make the mistake of copying the bad aspects of Japanese VNs, and this actually makes them less appealing to Hardcore fans since the Japanese can do this stuff way better anyway. If you want porn, the Japanese can do this better, if you want a dating sim, the japanese can do this better, if you want a Japanese setting, the Japanese obviously can do this better. Western developers should seek to tell their own stories, and bridged away from the chains that Japanese developers have.
2) This is a more general problem, but this relates back to what I said before; Western developers tend to be ill-read. Yes, you should avoid applying some of the cliches of Japaense VNs, but you should imitate what they do well. If you are ill-read, you are more likely to copy the bad stuff, and not recognize the subtly of the good points. For example, there are different ways to present the story other than the standard textbox method. Narcissu, and Swan Song both utilize unconventional textual presentations. Quartett also has quite a unique approach. Western developers need to know that works, what doesn't work, and how they should change things to best present their story.
3) Simply, most western VNs don't have the budget to compete with Japanese VNs, and because they are often ill-read they don't know of how some of the most popular Japanese VNs became successful despite a lack-luster budget. Tsukihime, Hirgurashi, both had horrendous art. What saved them, is that they had interesting writing style and premises. Tsukihime is freaking about a guy who can literally see threads of death, and if he cuts them, the person they are attached to will die. If you don't have the money, than tell a truly interesting story. In other words, emphasize the writing and story. Narcissu was independently made and released for free. The creator of Narcissu said in his notes, he experimented with a minimalist presentation in order to emphasize his writing. Ryukishi07 (creator of Higurashi) once said in an interview, that he studied KEY and the successful VNs of his time, and tried to copy what worked well. In other words, research is important.
4) Most Great Visual novels are more books than games. Most people (though not all) that are avidly a part of this hobby are more interested in character and story than gameplay. An epic story > epic gameplay. The word Novel is in Visual Novel for a reason.
Had you taken the time to consider your audience here, you might have had much better results. Instead, you came out and pigeonholed the entire forum with comments like this one: As TheWhaleShark has said already, you were being rather condescending here. The result is, therefore, hardly surprising; everyone simply rejected your condescending premise and continued the discussion on their own terms.
By the way, just to clear up another misapprehension you seem to have, Zalor: this thread does not belong to you. It is now the "Visual Novels and anything else that happens to be tangentially related, and sometimes other stuff that is unrelated too" thread, not the "Let's discuss Zalor's opinions on Visual Novels" thread. That's how it works around here. It is not required, nor expected, that people read the entire thread, or even the opening post of the thread, before they post in the thread. Sometimes people read the title and roll with it, and then sometimes I see posts that seem to come from people who don't seem to have read the thread title either... Another thing, Zalor: Churba's giving you a lot of respect here. He could've given you a right monstering, but I can tell he really put the kid gloves on for you. I'm sure plenty of people around here will be jealous of how Churba-senpai noticed you ^_~
</ FRCF-splaining>
I kid, I kid. The times when my parents had a tighter budget my dad would do cheese popcorn with a protein cut and fried small, it was a strange combination but it worked somehow.
But anyway, see what I mean? Everybody gets joked about.
Now that I've slept on it, I can say you are completely right. Most of this was a huge misunderstanding on my part, and I do apologize for that. As someone said earlier, I do remember Rym at least once dismissing Visual Novels as porn games, so I sort of assumed that was the general concusses in this community. But as you pointed out by mentioning ultimate attribution, that was dumb thing to do. Also, I was the one who first lashed out and I'm sorry for that (that too was a dumb and overly emotional thing to do). See, that's another huge misunderstanding I had. I posted this here, because I did want to discuss this rather niche medium for once with a more casual audience (or rather, a non-otaku one). But I did so with the expectation that the discussion would go the same way as it would in a strictly Otaku focused community. I can only explain this stupid miscalculation by saying that on the internet at least, I am mostly in contact with other otaku and have relatively little exposure to western geek communities. That's not an excuse for my inappropriate reactions, just an explanation.
Regarding my behavior, that's all I have to say. I was in the wrong, I was the one who made paranoid misunderstandings, and I lashed out first. To those still reading this thread, I do sincerely apologize for that. If by nature of this site this thread will turn into the general purpose "VN thread", then I hope I haven't tainted it too much. ;p Also, despite what I angrily typed before, I keep coming back. So hopefully people can forgive and forget, as the saying goes.
Which can work around here, but it's generally more palatable to break up an essay by provoking a discussion, rather than just leading with all the text.
Believe me, we read walls of text. We like these things. You just have to catch our interest first, and do it without condescension.
Also, Rym dismisses a lot of things out of hand. You might think that the community follows in step, but I'd wager the majority of us on this board don't even listen to Geeknights anymore. The community long ago evolved into its own entity.
It all came out of my last trip to Singapore. I was explaining what I do re: games and Date Nighto, and as soon as I said "visual novel" a gentleman I was talking to said "those Asian fuck games?"
I've been calling them "Asian Fuck Games" ever since.
The first time I encountered the term "visual novel" was the Silent Hill visual novel on GBA. I played as much as I could, because there was no translation patch at the time, but my familiarity with the story only got me up through the elementary school.
Most of my recent experience is from watching episodes of Game Center CX, like Kamaitachi no Yoru / Night of the Sickle Weasel
I'm asking for a friend.
Or is it like this guy?
You play a mysterious Pilot who has transferred into Miles High School and you must romance a variety of sentient airplanes.
the second one?
It's good to have you here with us, Zalor. I know you'll like it here in our FRCF ivory tower.
These are the kinds of small cute projects I want to make a million happen.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/datenighto/hustle-cat-a-visual-novel-about-a-magical-cat-cafe