I will say that I still prefer the dubs to subs for basically any anime I experienced in the late 80s through entire 90s only because to me, those are the definitive versions based only on the fact that I saw them first without prior experience with subbed or original versions. So that applies to like, for example, Project A-ko, or Sailor Moon (even as bad as that DiC dub was, THAT'S Serena's (not Usagi's!) voice, darn it!!
I still enjoy the Sailor Moon re-release because there was so much left out of the DiC version and it's like a whole new show, but the voice acting and changed names still feel odd to me. Sailor moon, though, is probably THE classic example of a sub-par dub that's inferior to subtitles. Not only is the dialog significantly changed along with character's names and sometimes personalities, but whole chunks of the show are left out as well.
You realize that by living in the USA you have the luxury of seeing most movies without subtitles because Hollywood is in the USA. Hollywood movies are the only ones that consistently get major worldwide releases. Only really big blockbuster movies get dubbed in other countries. The middle and lower tier movies get subtitles. People who are not in the US are very very used to watching things with subtitles and English audio. They would not even blink at the idea that their own films were subtitled in other countries.
Also, can you point to any actual concrete example of subtitles covering up important visuals in a movie? Professionally done subtitles are done in such a way as to avoid covering up important things. Notice how you could only come up with a hypothetical situation of subtitles ruining something. It is very hard to find an actual real example of something that is ruined by properly done subtitles. Meanwhile, I can point out numerous works other than Utena which were ruined by bad dubbing.
I would also like to point out that if you were to take any film class at any film school studying foreign film, they would never ever screen a dub. Even when a dub was available they would screen the film with subtitles without even thinking or discussing it. Groups like Criterion Collection only publish foreign films with subtitles, no dubs. The sub/dub debate is something that really only happens in unacademic communities, like anime fandom. Amongst film scholars subs are just taken for granted. There is no debate. Much like there is no debate about global warming amongst climate scientists, but only amongst anti-intellectuals.
Also, I deny your claim that somehow the visual aspect is more important than the audio aspect of film, television, or any other A/V medium. Remove the music from Star Wars, and it's garbage. Replace the music with the hamster dance, and it's a joke. Meanwhile, you can listen to the Star Wars soundtrack without the movie and it's still a masterpiece.
The importance of the visual and audible aspects of a film, respectively, are dependent on the work. How about that Initial D dub with the replaced music?
Also, everyone seems to have completely ignored the main point. It does not matter if an adaptation makes a work better or worse. You could make a strong case that the Cowboy Bebop dub is better than the original, especially in the Mushroom Samba episode. It doesn't matter that some art forger can paint better than the great masters. You want to see the original in as much an unadulterated fashion as possible, regardless of which adaptation is superior.
It's not about what version is better or worse. It's about what version is as close to the original experience as possible.
It's not about what version is better or worse. It's about what version is as close to the original experience as possible.
This comes down to what's more important, the intent of the artist or the pleasure of the viewer/consumer/appreciator, no? And I think that's subjective.
I will pretty much insist to anyone that the dub of Cowboy Bebop is superior to the sub throughout. I've tried to watch the sub and it was painful. The attitude of the characters was "lost" for me, the humor was "lost" for me, but then, I saw the dub multiple times before ever being exposed to the sub, so am I objective? Probably not, but I dunno if "objective" exists for this.
In terms of preserving the intent of the original creator, I agree that you are unassailably correct. But I don't think that's always the overriding concern.
...didn't Steven Universe do an episode about this involving T-shirts? :P
Speaking to the original question in the OP: what's the "real deal"? Is the real deal the original artistic intent? If so, subs all the way.
It doesn't matter that some art forger can paint better than the great masters. You want to see the original in as much an unadulterated fashion as possible, regardless of which adaptation is superior.
Really? Because it did, like, a post ago when you were busy saying that the "remix" version that is clearly inferior, and arguing that you can only get the experience by looking at the original - So, are you saying that all these people who had that experience of looking at the original, because they didn't know they weren't, are invalid? That their experiences didn't happen, because they don't conform to your narrow thinking? That the experiences of the people who saw the real thing after are some how superior, even though practically none of them would have been able to tell the difference?
Honestly, this is like wine snobbery, just with cartoons instead of beverages. Just a case of "Stop liking what I don't like", tarted up in pretentious notions of the "Correct" way to do things.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking or valid experiences.
It's about authenticity.
Let's say you call me up on the phone, but I don't speak your language. So there's a person who is connected to us on the line that is translating. That person might be a really great conversationalist who takes what I say and makes it sound so much better. But now you're getting them and not me. You might like them better than you like me, that's fine. But that's not the goal. The goal is for us to communicate, and that translator is only there because of necessity. They should minimize their presence and try to translate as faithfully as possible.
So one day we learn each other's languages and communicate directly. You find out I'm nothing like you thought I was. You were hearing too much of the voice of the translator and not my voice. It was all a lie.
That's what a dub is. It's a lie. It's concealing the truth of the original work. Every adaptation is a lie, even with subtitles. Lies are often better than truth, but that doesn't make them desirable. You should seek the truth at all times. And in art that means maximizing authenticity, even at the expense of quality.
And that's entirely subjective. That's down to whether you CARE about the original intent of the artist(s), and it's not a given that you should in all cases. It's not wrong to enjoy something that is essentially a derivative work over the original authentic version (which arguably a dub is, even if very slightly.)
And that's entirely subjective. That's down to whether you CARE about the original intent of the artist(s), and it's not a given that you should in all cases. It's not wrong to enjoy something that is essentially a derivative work over the original authentic version (which arguably a dub is, even if very slightly.)
If you don't care, then you are anti-intellectual.
I don't think so. I'm aware of art. I'm aware of why people perform or create art. There's plenty of art to go around.
Cowboy Bebop is a great example for this. The dub is amazing. I love the dub. The dub is an amazing piece of work that both I and my daughter enjoy. It's a common experience that is one of many that have brought us closer together as a family because it's a touchstone in our communication along with dozens of other works we've enjoyed together.
The sub, neither of us could sit through. Not for more than 2 episodes and then we were done.
I think the folks who brought us Bebop were brilliant, but the original is just inferior to the dub. It just is, in our subjective opinion, which is just as wholly valid as the artists' intentions.
Being aware of it, but not liking it, isn't anti-intellectual.
To be fair, saying I don't CARE is probably the wrong phrasing. More like, I don't think the author's original intent overrides the validity of my enjoyment of an alternate presentation.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking or valid experiences.
It's about authenticity.
And next up, is the Merlot, with lovely notes of blackberry and leather.
We've gotten down to the arguments that are literally the same that I've heard a hundred times as to why you should drink Penfold's grange over a cheap, tasty cleanskin, and the two simply aren't even in the same leauge.
If art isn't about enjoyment or quality then it's a sad world. There's art for statement and there's art for entertainment and there's art that mixes the two.
Anime is mostly for entertainment. If I'm not entertained, it's failed art.
The more something has been modified, the harder it is to understand. Try studying a fossil that has been tampered with. Even if the fossil looks a lot nicer now, it's much harder to learn anything about the dinosaur.
If you care more about the fossil looking nice than you care about learning about the dinosaur, then you are anti-intellectual.
The more something has been modified, the harder it is to understand. Try studying a fossil that has been tampered with. Even if the fossil looks a lot nicer now, it's much harder to learn anything about the dinosaur.
If you care more about the fossil looking nice than you care about learning about the dinosaur, then you are anti-intellectual.
Absolutely. I agree with this without qualification.
Here's two scenarios, though:
Scenario 1: An artist walks out into a beautiful grassy field full of violets and picks five dozen of them, leaving behind thousands. He grinds them up and extracts their pigment in order to create a beautiful painting on stretched canvas. The painting is hung in a museum and is received well by critics.
Scenario 2: An artist charters a boat out to an isolated island where a rare species of violet uniquely grows, it's found nowhere else on the planet. He gathers up every available specimen, grinds them up and extracts their pigment in order to create a beautiful painting on stretched canvas. The painting is hung in a museum, but is taken down after international controversy. Critique is mostly negative although a few say that the work is far more impactful than it might have been because of the permanent extinction of a species was part of its creation.
In Scenario 1 the 'derivative' art doesn't impede learning about the original artifact. There's plenty more "copies" available for study and both can co-exist and anyone can experience either one.
in Scenario 2 the artist has probably committed an international crime and deserves his criticism because he's destroyed the original artifact utterly and it can never be studied or experienced again, leaving only his derivative work from which anyone inclined can extract as much as possible.
The guy in Scenario 2 is an asshole and his actions were anti-intellectual. Guy 1, not so much.
People who enjoy Painting 1 and prefer it to the violets but are still aware that the violets exist... anti-intellectual? I wouldn't say so. They appreciate a work that's abstracted from original material(s).
People who enjoy Painting 2 could arguably be said to be supporting anti-intellectual destruction of the original materials.
Dubs are way less abstracted from the original material than a painting from flower pigments, or a copy of a painting, or a fake painting fraudulently claimed to be from a well known and respected artist. They also don't destroy the original experience and aren't mutually exclusive with it.
Hey. Once again we are in the argument where Scott proves that he is soulless automation of a robot, unable to understand art or beauty and does his best to define those with objective measurable traits.
And on the topic, I always prefer to get sub over dub, but I've watched stuff subbed since I moved away for m movies and series made for babies. But other people are free to and should enjoy things in the way they find best to them. Of course I think that experiencing the original work as it was made is optimal but that's not always viable and if you have to turn to imperfect translation, you might as well go all the way with it and watch dub.
Hey. Once again we are in the argument where Scott proves that he is soulless automation of a robot, unable to understand art or beauty and does his best to define those with objective measurable traits.
And on the topic, I always prefer to get sub over dub, but I've watched stuff subbed since I moved away for m movies and series made for babies. But other people are free to and should enjoy things in the way they find best to them. Of course I think that experiencing the original work as it was made is optimal but that's not always viable and if you have to turn to imperfect translation, you might as well go all the way with it and watch dub.
I used to have this philosophy, but I was wrong.
If you can't have it be 100% perfect, may as well have it be imperfect!
If I can't have a whole bagel, who wants to eat a half a bagel? I'll just have no bagel.
And then you're way more hungry than you would have been with half a bagel.
Perfection is impossible, but still get as close as you can within reason.
Hey. Once again we are in the argument where Scott proves that he is soulless automation of a robot, unable to understand art or beauty and does his best to define those with objective measurable traits.
I think that's more than a little bit unfair. I've no doubt that Scott can understand and appreciate art in all it's varied forms, he's not a man incapable of understanding these things. Not so good at talking about it sometimes, maybe, and his analogies haven't improved much over time, but that's not the same thing at all.
Edit - I would accept "A bit pretentious" though, considering.
Also, for the record - I tend strongly to prefer subs, but there's a few dubs I'm fond of. Including Ghost Stories, where the comedy dub is much better than the relatively bland original.
Isn't intellectual stimulation life's greatest pleasure? It is for me. Is it not for others as well? Some posts in this thread seem to be presenting a false dichotomy that a more intellectual pursuit is necessarily less enjoyable than the alternative. As if we have to choose between smart/unenjoyable and shallow/enjoyable.
The pleasure part is entirely dependent on the person. There are indeed people who find something more pleasurable the more intellectually stimulating it is. There are also those who feel the opposite, and of course everywhere in-between.
Nobody is denying what anyone's feelings are. Nobody is saying that someone doesn't actually enjoy a dub more. If they say they enjoy it more, then there is no reason to disbelieve them. And they have a right to watch that dub they enjoy more. Everyone can do whatever they like.
What I am doing, without reservation, is judging people based upon their taste. If someone comes and tells me they really like horrible pedo manga, I'm going to judge that they are a horrible person I never want to be near ever again. If someone tells me that they only enjoy sad crying clown French art house films, I'm going to judge them to be a pretentious dickbag. If someone tells me they only enjoy hollywood action blockbusters, I'm going to judge them to be shallow and dimwitted.
If someone finds the simple act of reading subtitles to be a hassle, then that also says something about the quality of their character. And, as I do with all people, I am going to judge them. And the judgement I make will not be a good one! Oh no. It will be bad. The respect I have for that person will indeed decrease! Woe unto them. Woe!
Irrespective of all other factors, the Utena dub is objectively inferior to the subtitled version to an extreme degree. In this specific case, you should avoid that dub at all cost. It's really bad, and makes the show feel incredibly derpy.
On a wider note, the vast majority of anime dubs specifically are terrible. In that particular niche of media, they are to be avoided at all cost.
Isn't intellectual stimulation life's greatest pleasure? It is for me. Is it not for others as well?
Not nessissarily, no. While intellectual stimulation is certainly nice, I personally somewhat prefer adrenaline and movement, and the feeling of building things is about equal with intellectual stimulation in second place. Everybody gets their jollies a slightly(or vastly) different way.
Not to mention, not everybody gets intellectual stimulation the same way. I can't imagine you're a huge fan of accounting, and I know I'm not - my accountant sure as fuck is. He genuinely loves accounting, it just presses the right buttons for him. Double entry bookkeeping and tricky tax law are super his thing, he wakes up of a morning with a smile, because he gets to do accountancy for a living. He is living the fucking dream on the daily. I recon he's mad as a sack of hammers, but he's fucking good at accounting, so fair enough.
If someone finds the simple act of reading subtitles to be a hassle, then that also says something about the quality of their character.
The same could be said about judging someone's character for something as insignificant and pointless as if they like subtitles or not.
Irrespective of all other factors, the Utena dub is objectively inferior to the subtitled version to an extreme degree. In this specific case, you should avoid that dub at all cost. It's really bad, and makes the show feel incredibly derpy.
Reading is pretty fundamental to overall intelligence.
Fair, but that's not exclusive to subtitles. If some dude is putting down a decent book, two books a week, but doesn't like subtitles, then it doesn't tell us much. Or you come across a bloke like me, I don't mind subtitles, and I'm still FRCF village idiot for at least 6 years running.
Huh, fair enough then. Just picked an arbitrary activity that most people aren't into and I knew a person that was, but still, as long as you're picking up what I'm putting down.
And, as I do with all people, I am going to judge them. And the judgement I make will not be a good one! Oh no. It will be bad. The respect I have for that person will indeed decrease! Woe unto them. Woe!
So, we just watched the episode that ends with a Kangaroo getting knocked out. That whole episode was amazing. The bit with Saionji had such perfect comic timing. This whole show is nothing like I expected and is absolutely amazing.
On a more serious note the stuff with the piano and not really liking someone but just liking some ideal you have pinned to them kicked me right in the feels a few times, it was definitely something I did way back in the day before I realized how stupid and dehumanizing to the other person it was.
Comments
I still enjoy the Sailor Moon re-release because there was so much left out of the DiC version and it's like a whole new show, but the voice acting and changed names still feel odd to me. Sailor moon, though, is probably THE classic example of a sub-par dub that's inferior to subtitles. Not only is the dialog significantly changed along with character's names and sometimes personalities, but whole chunks of the show are left out as well.
Also, can you point to any actual concrete example of subtitles covering up important visuals in a movie? Professionally done subtitles are done in such a way as to avoid covering up important things. Notice how you could only come up with a hypothetical situation of subtitles ruining something. It is very hard to find an actual real example of something that is ruined by properly done subtitles. Meanwhile, I can point out numerous works other than Utena which were ruined by bad dubbing.
I would also like to point out that if you were to take any film class at any film school studying foreign film, they would never ever screen a dub. Even when a dub was available they would screen the film with subtitles without even thinking or discussing it. Groups like Criterion Collection only publish foreign films with subtitles, no dubs. The sub/dub debate is something that really only happens in unacademic communities, like anime fandom. Amongst film scholars subs are just taken for granted. There is no debate. Much like there is no debate about global warming amongst climate scientists, but only amongst anti-intellectuals.
Also, I deny your claim that somehow the visual aspect is more important than the audio aspect of film, television, or any other A/V medium. Remove the music from Star Wars, and it's garbage. Replace the music with the hamster dance, and it's a joke. Meanwhile, you can listen to the Star Wars soundtrack without the movie and it's still a masterpiece.
The importance of the visual and audible aspects of a film, respectively, are dependent on the work. How about that Initial D dub with the replaced music?
Also, everyone seems to have completely ignored the main point. It does not matter if an adaptation makes a work better or worse. You could make a strong case that the Cowboy Bebop dub is better than the original, especially in the Mushroom Samba episode. It doesn't matter that some art forger can paint better than the great masters. You want to see the original in as much an unadulterated fashion as possible, regardless of which adaptation is superior.
It's not about what version is better or worse. It's about what version is as close to the original experience as possible.
I will pretty much insist to anyone that the dub of Cowboy Bebop is superior to the sub throughout. I've tried to watch the sub and it was painful. The attitude of the characters was "lost" for me, the humor was "lost" for me, but then, I saw the dub multiple times before ever being exposed to the sub, so am I objective? Probably not, but I dunno if "objective" exists for this.
In terms of preserving the intent of the original creator, I agree that you are unassailably correct. But I don't think that's always the overriding concern.
...didn't Steven Universe do an episode about this involving T-shirts? :P
Speaking to the original question in the OP: what's the "real deal"? Is the real deal the original artistic intent? If so, subs all the way.
Honestly, this is like wine snobbery, just with cartoons instead of beverages. Just a case of "Stop liking what I don't like", tarted up in pretentious notions of the "Correct" way to do things.
It's about authenticity.
Let's say you call me up on the phone, but I don't speak your language. So there's a person who is connected to us on the line that is translating. That person might be a really great conversationalist who takes what I say and makes it sound so much better. But now you're getting them and not me. You might like them better than you like me, that's fine. But that's not the goal. The goal is for us to communicate, and that translator is only there because of necessity. They should minimize their presence and try to translate as faithfully as possible.
So one day we learn each other's languages and communicate directly. You find out I'm nothing like you thought I was. You were hearing too much of the voice of the translator and not my voice. It was all a lie.
That's what a dub is. It's a lie. It's concealing the truth of the original work. Every adaptation is a lie, even with subtitles. Lies are often better than truth, but that doesn't make them desirable. You should seek the truth at all times. And in art that means maximizing authenticity, even at the expense of quality.
Cowboy Bebop is a great example for this. The dub is amazing. I love the dub. The dub is an amazing piece of work that both I and my daughter enjoy. It's a common experience that is one of many that have brought us closer together as a family because it's a touchstone in our communication along with dozens of other works we've enjoyed together.
The sub, neither of us could sit through. Not for more than 2 episodes and then we were done.
I think the folks who brought us Bebop were brilliant, but the original is just inferior to the dub. It just is, in our subjective opinion, which is just as wholly valid as the artists' intentions.
Being aware of it, but not liking it, isn't anti-intellectual.
To be fair, saying I don't CARE is probably the wrong phrasing. More like, I don't think the author's original intent overrides the validity of my enjoyment of an alternate presentation.
It has nothing to do with enjoyment or quality.
It has nothing to do with enjoyment or quality.
We've gotten down to the arguments that are literally the same that I've heard a hundred times as to why you should drink Penfold's grange over a cheap, tasty cleanskin, and the two simply aren't even in the same leauge.
Anime is mostly for entertainment. If I'm not entertained, it's failed art.
Is that what Dragonball is? Aldnoah Zero?
Three's Company?
If you care more about the fossil looking nice than you care about learning about the dinosaur, then you are anti-intellectual.
Here's two scenarios, though:
Scenario 1: An artist walks out into a beautiful grassy field full of violets and picks five dozen of them, leaving behind thousands. He grinds them up and extracts their pigment in order to create a beautiful painting on stretched canvas. The painting is hung in a museum and is received well by critics.
Scenario 2: An artist charters a boat out to an isolated island where a rare species of violet uniquely grows, it's found nowhere else on the planet. He gathers up every available specimen, grinds them up and extracts their pigment in order to create a beautiful painting on stretched canvas. The painting is hung in a museum, but is taken down after international controversy. Critique is mostly negative although a few say that the work is far more impactful than it might have been because of the permanent extinction of a species was part of its creation.
In Scenario 1 the 'derivative' art doesn't impede learning about the original artifact. There's plenty more "copies" available for study and both can co-exist and anyone can experience either one.
in Scenario 2 the artist has probably committed an international crime and deserves his criticism because he's destroyed the original artifact utterly and it can never be studied or experienced again, leaving only his derivative work from which anyone inclined can extract as much as possible.
The guy in Scenario 2 is an asshole and his actions were anti-intellectual. Guy 1, not so much.
People who enjoy Painting 1 and prefer it to the violets but are still aware that the violets exist... anti-intellectual? I wouldn't say so. They appreciate a work that's abstracted from original material(s).
People who enjoy Painting 2 could arguably be said to be supporting anti-intellectual destruction of the original materials.
Dubs are way less abstracted from the original material than a painting from flower pigments, or a copy of a painting, or a fake painting fraudulently claimed to be from a well known and respected artist. They also don't destroy the original experience and aren't mutually exclusive with it.
And on the topic, I always prefer to get sub over dub, but I've watched stuff subbed since I moved away for m movies and series made for babies. But other people are free to and should enjoy things in the way they find best to them. Of course I think that experiencing the original work as it was made is optimal but that's not always viable and if you have to turn to imperfect translation, you might as well go all the way with it and watch dub.
If you can't have it be 100% perfect, may as well have it be imperfect!
If I can't have a whole bagel, who wants to eat a half a bagel? I'll just have no bagel.
And then you're way more hungry than you would have been with half a bagel.
Perfection is impossible, but still get as close as you can within reason.
Edit - I would accept "A bit pretentious" though, considering.
Also, for the record - I tend strongly to prefer subs, but there's a few dubs I'm fond of. Including Ghost Stories, where the comedy dub is much better than the relatively bland original.
The pleasure part is entirely dependent on the person. There are indeed people who find something more pleasurable the more intellectually stimulating it is. There are also those who feel the opposite, and of course everywhere in-between.
Nobody is denying what anyone's feelings are. Nobody is saying that someone doesn't actually enjoy a dub more. If they say they enjoy it more, then there is no reason to disbelieve them. And they have a right to watch that dub they enjoy more. Everyone can do whatever they like.
What I am doing, without reservation, is judging people based upon their taste. If someone comes and tells me they really like horrible pedo manga, I'm going to judge that they are a horrible person I never want to be near ever again. If someone tells me that they only enjoy sad crying clown French art house films, I'm going to judge them to be a pretentious dickbag. If someone tells me they only enjoy hollywood action blockbusters, I'm going to judge them to be shallow and dimwitted.
If someone finds the simple act of reading subtitles to be a hassle, then that also says something about the quality of their character. And, as I do with all people, I am going to judge them. And the judgement I make will not be a good one! Oh no. It will be bad. The respect I have for that person will indeed decrease! Woe unto them. Woe!
Irrespective of all other factors, the Utena dub is objectively inferior to the subtitled version to an extreme degree. In this specific case, you should avoid that dub at all cost. It's really bad, and makes the show feel incredibly derpy.
On a wider note, the vast majority of anime dubs specifically are terrible. In that particular niche of media, they are to be avoided at all cost.
Not to mention, not everybody gets intellectual stimulation the same way. I can't imagine you're a huge fan of accounting, and I know I'm not - my accountant sure as fuck is. He genuinely loves accounting, it just presses the right buttons for him. Double entry bookkeeping and tricky tax law are super his thing, he wakes up of a morning with a smile, because he gets to do accountancy for a living. He is living the fucking dream on the daily. I recon he's mad as a sack of hammers, but he's fucking good at accounting, so fair enough. The same could be said about judging someone's character for something as insignificant and pointless as if they like subtitles or not. Well, yeah. I thought we already settled that?
Also, I kinda of like accounting.
On a more serious note the stuff with the piano and not really liking someone but just liking some ideal you have pinned to them kicked me right in the feels a few times, it was definitely something I did way back in the day before I realized how stupid and dehumanizing to the other person it was.